The crown store should be for lazy people, or busy people, not unlucky people

PizzaCat82

A good % of people this event did not get all the rewards due to RNG.

ZOS, please please please don't continue down this path with future events. I know you want more $$$ but at least put stuff we want to purchase (More mounts, hairstyles, costumes) in the crownstore instead of trying to get people to buy tickets for horrible RNG.

January1171

Your title summarizes the issue perfectly

January1171

Like, I have no problem with the crown store being an alternative for people who don't want to grind psijic skill again or people who don't have time to participate in every single event. And I don't mind some rewards requiring a moderate/high amount of effort to get (within reason, I don't consider the murkmire multiple boxes per day a high amount of effort because they were practically impossible to get and exceed a "high amount of effort") The crown store becomes problematic when it is the only solution to bad rng

ghastley

I don't think it's actual luck involved. RNG knows what you want, and steers you to the store.

/tinfoilhat

Kiralyn2000

I think a major part of it is this idea that you have to/should expect to "get all the rewards". (and get them now. I mean, the event will come around again next year. Heck, if you get all this years' rewards, they'll need to add more next year for you - and if they do that, new players will have an even bigger problem "getting it all".)

Why do you feel that way? And why do you feel that way strongly enough that you feel "forced" to spend money?


(seriously, it means that they can't add different rewards for people who just don't care about the current ones, because "gotta have it all" people will just yell that now they need Even More Tickets and how it's all a conspiracy to get $)


edit: personally, the only thing I definitely wanted from this event was a Feather (to complete the ice indrik for my ice character), and I got that on the second day. The pet was at least a bit interesting as a house decoration, so I was going to work on that one. Was well on my way by day 4, with two dropped parts and plenty of upcoming tickets. Of course, that minor desire wasn't enough to download the huge patch, so I ended up not getting it. But, still, it would have been trivial to get one mount bit (either a berry or feather) and one of the two collectables.

Chaos2088

Sneaky McSneakison has been at it again!!

LadyDestiny

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

A good % of people this event did not get all the rewards due to RNG.

ZOS, please please please don't continue down this path with future events. I know you want more $$$ but at least put stuff we want to purchase (More mounts, hairstyles, costumes) in the crownstore instead of trying to get people to buy tickets for horrible RNG.

I kind of feel that if you participate in said event everyday, you should acquire all pieces for momentoes, pets etc., and crown store for those that can't afford the time. That being said, I only got the gravestake parts playing every day, still needed to acquire the indrik feathers as well. There is no way to get enough tickets to acquire all these. Maybe event items need to to be not tied to the impresario outside of the indrik. I don't know. It was a pretty bad event this time. Not going to deny it. Even strongboxes were scarce. The best thing I got was one silver dawn motif. Mist was just treasure junk.

PizzaCat82

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I think a major part of it is this idea that you have to/should expect to "get all the rewards".

Why do you feel that way? And why do you feel that way strongly enough that you feel "forced" to spend money?


(seriously, it means that they can't add different rewards for people who just don't care about the current ones, because "gotta have it all" people will just yell that now they need Even More Tickets and how it's all a conspiracy to get $)

They add stuff to the crown store all the time, and I don't feel the need to complain about that stuff. No one does.

Why is it different with event rewards?

Because I pay with my time. I pay every time I port to Murkmire and talk in Zone chat. I pay when I group up to do those daily quests and help people kill those bosses.

Requiring I pay with my time and effort and then not giving me anything for it without real cash means they value my time and effort very very little. Every day I logged in, did those dailies, opened those strong boxes and got nothing.

Because to ZOS, I deserved nothing.

Kahnak

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I think a major part of it is this idea that you have to/should expect to "get all the rewards". (and get them now. I mean, the event will come around again next year. Heck, if you get all this years' rewards, they'll need to add more next year for you - and if they do that, new players will have an even bigger problem "getting it all".)

Why do you feel that way? And why do you feel that way strongly enough that you feel "forced" to spend money?


(seriously, it means that they can't add different rewards for people who just don't care about the current ones, because "gotta have it all" people will just yell that now they need Even More Tickets and how it's all a conspiracy to get $).

This is a point I've been making the whole time. Then those same people turn around and blame their compulsive behavior on ZOS, because neither agency nor personal responsibility exist.

