encountered a pvp fight where after 15ish min of nobody dying both groups walked away

Wing

I admit I was on a tanky heal necro, and thus didn't help the issue, but I had recently converted from a burst dps necro pre patch because of the HORENDOUS PERFORMANCE and not really being able to combo anything, let alone just use skills.

so encountered a tussle and moved to help my comrades. . .

. . .after about 15 minutes of a roughly 5v5 and both sides realizing neither could do anything individuals began just standing there doing nothing to register their annoyance, if attacked they would heal, but everyone became apathetic and stood there, after about 10 seconds of everyone standing and doing nothing, we both just walked away from each other and everyone went about doing their thing.

I left pvp shortly there after.

went back in today sadly around prime time, was able to set a meatbag up and fire it right next to a door siege because the lag and dealy was so bad (roughly 4 full seconds) that nobody could actually do anything about it, could not attack me, could not burn the siege, raids standing around TRYING to fight but just nothing.

I left pvp shortly there after.

Noctus

self heal on heavy armor is problematic. whats also problematic is we dont have enough heal reducing skills and not enough reduction on skills.

seriously u dont even feel 30 % reduction of mayor defile becouse u have other buffs up working against it.

Wing

Noctus wrote: »

self heal on heavy armor is problematic. whats also problematic is we dont have enough heal reducing skills and not enough reduction on skills.

seriously u dont even feel 30 % reduction of mayor defile becouse u have other buffs up working against it.

I would prefer healing be separated into its own stat block rather then linked to damage.

not even major defile access is the problem anymore, as more and more classes have access to cleanse.

when you think that ONLY templar had access to cleanse at launch, 1/4 classes, and every new class has had it included in their kit, now half of all classes can self cleanse.

same issue with things like snare removal or even worse things like race against time.

you just cannot debuff and lock people down anymore, thus a burst meta, and then a tank meta to counter the bust, and now nobody dies.

Toc de Malsvi

Wing wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

self heal on heavy armor is problematic. whats also problematic is we dont have enough heal reducing skills and not enough reduction on skills.

seriously u dont even feel 30 % reduction of mayor defile becouse u have other buffs up working against it.

I would prefer healing be separated into its own stat block rather then linked to damage.

not even major defile access is the problem anymore, as more and more classes have access to cleanse.

when you think that ONLY templar had access to cleanse at launch, 1/4 classes, and every new class has had it included in their kit, now half of all classes can self cleanse.

same issue with things like snare removal or even worse things like race against time.

you just cannot debuff and lock people down anymore, thus a burst meta, and then a tank meta to counter the bust, and now nobody dies.

We have always been moving toward nobody dying. Every time someone died they complained until something got nerfed.

Noctus

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

self heal on heavy armor is problematic. whats also problematic is we dont have enough heal reducing skills and not enough reduction on skills.

seriously u dont even feel 30 % reduction of mayor defile becouse u have other buffs up working against it.

I would prefer healing be separated into its own stat block rather then linked to damage.

not even major defile access is the problem anymore, as more and more classes have access to cleanse.

when you think that ONLY templar had access to cleanse at launch, 1/4 classes, and every new class has had it included in their kit, now half of all classes can self cleanse.

same issue with things like snare removal or even worse things like race against time.

you just cannot debuff and lock people down anymore, thus a burst meta, and then a tank meta to counter the bust, and now nobody dies.

We have always been moving toward nobody dying. Every time someone died they complained until something got nerfed.

this comment is gold. ur absolutely right

redspecter23

Bring back uber dots, one shot siege and buff all defiles by 250%. Everyone can be a champ and if players are still too tanky, double these buffs until we're all piles of goo. I'm not even kidding.

technohic

I get that there is a tank/mitagation via raw damage reduction, healing, or armor meta; but thats really small of an issue right now when performance is so terrible. You cant get burst combos to go so its all about numbers attacking a single target. Its really terrible play right now.

Ive had what the OP describes before the patch though in a 1v1 with the lag. It became clear that neither of us were going to die because we couldnt chain abilities together. Now its just beyond ridiculous.

MaskedHuman

nerf vigor, rapid regen, mortal coil, blackrose dw, and blackrose resto.

amir412

Noctus wrote: »

self heal on heavy armor is problematic. whats also problematic is we dont have enough heal reducing skills and not enough reduction on skills.

seriously u dont even feel 30 % reduction of mayor defile becouse u have other buffs up working against it.

what if i told u that i have more healings on medium armor?

Moonsorrow

amir412 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

self heal on heavy armor is problematic. whats also problematic is we dont have enough heal reducing skills and not enough reduction on skills.

seriously u dont even feel 30 % reduction of mayor defile becouse u have other buffs up working against it.

what if i told u that i have more healings on medium armor?

