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Mag warden - updated feedback

Nerouyn
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Have been playing mine again recently.

Wardens are still infinitely inferior to necromancers in the fun department, courtesy of too many gimicky / highly situation abilities and boring arse buffs, but the Arctic Blast change is an improvement. An extra damage ability is definitely nice.

I love that it follows the necromancer design style of being multi-functional and potentially useful in different ways in different roles or scenarios. Awesome. But I think it also follows the warden design style of a few super powered abilities and lots of useless ones - this being a super powered one. The stun and heal make slotting a straight heal unnecessary.

Super hating those destruction staff passives, which only magnify the lack of options available to mag players.

Making fire staff boost single target damage, shock aoe, and frost cc / taunt dictates weapons, hotbars and playstyle.
  • Aelorin
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    I love playing warden, probably because i like nature based magic in most games.

    Some skills could be better though:

    Animals:
    - The bear: Not really good for a magwarden, change it to a spriggan with a ranged magic attack.
    - The bird: Maybe this one could stun if the taget is close?
    - The others are good, although i would still prefer a 25% damage boost on the fetchers instead of one attack 100% and one 150% damage.

    Healing:
    - The only that i do not use is Nature's grasp: Really hard to get this one off in PvP.
    - I like all other healing skills

    Frost:
    - i would change the frozen device skill to something else: Deep Freeze: a targeted frost attack that gives major maim. Maybe could drain some stamina from the target?

    Destruction staff:
    - I think they need to rework Elemental Ring: Does anyone ever use this skill? I think it should do instant + DOT damage ( i know this can be achieved with a weapon, but would like it they added this feature to the base skill).
    - Let us have a passive which changes they way frost staves work, so they can be used as a DPS weapon. Maybe it could increase DOT damage?

    Anyway, these are just some suggestions from the top of my head.
    And so the Elder Scrolls foretold.You will be shy, and I will be bold.
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    We need big improvements to dive, a new dps skill and a reliable offensive stun.
    Edited by ESO_Nightingale on February 25, 2020 10:17AM
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Lughlongarm
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    Nerouyn wrote: »
    Have been playing mine again recently.

    Wardens are still infinitely inferior to necromancers in the fun department, courtesy of too many gimicky / highly situation abilities and boring arse buffs, but the Arctic Blast change is an improvement. An extra damage ability is definitely nice.

    I love that it follows the necromancer design style of being multi-functional and potentially useful in different ways in different roles or scenarios. Awesome. But I think it also follows the warden design style of a few super powered abilities and lots of useless ones - this being a super powered one. The stun and heal make slotting a straight heal unnecessary.

    Super hating those destruction staff passives, which only magnify the lack of options available to mag players.

    Making fire staff boost single target damage, shock aoe, and frost cc / taunt dictates weapons, hotbars and playstyle.

    It is false that wardens can PvP with only Arctic blast as a primary heal, especially on an offensive setup in a non CP environment. It is like 6k heal for over 4k magicka, good luck with that. Also, without a green balance skill you cannot proc major mending, so no, this is not a real option. Most if not all classes have a tempo offensive heal in addition to a core heal mechanic. mentioning few - (Swallow Soul , Flame Lash, Puncturing Sweep , Mortal Coil, Critical Surge ) .
  • thadjarvis
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    My Day 1 magden feedback:

    Tested new magden through vMA last night. Didn't get a full chance to compare log to an old one, but I definitely felt noticeably more powerful in both damage and sustain. Eliminated several bosses prior to their second mechanic, which I could not do prior patch.


    Tried one of the new HMs (Unhallowed Grave is super fun btw).

    Had no healer but there's almost no ambient damage. It's mostly near one-shots. Bring this up bc many magden's (myself included) choose Iceheart in no healer situations, but I recommend strongly against it. Grundulf for the final boss for sustain, defensive giving stamina for dodging, and permitting bi-stat food to have just enough (and I mean just enough...like dropping to 2% health) to survive would be one shots. Earlier in dungeon can go offensive monster or I guess Iceheart but it wouldn't do much.

    Noticed Fissure's intermediate range on the HM. A downside but made for some engaging risk/reward gameplay for sure.