Kiralyn2000

I guess I'm just semi-immune to "FOMO". I've been playing MMOs for like 15 years, and I've missed all sorts of stuff. Missing stuff is normal. It's not an insult, it's not an attack, it's just the way it is. /shrug

and then not giving me anything for it

Which is it? Not getting everything, or not getting anything? Because it was easy to get something this event. I was well on my way to the pet, personally. Even if I didn't get another drop from the daily box, the remaining tickets would have gotten it.

Even without any drops, someone who really wanted the pet or memento should have been able to get it (39 tickets dropped, 35 required for 7 fragments)


edit: it was also like 5 minutes a day. Popped out of a wayshrine, killed a handful of zone mobs, got tickets. Certainly don't feel like my time was disrespected.

Starlock

ghastley wrote: »

I don't think it's actual luck involved. RNG knows what you want, and steers you to the store.

/tinfoilhat

It's not "tin foil hat" though.

If you do some research into the industry these days, research is already being done for technology that allows predatory monetization to kick itself up a notch by targeting individual players and shifting odds for those specific people. Because odds disclosure is not required, we don't know if Zenimax is doing this yet. But considering this last event was a blatant con game and among the worst sorts of predatory monetization a game can get away with (hopefully not for long - may the law catch up with this sort of exploitative behavior) it would not surprise me at this point if they flagged "collector" players for poor RNG to coerce them into the cash shop.

Kiralyn2000

Starlock wrote: »

it would not surprise me at this point if they flagged "collector" players for poor RNG to coerce them into the cash shop.

Wow. I'm glad that I'm not so jaded about my hobby.

PizzaCat82

I can be mad that strongboxes were empty as well as mad that its impossible to get everything offered if you were not as lucky as some people. Both basically wasted my time.

Events are supposed to draw people to the zone and the rewards are supposed to help with that. Facebook, Instagram, and the main website all had pictures of both the rewards and one's expectations were to be able to get those by 1. Playing the game with the Murkmire DLC.

It is not selfish, to expect an event to work exactly like previous ones have for the last 2 years. It is not selfish, to want to obtain all the rewards being offered for free by playing in the zone and getting enough strongboxes. I know other MMOs are more of a cash grab, that does not make it ok.

The cries of "Its not that bad" or "quit being so selfish expecting things" is completely missing the point that this is just the beginning. As soon as they respect your wallet and disregard your time played means that everything will be up to RNG and you'll be debating pulling out that wallet at every event, not just the ones you were unlucky at.

HoosierPappy

Put me in charge of the store!!

jaws343

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

I can be mad that strongboxes were empty as well as mad that its impossible to get everything offered if you were not as lucky as some people. Both basically wasted my time.

Events are supposed to draw people to the zone and the rewards are supposed to help with that. Facebook, Instagram, and the main website all had pictures of both the rewards and one's expectations were to be able to get those by 1. Playing the game with the Murkmire DLC.

It is not selfish, to expect an event to work exactly like previous ones have for the last 2 years. It is not selfish, to want to obtain all the rewards being offered for free by playing in the zone and getting enough strongboxes. I know other MMOs are more of a cash grab, that does not make it ok.

The cries of "Its not that bad" or "quit being so selfish expecting things" is completely missing the point that this is just the beginning. As soon as they respect your wallet and disregard your time played means that everything will be up to RNG and you'll be debating pulling out that wallet at every event, not just the ones you were unlucky at.

But the problem with the "I have to pay money for this" sentiment is that you do not have to do that to get the items. You could pay gold for tickets from other players who are more than willing to part with their crowns. And then use those tickets, bought from in game gold, to buy the fragments.

A player's unwillingness to do this is on them.

Starlock

jaws343 wrote: »

But the problem with the "I have to pay money for this" sentiment is that you do not have to do that to get the items.

Yes, you do. That's the precident this event set and why it is so troubling.

jaws343 wrote: »

You could pay gold for tickets from other players...

... who still had to get those tickets with real world money. That's the problem. This event was designed to make it impossible for players to complete the event rewards without an injection of real world money unless they were extraordinarily lucky. To get all of the rewards offered this event, you would need 10 tickets for 1 berry, 10 tickets for 1 feather, and whopping 70 tickets for the collectibles. Generously assuming you got enough fragments to complete one collectible without using tickets, that still makes for a total of 55 tickets needed to complete the rest of the event. Guess how many tickets you could earn during this event by actually playing the game? Not 55.