Same for me.

No idea why still so many assume that when you are generally "tanky" and/or good self healings one is on Heavy Armor.. can build as tanky and with better healing AND damage on 5 Medium or 5 Light parts.

universal_wrath

Wing wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

self heal on heavy armor is problematic. whats also problematic is we dont have enough heal reducing skills and not enough reduction on skills.

seriously u dont even feel 30 % reduction of mayor defile becouse u have other buffs up working against it.

I would prefer healing be separated into its own stat block rather then linked to damage.

not even major defile access is the problem anymore, as more and more classes have access to cleanse.

when you think that ONLY templar had access to cleanse at launch, 1/4 classes, and every new class has had it included in their kit, now half of all classes can self cleanse.

same issue with things like snare removal or even worse things like race against time.

you just cannot debuff and lock people down anymore, thus a burst meta, and then a tank meta to counter the bust, and now nobody dies.

That is true, the new class becoming more and more powerful each patch with addition to powerful buffs/debuffs. One the other hand, older classes are just getting dragged down by removing buffs/debuffs that were unique to their class and accessable to DLC classes, things like minor protection for sorcs, toggle pets, defile incap, fracture surprise attacks and so on...

Zos should stop and rebalance/adjust/redo old classes to bring them up to new ones instead of dragging down new ones to old ones. First step to do that is stop with the standrization thing and make classes unique like they used to be 5 years ago.

WacArnold

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

self heal on heavy armor is problematic. whats also problematic is we dont have enough heal reducing skills and not enough reduction on skills.

seriously u dont even feel 30 % reduction of mayor defile becouse u have other buffs up working against it.

I would prefer healing be separated into its own stat block rather then linked to damage.

not even major defile access is the problem anymore, as more and more classes have access to cleanse.

when you think that ONLY templar had access to cleanse at launch, 1/4 classes, and every new class has had it included in their kit, now half of all classes can self cleanse.

same issue with things like snare removal or even worse things like race against time.

you just cannot debuff and lock people down anymore, thus a burst meta, and then a tank meta to counter the bust, and now nobody dies.

We have always been moving toward nobody dying. Every time someone died they complained until something got nerfed.

This is the problem when I first started playing this game people died, people complained, and nerfs. What needs to happen is now that this game has been out for a while and players understand how to play things need to go back to launch. Devs should nut up and stop listening to the forums about combat all that has resulted are changes that make every patch garbage.

Kadoin

That's what happens when power is removed from classes and placed almost exclusively in gear. You either have the gear to counter them or you don't.

Lord-Otto

Damage needs a buff across the board.

Abyssmol

MaskedHuman wrote: »

nerf vigor, rapid regen, mortal coil, blackrose dw, and blackrose resto.

And shuffle...

LeHarrt91

I find that it is too easy to get 30k+ health. Even my MagDen can hit 27K with Toughness.
Then add the max health bonus of heavy armor and the healing received and no one dies.

dazee

Healing should keep scaling on weapon/spell damage for the simple reason that changing it would destroy the playstyle of anyone who's not a meta chasing sheep.

Abyssmol

Why people keep jumping on Heavy Armor. Take a look at medium armor. Shuffle 25% reduction in damage to aoe, BDW weapons major protection with very high uptime ( both, great damage mitigation for stamina users). That's far more damage mitigation that heavy can provide plus all the nice bonuses of medium. Just stop.... if you think that heavy is so strong then use it and get off the nerf train...

Emma_Overload

dazee wrote: »

Healing should keep scaling on weapon/spell damage for the simple reason that changing it would destroy the playstyle of anyone who's not a meta chasing sheep.

Yep. Solo play would be finished if they separated healing effectiveness too much from damage.

dazee

Emma_Overload wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Healing should keep scaling on weapon/spell damage for the simple reason that changing it would destroy the playstyle of anyone who's not a meta chasing sheep.

Yep. Solo play would be finished if they separated healing effectiveness too much from damage.

That and it would support the idiotic idea that healers should not be doing damage.

If someone wants to be a pacifist healer who wont dps at all, its not my problem, as long as they keep us alive.

But if someone insists "Healers should never dps" then they can seriously throw themselves off a cliff because they want to ruin someone elses (more logical) playstyle.

LeHarrt91

Abyssmol wrote: »

Why people keep jumping on Heavy Armor. Take a look at medium armor. Shuffle 25% reduction in damage to aoe, BDW weapons major protection with very high uptime ( both, great damage mitigation for stamina users). That's far more damage mitigation that heavy can provide plus all the nice bonuses of medium. Just stop.... if you think that heavy is so strong then use it and get off the nerf train...

