This Isn't Final Fantasy 14.

DRTE

Just stop with the cast times and delays this isn't FF14. its not the game we want here. Fast paced combat is what made ESO, ESO. Zos please stop and go back to the original drawing board.

Thevampirenight

Better Cast times then cool downs. fast paced doesn't mean you can cast abilties right away and spam them. Fast paced is being able to cast your abilties anytime you want. Doesn't mean you don't have to prepare the spells first. Some abilties should have cast times and other abilties shouldn't. If it helps performance cast times should be added. More complex magic might require more time to cast. Others are instant. Doesn't mean cast times are killing fast paced combat.

Chaos2088

Basically just get the game working yeah? hehe

DRTE

cooldowns i can deal with on status effects like they always have but skills that have cast times to fire or skill delays is just toxic to the original design of the game it feel's like they're trying to be another generic MMO.

Thevampirenight

DRTE wrote: »

cooldowns i can deal with on status effects like they always have but skills that have cast times to fire or skill delays is just toxic to the original design of the game it feel's like they're trying to be another generic MMO.

They might have to be for performance reasons. Because the servers can only handle so much as they were not designed to work like they do now I'm sure of that because of how the game use to work before they changed calculations to be server side. That is why I made this thread. I will just say its a hard pill that many players might find difficult to swallow.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/515324/fast-combat-with-performance-decline-vs-slow-combat-and-performance-increase-red-pill-or-blue-pill#latest

Justosay

DRTE wrote: »

Just stop with the cast times and delays this isn't FF14. its not the game we want here. Fast paced combat is what made ESO, ESO. Zos please stop and go back to the original drawing board.

Excuse me, who are those "we"? For example, I didn't give you my voice...
But you are right that this is not FF14... and not WoW, and not Everquest, and not... (all of them have abilities with cast time)
So, what is your trouble?

precambria

Fast is having something work when you press it, cast times won't reduce input lag it will just make the spells take super long and we might as well go play something else, what's next lol making weapon damage just auto swing to "improve performance" any changes that are made to slow down the pace of combat is a huge NERF to skilled players and it's not addressing the performance issues at all the performance is worse than it has ever been by miles, if this is part of a phase of changes that will pan out to have even OK performance good but why is it on LIVE right now when it's broken.

If this is anything more than Lag if the intent is to slow down combat and make combo's not possible, who is going to carry people through content or entertain them with PVP streams when anyone who is good at the game leaves it because the combat sucks?

Justosay

precambria wrote: »

Fast is having something work when you press it, cast times won't reduce input lag it will just make the spells take super long and we might as well go play something else, what's next lol making weapon damage just auto swing to "improve performance" any changes that are made to slow down the pace of combat is a huge NERF to skilled players and it's not addressing the performance issues at all the performance is worse than it has ever been by miles, if this is part of a phase of changes that will pan out to have even OK performance good but why is it on LIVE right now when it's broken.

If this is anything more than Lag if the intent is to slow down combat and make combo's not possible, who is going to carry people through content or entertain them with PVP streams when anyone who is good at the game leaves it because the combat sucks?

This is not nerf to skilled players this nerf to those who win because of better hardware and better internet connection.
"I saw it first, I win" (and certainly it is not skill) kills pvp as was shown in many games, players must have ability to apply counter skill. And you are wrong if you think that it makes players be less skilled. If you stop playing, others skilled players take your place.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

How about ZoS works on skills going off when you press a button? Let's worry about the basics first hahaha.

dazee

DRTE wrote: »

Just stop with the cast times and delays this isn't FF14. its not the game we want here. Fast paced combat is what made ESO, ESO. Zos please stop and go back to the original drawing board.

I agree. ESO combat should feel like ESO combat. FF14 does many things better, but ESO is a different game and not everything FF14 does is right for ESO. ESO would do very well to learn from FF14 tanks and healers doing actual damage though.

precambria

Justosay wrote: »

precambria wrote: »

Fast is having something work when you press it, cast times won't reduce input lag it will just make the spells take super long and we might as well go play something else, what's next lol making weapon damage just auto swing to "improve performance" any changes that are made to slow down the pace of combat is a huge NERF to skilled players and it's not addressing the performance issues at all the performance is worse than it has ever been by miles, if this is part of a phase of changes that will pan out to have even OK performance good but why is it on LIVE right now when it's broken.

If this is anything more than Lag if the intent is to slow down combat and make combo's not possible, who is going to carry people through content or entertain them with PVP streams when anyone who is good at the game leaves it because the combat sucks?