They should have put the memento and pet in the cash shop directly. At least that would have been honest.

jaws343 wrote: »

A player's unwillingness to do this is on them.

Setting aside the fact that players buying tickets from other players still requires use of real world money, think about the fact that there is no safe and secure way for players to trade gold for cash shop items. Perhaps if Zenimax did what other games do and provided a built-in gold-to-crowns exchange that was safe and secure, you might have a point. But they haven't, and you don't.

PizzaCat82

jaws343 wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

I can be mad that strongboxes were empty as well as mad that its impossible to get everything offered if you were not as lucky as some people. Both basically wasted my time.

Events are supposed to draw people to the zone and the rewards are supposed to help with that. Facebook, Instagram, and the main website all had pictures of both the rewards and one's expectations were to be able to get those by 1. Playing the game with the Murkmire DLC.

It is not selfish, to expect an event to work exactly like previous ones have for the last 2 years. It is not selfish, to want to obtain all the rewards being offered for free by playing in the zone and getting enough strongboxes. I know other MMOs are more of a cash grab, that does not make it ok.

The cries of "Its not that bad" or "quit being so selfish expecting things" is completely missing the point that this is just the beginning. As soon as they respect your wallet and disregard your time played means that everything will be up to RNG and you'll be debating pulling out that wallet at every event, not just the ones you were unlucky at.

But the problem with the "I have to pay money for this" sentiment is that you do not have to do that to get the items. You could pay gold for tickets from other players who are more than willing to part with their crowns. And then use those tickets, bought from in game gold, to buy the fragments.

A player's unwillingness to do this is on them.

As far as ZOS is concerned, a buy is a buy. It doesn't matter who bought the tickets, only that they were bought. And the only thing more annoying than having to shell out for 35 tickets (8750 crowns) is having to be gifted them one at a time while other people spend 5 minutes in the zone and get everything for free.

Rave the Histborn

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

A good % of people this event did not get all the rewards due to RNG.

ZOS, please please please don't continue down this path with future events. I know you want more $$$ but at least put stuff we want to purchase (More mounts, hairstyles, costumes) in the crownstore instead of trying to get people to buy tickets for horrible RNG.

[Snip]

If you manage your tickets you should have 0 problems getting all the rewards, If not there is always next year. You can't have everything you want

[Edited for baiting]

PizzaCat82

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

A good % of people this event did not get all the rewards due to RNG.

ZOS, please please please don't continue down this path with future events. I know you want more $$$ but at least put stuff we want to purchase (More mounts, hairstyles, costumes) in the crownstore instead of trying to get people to buy tickets for horrible RNG.

[Snip]

If you manage your tickets you should have 0 problems getting all the rewards, If not there is always next year. You can't have everything you want
[Edited for baiting]

But you can! You just have to buy the crowns, which is only around $60 USD.

Starlock

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

A good % of people this event did not get all the rewards due to RNG.

ZOS, please please please don't continue down this path with future events. I know you want more $$$ but at least put stuff we want to purchase (More mounts, hairstyles, costumes) in the crownstore instead of trying to get people to buy tickets for horrible RNG.

[Snip]

If you manage your tickets you should have 0 problems getting all the rewards, If not there is always next year. You can't have everything you want
[Edited for baiting]

But you can! You just have to buy the crowns, which is only around $60 USD.

Needing to spend real world money is why they should have just put the "event rewards" in the cash shop instead of being duplicitous about it. They aren't event rewards of they basically require paying money for them. They're cash shop offerings and should have been treated as such. They've even done event-based limited time cash shop items in the past.

daemonios

So it's OK for ZOS to milk people for inconveniences they wrote into the game, so long as it's not YOU? Gotcha.

TheRealCherokeee3

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

A good % of people this event did not get all the rewards due to RNG.

ZOS, please please please don't continue down this path with future events. I know you want more $$$ but at least put stuff we want to purchase (More mounts, hairstyles, costumes) in the crownstore instead of trying to get people to buy tickets for horrible RNG.

Yep! Many of us would pay a premium for sweet looks! Don't even have to jump through grindy hoops to get our money!