You know that Blade Cloak grants Evasion right? So using BRP DW with Shuffle is useless, and Heavy Armor can still use BRP weapons. But the Major Protection from BRP DW only last 3s on an expensive skill.

Wing

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Why people keep jumping on Heavy Armor. Take a look at medium armor. Shuffle 25% reduction in damage to aoe, BDW weapons major protection with very high uptime ( both, great damage mitigation for stamina users). That's far more damage mitigation that heavy can provide plus all the nice bonuses of medium. Just stop.... if you think that heavy is so strong then use it and get off the nerf train...

You know that Blade Cloak grants Evasion right? So using BRP DW with Shuffle is useless, and Heavy Armor can still use BRP weapons. But the Major Protection from BRP DW only last 3s on an expensive skill.

yeah I actually don't see that many people rocking BRP DW personally, as you have to rock DW on a bar and it lasts only 3 seconds.

shuffle is more common, I personally rock the elude + forward momentum combo on my stam DK

back bar would be S/B, elude, dk armor, dk shield, vigor, cauterize, undo. front bar 2H with FM on it.

wheem_ESO

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Damage needs a buff across the board.

I think they need to simultaneously nerf both damage and healing. All too often fights are on one extreme or the other; either people explode really fast, or are virtually immortal. Buffing damage - unless perhaps it's exclusively DOTs - makes the first part worse while not necessarily fixing the second part. There would still be many instances where someone gets almost 1-shot, but manages to heal back up during a dodge roll, whereupon they immediately turn and 1-shot someone else.

Personally, I hate it when MMO PvP feels like a first person shooter. Getting kills should take a little time and effort vs anyone who's decent at the game and in reasonable gear. But they shouldn't be able to tank/avoid all day, either. It's difficult to get that balance just right, and is essentially impossible to do for CP-PvP, I think.

idk

I have not been in a small group v small group where no side won but I have been in such a fight where it took a long time because both groups were fairly equally yoked. It was a good fight but eventually, we took out some of their players which caused them to fold.

Kidgangster101

dazee wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Healing should keep scaling on weapon/spell damage for the simple reason that changing it would destroy the playstyle of anyone who's not a meta chasing sheep.

Yep. Solo play would be finished if they separated healing effectiveness too much from damage.

That and it would support the idiotic idea that healers should not be doing damage.

If someone wants to be a pacifist healer who wont dps at all, its not my problem, as long as they keep us alive.

But if someone insists "Healers should never dps" then they can seriously throw themselves off a cliff because they want to ruin someone elses (more logical) playstyle.

So your way is the only right way to play a game? Lol so do you want balance at all?

Right now damage increases your heals so the meta is let me get 7k weapon damage so I can have the best heals in the game this creating one real playstyle hence the word meta.

If you made them separate you would have to change your build so you can live enough and do enough damage rather than having the ability to nuke someone that isn't meta in 2 seconds......

Am I an idiot to see how this is THE PROBLEM?

I always laugh at people complaining about tanks..... Guess what? An actual tank can't do damage back so build your ultimate off him and kill his team.

People are healing too much? Seperate healing/damage and make people either be a damage dealer or a healer or a tank or build a hybrid and not be amazing at all but decent at them...... Maybe I am thinking of it logically here we are playing a MMO after all.

Look what it is doing for the "healer" playstyle in vet pve.... Good groups can go tank with 3 dps slotting self heals so now the healer isn't needed at all........ But you make their heals less and now they need the healer all of a sudden.

And the game needs to stop trying to cater to solo play that is killing it for certain. Moves shouldn't be nerfed because of 1v1 when the only actual 1v1 mode in the game is a duel.......... We have GROUP PLAY PVP if you choose to play solo in a MMO that's on you lol.

Qbiken

First step in my opinion is to add soft cap/diminishing returns or hard cap on max HP in PvP. There should be diminishing returns on HP above 25k HP (50% reduced efficiency for every 5k HP above 25k). If you can be brought down to execute range without too much hassle, healing can remain as it is today.

But when you can reach 35k HP without even bothering building for it, you will rarely be brought down low enough for your enemies to make use of their executes.The mentality where people build tanky just to avoid dying (basically damage sponges) also needs to stop.

Healing based of max HP should not be a thing. Get rid if the hp scaling on artic blast/wind and give magden a propper stun through that skill instead.

DoT damage should be increased by around 15-20% so they're not trash as they're today.

Cast times on ultimates needs to go (big culprit to the tankmeta is the added cast times on ultimates)

Minor main should be brought down to 8% instead of the current 15%

Impregnable armor is still a ridiculous overperforming set. Until we get an offensive set that offers unconditional 30% increased crit damage, impregnable needs to be tuned down.