This is not nerf to skilled players this nerf to those who win because of better hardware and better internet connection.
"I saw it first, I win" (and certainly it is not skill) kills pvp as was shown in many games, players must have ability to apply counter skill. And you are wrong if you think that it makes players be less skilled. If you stop playing, others skilled players take your place.

I have horrible lag all the time, because of where I live, with the recent patch causing everyone else to experience what I normally do personally I have been cleaning up but it's not as fun as when the game is running smoothly and the top Pvpers are actually playing.

There is nothing that can be done about hardware inequality, or access to bandwith, this is not Soviet Russia. SO how else would you measure skill other than the people who can think on their toes and react quickly with the appropriate action while also maintaining awareness of position enemy ults ECT.

"players must have the ability to apply counter skill" LOL , no they can't even figure out what happened to them so they blame "hax" or "premades" half of the kids I kill don't have any chance whatsoever until they practice at LEAST half as much as I have, it's called a skill curve for a reason there are people out there who I can only dream of outplaying all other factors being equal. Nobody will replace the people who have been playing since beta, even if all the top tier leave the B team will still be the B team it's just the quality of players as a whole will have degenerated as will the game itself if it continues to debase for participation trophy players.

And no I'm not an elitist I'm nowhere near the best at anything, at least I'm smart enough to see that there is learning to bee done instead of wanting the ceiling lowered

kathandira

DRTE wrote: »

Just stop with the cast times and delays this isn't FF14. its not the game we want here. Fast paced combat is what made ESO, ESO. Zos please stop and go back to the original drawing board.

Define "We".

I'm actually totally cool with a mix of instant casts and cast times pending on the skills and their effectiveness. It adds another layer of consideration of how you play your character. Imo, that is more interesting that everything being instant casts.

Zer0_CooL

Cast times are programed lag, change my mind.

TheGreatBlackBear

Damn right this isn't Final Fantasy 14! There's no raid finder, no deep water fishing and no complex and rewarding crafting systems. There's no ability to swap jobs on a given toon. And most importantly there's no lag free game play with a stable framrate.

WiseSky

Wait ... this is not FFIX ....

So my GF is not in a difference instance she is in another game...

Ksariyu

@precambria There's a reason even highly competitive games such as Overwatch and League, which are played by literal professionals on LAN connections, still have cast times or reaction times on high-impact, bursty abilities (Mostly ultimates). Pressing a button and instantly killing someone, especially in a game like ESO where aim is only semi-important, isn't considered skill by anyone except the person that got the kill. It's just cheap and honestly very boring, again, especially in a game like ESO where there's nothing preventing ten people from dropping those abilities on you at once.

Similarly, other fast-paced MMOs such as Tera and Blade and Soul also have many abilities with cast times, and the latter is still considered to have some of the most competitive, high-skill PvP in the genre. So let's not pretend this is some FFXIV-exclusive concept. It's a legit mechanic that many developers understand to be important to the balance of the game.

@Zer0_CooL Nobody's going to change your mind because you've already convinced yourself that your opinion is fact.

StormeReigns

Not really particularly paying attention to the thread. Say something about long cast times...

Iirc:
FFXIV cast times 2.5 to 5 seconds long
WoW cast times 1.5 to 6 seconds long
ESO cast times 0.4 to 1.5 seconds long

Veinblood1965

Justosay wrote: »

DRTE wrote: »

Just stop with the cast times and delays this isn't FF14. its not the game we want here. Fast paced combat is what made ESO, ESO. Zos please stop and go back to the original drawing board.

Excuse me, who are those "we"? For example, I didn't give you my voice...
But you are right that this is not FF14... and not WoW, and not Everquest, and not... (all of them have abilities with cast time)
So, what is your trouble?

And stay OUT of my yard! As the poor kids ball is deflated and tossed in the trash.

dazee

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Damn right this isn't Final Fantasy 14! There's no raid finder, no deep water fishing and no complex and rewarding crafting systems. There's no ability to swap jobs on a given toon. And most importantly there's no lag free game play with a stable framrate.

HA amazing, DEFINITELY true, there is no argument that ESO is on the same level of quality at all.

However ESO has potential since it does things differently in many ways, if only ZOS would focus on that and maybe finally start fixing bugs.