    Do I think another of my particular subset of builds would perform stronger in there over Magden: NO.
    Stamplar bad range
    (No self-buff) Stamsorc bow build probably much weaker than magden asylum build
    MagDK not as bursty and less range than magden which comes in real handy in there
    Though some other classes might be a bit stronger, the combo of group benefits, AOE, and excellent self serving debuffs/buffs package is powerful

    Tried Prismatic weapon a few times early on assuming most things are undead in there but it never showed as doing damage, but did not test it later in dungeon. Bring it up because, Prismatic scales strongest on magdens due to our passive if it works in the content. Not sure what does and doesn't count in the dungeon yet.

    Budding seeds for Lokk allies and toughness was nice prior to HM encounter, and fetcher was quite the boon to group DPS as always.

    Actually actively used all three of our ultimates, and found each useful.


    Haven't parse tested yet. Interested to hear others' comparatives on that.
  • Iskiab
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    Warden’s good, my new main. I’ve been running around without a stun these days and it does fine with MMR being reset, because new players don’t heal themselves enough, I don’t know how it’ll hold up until MMR settles.

    I switched factions so am playing a fresh 50 warden and went Nord, so sustain feels worse than on a Breton, but that’s not the class’ fault.

    I miss vamp drain against runners, but haven’t settled on my skills yet so that might be a temporary issue.
    Edited by Iskiab on February 25, 2020 3:45PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • SidraWillowsky
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    thadjarvis wrote: »
    My Day 1 magden feedback:

    Tested new magden through vMA last night. Didn't get a full chance to compare log to an old one, but I definitely felt noticeably more powerful in both damage and sustain. Eliminated several bosses prior to their second mechanic, which I could not do prior patch.


    Tried one of the new HMs (Unhallowed Grave is super fun btw).

    Had no healer but there's almost no ambient damage. It's mostly near one-shots. Bring this up bc many magden's (myself included) choose Iceheart in no healer situations, but I recommend strongly against it. Grundulf for the final boss for sustain, defensive giving stamina for dodging, and permitting bi-stat food to have just enough (and I mean just enough...like dropping to 2% health) to survive would be one shots. Earlier in dungeon can go offensive monster or I guess Iceheart but it wouldn't do much.

    Noticed Fissure's intermediate range on the HM. A downside but made for some engaging risk/reward gameplay for sure.

    Do I think another of my particular subset of builds would perform stronger in there over Magden: NO.
    Stamplar bad range
    (No self-buff) Stamsorc bow build probably much weaker than magden asylum build
    MagDK not as bursty and less range than magden which comes in real handy in there
    Though some other classes might be a bit stronger, the combo of group benefits, AOE, and excellent self serving debuffs/buffs package is powerful

    Tried Prismatic weapon a few times early on assuming most things are undead in there but it never showed as doing damage, but did not test it later in dungeon. Bring it up because, Prismatic scales strongest on magdens due to our passive if it works in the content. Not sure what does and doesn't count in the dungeon yet.

    Budding seeds for Lokk allies and toughness was nice prior to HM encounter, and fetcher was quite the boon to group DPS as always.

    Actually actively used all three of our ultimates, and found each useful.


    Haven't parse tested yet. Interested to hear others' comparatives on that.

    On both the 6 and 21 mil I'm close to where I was in Scalebreaker, which was my highest DPS. I'm at 49k on the 6 mil (best was 51) and 81k on the 21 mil (best was 82). I'm hoping thayt a few CP tweaks will get me over the 50k threshold.

    Feels great. I was able to self-sustain on the 6 mil without using False Gods, though I'll continue to use it outside of the dummy because Siroria is too situational. Last patch, my stamplar was my strongest char and my magden has re-established her place at the top as of yesterday. Pretty thrilled with her right now.
  • Joxer61
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    any of you got any logs to post?
  • thadjarvis
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    @Joxer61

    I don't post logs here as I haven't setup an anonymous logging. But......how many magden's out there do you think posted a log on ESOlogs in the past 30 hours? (note royally messed up ice level trying something new there).