Tigerseye

Yep, that about sums it up.

You shouldn't have to both work* and pay for the same rewards.


*By "work", I mean do things in the game you either otherwise wouldn't, or wouldn't do religiously, every day, anyway.

furiouslog

Kahnak wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I think a major part of it is this idea that you have to/should expect to "get all the rewards". (and get them now. I mean, the event will come around again next year. Heck, if you get all this years' rewards, they'll need to add more next year for you - and if they do that, new players will have an even bigger problem "getting it all".)

Why do you feel that way? And why do you feel that way strongly enough that you feel "forced" to spend money?


(seriously, it means that they can't add different rewards for people who just don't care about the current ones, because "gotta have it all" people will just yell that now they need Even More Tickets and how it's all a conspiracy to get $).

This is a point I've been making the whole time. Then those same people turn around and blame their compulsive behavior on ZOS, because neither agency nor personal responsibility exist.

An exaggerated perspective, since the issue at hand is the awarding of cosmetic items in a game whose customer-side value proposition is using various progression ladders to drive consumer enjoyment - you are assuming that they are compelled to spend money to get the thing they want absent any sense of responsibility, when the issue is that they are upset that they can't get the thing that they want without spending money having been accustomed to an entirely different business model since ESO events began. ZOS raised the effort bar on gathering desirable achievements, which is bad from a consumer perspective. If you do not agree because you don't care about the achievements, then you are not their target customer, and probably don't have the context to judge the situation.

I'm sure that if the government raised taxes on you without explaining why or telling you how it was going to make your life better, you'd complain about it. This situation is analogous from the perspective of someone who personally derives enjoyment from gathering ESO's digital assets.

daemonios

Tigerseye wrote: »

Yep, that about sums it up.

You shouldn't have to both work* and pay for the same rewards.


*By "work", I mean do things in the game you either otherwise wouldn't, or wouldn't do religiously, every day, anyway.

Once you agree with the concept of paying for convenience, how can you possibly defend that ZOS should limit their potential income by making things that can be put on the clown store easily obtainable in-game? I don't think you realize the disconnect in that position. It's obvious that ZOS are going to push you towards the clown store even if you "do the work". At that point, either pony up, or ignore the RNG item, or ditch the game.

This (and many other reasons) is why I was and am adamantly against microtransactions. If I never hear another word about "optional" or "cosmetic" or "convenience" regarding this issue, it'll still be too soon.

Tigerseye

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

[Snip]

If you manage your tickets you should have 0 problems getting all the rewards, If not there is always next year. You can't have everything you want.
[Edited for baiting]

Dutifully doing things you wouldn't otherwise do, every single day, for 12 days, is obviously not expecting "everything" to drop in "5 min"!

I mean, come on, this is ridiculous...

Tigerseye

...and yes, there may be next year (for some people), but that is not the point.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

From my point of view the game's quality has come down quite a bit since the introduction of the crown store. The effort which has gone into it's creation and maintenance could be used elsewhere and would be more appreciated and perhaps valid vis a vis The Elder Scrolls Online current state.

I wouldn't be too concerned if they removed parts of it honestly and hence going back to in game economy.
Also gambling is a bad habit and shouldn't be promoted in MMO games.

Tigerseye

daemonios wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Yep, that about sums it up.

You shouldn't have to both work* and pay for the same rewards.


*By "work", I mean do things in the game you either otherwise wouldn't, or wouldn't do religiously, every day, anyway.

Once you agree with the concept of paying for convenience, how can you possibly defend that ZOS should limit their potential income by making things that can be put on the clown store easily obtainable in-game? I don't think you realize the disconnect in that position. It's obvious that ZOS are going to push you towards the clown store even if you "do the work". At that point, either pony up, or ignore the RNG item, or ditch the game.

This (and many other reasons) is why I was and am adamantly against microtransactions. If I never hear another word about "optional" or "cosmetic" or "convenience" regarding this issue, it'll still be too soon.

I'm pro-sub, so we probably agree to an extent.

However, once we accept that this is not a compulsory sub game, anymore, it should (at least) stick to the following rule:


1. Either work in real life and then buy the item(s) you want from the Crown Store.

2. Or work in the game and get stuff in exchange for working in the game.


Whereas, it should never be:


Work in the game AND in real life, to pay ZOS for things you already worked for in the game.