Reduce group size in PvP to 12 and only allow healing/cross healing with the people you're grouped with. For those who says the game is meant for "large scale PvP", you can run multiple 12 man if you truly desire so.

Reduce the tooltips on vigor and radiating/rapid regeneration by 10-15 % and allow resolving vigor to cross heal again (but for 50% of the selfheal tooltip).

Edit: and no I don't main whatever you think I main in PvP.

puupaa

Ran into a similar thing that OP did twoish years ago when playing a tanky Warden and it caused me to not want to play pvp anymore, six months later I made as bursty as possible build I could get away with and have a lot of fun playing it. Sure I can die very easily and it isn't that great against more effective builds, but at least if I ran into a copy of myself out there the fight would be a lot of fun instead of a stalemate you know?

Since people seem to be suggesting things, I'll do as well.

Make block cost scale based on the amount of damage you block (anyone know if spamming light attack is the optimal way to drain stamina from someone who is blocking?).

Make building for mitigation have steeper diminishing returns. Currently someone who has invested more of their potential damage into mitigation will hit someone who has invested less for more hp damage with the same skill, assuming both characters are built and played well. That's pretty dumb tbh.

StShoot

Noctus wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

self heal on heavy armor is problematic. whats also problematic is we dont have enough heal reducing skills and not enough reduction on skills.

seriously u dont even feel 30 % reduction of mayor defile becouse u have other buffs up working against it.

I would prefer healing be separated into its own stat block rather then linked to damage.

not even major defile access is the problem anymore, as more and more classes have access to cleanse.

when you think that ONLY templar had access to cleanse at launch, 1/4 classes, and every new class has had it included in their kit, now half of all classes can self cleanse.

same issue with things like snare removal or even worse things like race against time.

you just cannot debuff and lock people down anymore, thus a burst meta, and then a tank meta to counter the bust, and now nobody dies.

We have always been moving toward nobody dying. Every time someone died they complained until something got nerfed.

this comment is gold. ur absolutely right

But its also true vise versa if someone cant kill a thing they complain until the defencive skill/set gets nerfed into oblivion


Regarding the op, its not so mutch the healing or the heavy amor (ha got nerfed multiple times) the bigest problem is that there are to many ways to get a % advantage and the cross healing.
On the necro for example you can get over 50% dmg mitigation, thats just *** high, at the same time you have things like the brp restro go rampage for magica classes. Also the curent cps system makes maxed out palyers nearly immortal, but even in no cp players hardly die

The nerf to dots (that everyone wanted) didnt help the meta either, since a single hot can outheal several dots.

In my opinion zos should do something against crosshealing (maybe reduce healing by 50% in pvp [like they allready have] and cross healing by 75% or even more).
Before all the self-appointed healers throw their pitchforks and torches at me that these changes would render healers useless in pvp .... yes, it would be harder for you guys to heal up your group, but you would still get your ap for free xD.
If someone builds for tankyness and high heals (pariah+ trollking/bloodspawn etc) they should be hard to kill thats the whole reason for using these sets.
But when a glasscanon or even a tanky player gets healed by two pocket healers, thats another story. It makes the game unenjoyable for every side:
Solo or smallscale players have a hard time finishing someone of who gets crosshealed by X persons.
Zerggroups (or big random groups) have a hard time finishing of guild groups.
And guild groups, well those run rampage until the zerg reaches their critical mass and it doesnt matter what changes in the meta, organized groups will always be ahead of random groups.


Sorry for my bad english i hope its understandable =X

Kaysha

Just let all buffs and debuffs be affected by battle spirit.

30% major protection --> 15% major protection
25% major mending --> 13% major mending
and so on

No more medium armor dodge rollers with 30% major protection and 30% speed.

You want to do damage? good, but you will die fast, too.
You want to be able to take some hits? Ok, but you won´t do a lot of damage.
Make armor weights count again!

Fawn4287

Kaysha wrote: »

Just let all buffs and debuffs be affected by battle spirit.

30% major protection --> 15% major protection
25% major mending --> 13% major mending
and so on

No more medium armor dodge rollers with 30% major protection and 30% speed.

You want to do damage? good, but you will die fast, too.
You want to be able to take some hits? Ok, but you won´t do a lot of damage.
Make armor weights count again!

What about magsorc? It does everything, its the most mobile class in the game without a major or minor expedition buff barred, shields make is capable of taking many hits and it has the best burst combo every patch, you essentially force a permanent magsorc meta

Gilvoth

the stupid healing is way too over powered.
and there isn't enough damage output.