Justosay

precambria wrote: »

I have horrible lag all the time, because of where I live, with the recent patch causing everyone else to experience what I normally do personally I have been cleaning up but it's not as fun as when the game is running smoothly and the top Pvpers are actually playing.

There is nothing that can be done about hardware inequality, or access to bandwith, this is not Soviet Russia. SO how else would you measure skill other than the people who can think on their toes and react quickly with the appropriate action while also maintaining awareness of position enemy ults ECT.

"players must have the ability to apply counter skill" LOL , no they can't even figure out what happened to them so they blame "hax" or "premades" half of the kids I kill don't have any chance whatsoever until they practice at LEAST half as much as I have, it's called a skill curve for a reason there are people out there who I can only dream of outplaying all other factors being equal. Nobody will replace the people who have been playing since beta, even if all the top tier leave the B team will still be the B team it's just the quality of players as a whole will have degenerated as will the game itself if it continues to debase for participation trophy players.

And no I'm not an elitist I'm nowhere near the best at anything, at least I'm smart enough to see that there is learning to bee done instead of wanting the ceiling lowered

If you want to die because of your lag is your wish. But when data from your pc can't be transfered on the pc of your opponent in time because of your lagging and he sees you standing and then within a moment you do actions those you did on your computer within 5 sec and he even can't do something because those actions were in the past... I think it is very different case. And this is not a skill as i said. There is nothing can be done about hardware and bandwidth, so the best way to prevent it is increased timing.
You are very funny (btw) when wrote about "Soviet Russia" and equality. Thank you, i laughed much.
And again, players must have the ability to apply counter skill because "I saw it first, I win" (and certainly it is not skill) kills pvp as was shown in many games.
And no, there is no team A or team B, and experience of other games (more older than ESO) shows that game doesn't degenerates because of part of "old players" leaved.

Wrekkedd

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Better Cast times then cool downs. fast paced doesn't mean you can cast abilties right away and spam them. Fast paced is being able to cast your abilties anytime you want. Doesn't mean you don't have to prepare the spells first. Some abilties should have cast times and other abilties shouldn't. If it helps performance cast times should be added. More complex magic might require more time to cast. Others are instant. Doesn't mean cast times are killing fast paced combat.

You are part of the problem. Enjoy your barren exploration simulator.

ArchMikem

DRTE wrote: »

Just stop with the cast times and delays this isn't FF14. its not the game we want here. Fast paced combat is what made ESO, ESO. Zos please stop and go back to the original drawing board.

Combat was incredibly slow back in the "original drawing board". If you had no idea what the game was like back in 2014/15 then you dont know that the faster combat we have now is definitely not what ESO started with.

exeeter702

I find it humorous yet ultimately unsurprising that 14 is used as some kind of low bar when comparing eso.

14s combat while not action based, is anything but slow by the time you get to end game. Cast bars and channeled spells are in inherently bad for an online rpg

Dusk_Coven

precambria wrote: »

Fast is having something work when you press it

Except this loose definition can lead to all sorts of unintended consequences.
Such as people insisting on clicking Block repeatedly and rapidly to get the benefits of a sustained block without the same movement speed and resource costs associated with block or sustaining a block.

Fast-paced can just be shorter global cooldowns, such as in SWTOR where you can have builds on top of class abilities that give you really mad-high Alacrity, which basically shortens your global cooldown.
So in a controlled and intended combat system, you can still have fast combat where key presses are responsive -- when they are supposed and intended to be.
SWTOR even has a few defensive interrupt abilities that deliberately -- that is, entirely intentional -- ignore the global cooldown. But they carefully control that.

Even without talking about "fast combat" we can see from the many decisions on skills and sets that the combat team probably doesn't actually have any real plan or control for combat. And in a system that is supposedly DESIGNED, not having plan or control is just a ludicrous position to be in.

dazee

exeeter702 wrote: »

I find it humorous yet ultimately unsurprising that 14 is used as some kind of low bar when comparing eso.

14s combat while not action based, is anything but slow by the time you get to end game. Cast bars and channeled spells are not inherently bad for an online rpg

Oh hey someone who actually played the game more than a couple hours before pretending to know all about it!

Gilvoth

kathandira wrote: »

DRTE wrote: »

Just stop with the cast times and delays this isn't FF14. its not the game we want here. Fast paced combat is what made ESO, ESO. Zos please stop and go back to the original drawing board.

Define "We".