It's not a "disconnect", it's a line in the sand.

mystkldrgnb14_ESO

When this event first started, there were no tickets to be bought on the store. It wasn't about the cash shop. You played the content for your tickets, to save up for indriks or the NPC outfit each event, or you didn't. If you logged in every day you could pretty much be assured you'd at least get enough tickets for the "berry of the event", as well as another 10ish tickets to either put towards another indrik or buy the outfit pieces. Whatever you couldn't get for tickets though wasn't bound (outside indrik acquisitions) - and players put everything up on the guild traders. Pretty easy for most then to fill out what they didn't get as drops, and usually, by the end of the event, pretty cheap to do so too.

Most were fine with the reward system - even if they weren't fine with the event grind to get it. Not everyone was happy, but not everyone will ever be happy with something.

And then the tickets got up on the cash store. But still, the events ran the same - the clothing/collectible items weren't BoP so there was no reason anyone had to use the cash store ticket outside of indrik acquisition - because most of the items were easily bought on guild traders at the end of events when people dumped their unwanted crap.

Then... outfit/collectible pieces started dropping less. RNG was turned up (or turned down) behind the scenes. Obviously. You don't go from multiple events in a row where the dropped-items are relatively cheap on the traders the last few days to events (in a row) where now dropped-items aren't even common on the traders at all, at any point in the event. Where clothing event items that were going for 2-500 gold because of how often they dropped for everyone, to 10-40K a piece IF you can find them on a trader at all.

Until NOW - first event where 1-rewards (including previously guaranteed ticket drops) are now RNG and 2-outfit/collectible pieces are BOP.

There is absolutely not a single reason for this slow de-evolution of 'rewards earned' OTHER than to increase cash store purchases. There's no reason to take what has been a "two year event rule" of garenteed ticket drops of XYZ task (mob, quest, whatever it was) and make them RNG, other than to try and up profit. There's no other reason to make otherwise tradeable event-drops BoP, other than to try and force people to spend at the cash store for what they want.

Don't be blind. Don't be naive. Its not a "conspiracy." Its pretty damn obvious. The trend is clear.

The only "facts" that would challenge this is where they are headed (full time) with these events - is if they "learned their lesson" on how badly this "new event way of doing things" pissed off their player base and they return back to the "guaranteed tickets, other event items are no longer BoP". Now if they do that, then no, clearly they were 'trying this new idea' and, since it didn't work out - they changed it back to the way people preferred it. (I don't mean no ticket sales, we're way past that, just not BoPing everything).

So we shall see.

But it absolutely is 100% intentionally designed (at this point with Murkmire event anyway) to drive people into the cash store. They 100% absolutely have changed the RNG drop rates on these items. They aren't targeting "collectors" or individual player's stats or anything like that. No. Much simpler to change base rates across the event for everyone. And that's what they did. And its what they will continue to do if they think it makes them more money then the way the events were last year.

Seeking the profits I have no problem with. I just want to say that. But the scummy de-valuing of the event and player effort by just changing your RNG behind the scenes and making things BoP, is where the problem is.

There's a way to increase that profit without such underhanded shenanigans. But oh well. Just don't fool yourself into thinking its anything else.

Kiralyn2000

Starlock wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

You could pay gold for tickets from other players...

... who still had to get those tickets with real world money. That's the problem.

Or, they have a pile of Crowns sitting around from their years of ESO+ sub, and nothing else to do with them right now. I'm pretty sure a good bit of the Crowns being sold come from there. (just like Lifetime Sub folks on Star Trek Online - who get 500 zen/mo for years - trade their currency in game)

Starlock wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

But you can! You just have to buy the crowns, which is only around $60 USD.

Needing to spend real world money is why they should have just put the "event rewards" in the cash shop instead of being duplicitous about it. They aren't event rewards of they basically require paying money for them. They're cash shop offerings and should have been treated as such. They've even done event-based limited time cash shop items in the past.

Has anyone explained why exactly it is that you "need" these stupid little collectables so badly that you "need" to spend $ on them? Rather than, say, getting some of them this year and waiting for the event to come back next year to get the others?

[Snip]

Edited for bashing]