I'm actually totally cool with a mix of instant casts and cast times pending on the skills and their effectiveness. It adds another layer of consideration of how you play your character. Imo, that is more interesting that everything being instant casts.

this ^
also:
i love the new cast times and so do my friends.

illusiouk

That's telling them...

dazee

Gilvoth wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

DRTE wrote: »

Just stop with the cast times and delays this isn't FF14. its not the game we want here. Fast paced combat is what made ESO, ESO. Zos please stop and go back to the original drawing board.

Define "We".

I'm actually totally cool with a mix of instant casts and cast times pending on the skills and their effectiveness. It adds another layer of consideration of how you play your character. Imo, that is more interesting that everything being instant casts.

this ^
also:
i love the new cast times and so do my friends.

I dont like cast times in ESO, becuase I dont believe whats right for FFXIV is always right for ESO. FFXIV is an MMO heavily rooted in traditional MMO mechanics, while ESO only has a place in the market becuase of what it does DIFFERENTLY.

ESO must continue to distinguish itself from the classic boilerplate style MMOs.

FFXIV is a fantastic game, with challenging endgame and a good community as far as online games go. But it's also designed on a different engine, with a different vision in mind.

StormeReigns

dazee wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

DRTE wrote: »

Just stop with the cast times and delays this isn't FF14. its not the game we want here. Fast paced combat is what made ESO, ESO. Zos please stop and go back to the original drawing board.

Define "We".

I'm actually totally cool with a mix of instant casts and cast times pending on the skills and their effectiveness. It adds another layer of consideration of how you play your character. Imo, that is more interesting that everything being instant casts.

this ^
also:
i love the new cast times and so do my friends.

I dont like cast times in ESO, becuase I dont believe whats right for FFXIV is always right for ESO. FFXIV is an MMO heavily rooted in traditional MMO mechanics, while ESO only has a place in the market becuase of what it does DIFFERENTLY.

ESO must continue to distinguish itself from the classic boilerplate style MMOs.

FFXIV is a fantastic game, with challenging endgame and a good community as far as online games go. But it's also designed on a different engine, with a different vision in mind.

While cast times are an annoyance. They are HARDLY the issue others are trying to make them out to be. Sacrifice cast times and devs might reduce damage drastically to compensate for those abilities specifically or even worse... introduce the standard 2.5 to 3.5 second GCD system and have to wait even longer to use your next ability.

0.4 to 1.5 second cast times on certain abilities and ultimates are literally a non issue.

Always, remember, careful for what you wish for, you just might get it.

dazee

Would it not even out if there were no cast times? Damage on some skills may need to be adjusted but if done correctly we'd barely notice a difference.

The real issue is, can ZOS do it correctly?

Ksariyu

dazee wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

DRTE wrote: »

Just stop with the cast times and delays this isn't FF14. its not the game we want here. Fast paced combat is what made ESO, ESO. Zos please stop and go back to the original drawing board.

Define "We".

I'm actually totally cool with a mix of instant casts and cast times pending on the skills and their effectiveness. It adds another layer of consideration of how you play your character. Imo, that is more interesting that everything being instant casts.

this ^
also:
i love the new cast times and so do my friends.

I dont like cast times in ESO, becuase I dont believe whats right for FFXIV is always right for ESO. FFXIV is an MMO heavily rooted in traditional MMO mechanics, while ESO only has a place in the market becuase of what it does DIFFERENTLY.

ESO must continue to distinguish itself from the classic boilerplate style MMOs.

FFXIV is a fantastic game, with challenging endgame and a good community as far as online games go. But it's also designed on a different engine, with a different vision in mind.

This is kind of a joke honestly. ESO only has its place in the market because of A. Zenimax's insane bank account from the original ES series, to put towards marketing, and B. It's set in the ES universe, a beloved world with well established lore. If any other studio, save for Square Enix (Which FFXIV had a very similar launch to ESO, alongside having the same benefits I just mentioned), were to put out a game in the state that this one launched in, and even worse, have it still in the same state this many years down the road, they'd be shut down. 100%. Normal sized studios don't get to mess up as much as ZoS has lately and keep their playerbase.
Really, what does ESO have that's genuinely unique from other games? Aim-based combat? Tera's had it for years, as does BnS. Flexible skill system? Secret World arguably did this better, along with lesser known titles like Wildstar and even RIFT. Everything else is pretty standard, except this game has probably the least effective rendition of the holy trinity that I've ever seen.
As I previously stated, cast times are not exclusive to FFXIV, which seems to be the general view of this thread. It's a common mechanic, and for a good reason.