    I'll PM you dungeon run
  • SidraWillowsky
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    Joxer61 wrote: »
    any of you got any logs to post?

    I'll check when I get home from work for others, but I grabbed this last night because I've never pulled this DPS outside of the trial dummy. DPS was similar across all of the other bosses save the last one.

    LEeY3Ws.png

    I'm always kind of scared to post parses because what's fantastic for me is potato DPS for others. This is perfected False Gods, Zaan, and Mother's Sorrow with the vMA inferno staff. I personally am thrilled *\o/* (cheerleader)
    Edited by SidraWillowsky on February 25, 2020 5:27PM
  • Joxer61
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    so is this all due to the 10% crit buff or what? ;)
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Joxer61 wrote: »
    any of you got any logs to post?

    ESO logs appears to be down right now. When it comes up you can check public Sunspire logs, I ran a Magden in there last night. Overall I was pretty happy with it. I just wish Crushing Swipe would work on dragons, then it would be very close to other DPS classes.

    Edit: @Joxer61 https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/12#boss=44&metric=bossdps
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on February 25, 2020 7:46PM
  • Runefang
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    Joxer61 wrote: »
    so is this all due to the 10% crit buff or what? ;)

    Well everybody is having an easier time sustaining now, plus the crit buff which is nice. I ran MA over PFG in Unhallowed Grave last night and was able to sustain just fine.

    The new monster helm is going to end up helping Magden dps as well, at least our boss/ST dps since it’ll outperform a double crit monster helm set up.
  • Faulgor
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    I think I know the answer, but has anyone tested the new Ice Furnace set yet?
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Runefang
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    I think I know the answer, but has anyone tested the new Ice Furnace set yet?

    I haven’t but it’s on my list of things to do, I have to farm it first though.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    I think I know the answer, but has anyone tested the new Ice Furnace set yet?

    @Faulgor Yes I’ve tested it, it is bugged when used with Frost DoTs. It seems like the cooldown is a little too long, so it only procs on about 2/3 of Winter’s Revenge ticks. This brings its average DPS down to about Grothdarr level, and not worth using vs other 5pc sets. This was reported by me and several others on PTS, but I haven’t seen any dev comments acknowledging it.

    It does work fairly well when using Force Pulse, I’m guessing since my weaving is slightly slower than 1s (unlike DoTs ticks which are exactly 1s). I was getting it to proc in about 90% of Force Pulse casts. I might play around with this more as a possible NMA replacement for clearing trash fights, but using Force Pulse on a Magden isn’t really optimal, and FP hits fewer enemies than just using Elemental Ring.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on February 25, 2020 11:31PM
  • thadjarvis
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    For pure AOE master lightning is the highest if and only if the trash is stacked tight. Lightning front bar also makes fissure, orb, winters etc hit harder. I’ve been testing it on MoL and SS trash lately and it crushes relative to my old AOE setups (and has been beating stamcros in group).

    Asylum is a useful middle ground in many scenarios for cleave, bursting down adds, group benefits, and now chilled uptime.

    I’ve dropped my impulse build option with those two options available, and can’t imagine a small proc damage set will be worth much of anything. But if anyone tests something with those, please share.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    thadjarvis wrote: »
    For pure AOE master lightning is the highest if and only if the trash is stacked tight. Lightning front bar also makes fissure, orb, winters etc hit harder. I’ve been testing it on MoL and SS trash lately and it crushes relative to my old AOE setups (and has been beating stamcros in group).

    Asylum is a useful middle ground in many scenarios for cleave, bursting down adds, group benefits, and now chilled uptime.

    I’ve dropped my impulse build option with those two options available, and can’t imagine a small proc damage set will be worth much of anything. But if anyone tests something with those, please share.

    If it functioned properly it could be good on trash. 1644 tooltip DPS that doesn’t require melee range. However the current bugged state means that with Winters Revenge it only gets about 1.1k tooltip DPS.

    Compare that to the new stam AoE DPS set, Aegis Caller, which has a tooltip DPS of 2.8k, and can be used by all classes, in medium armor, without requiring a damage type tied to a tanking weapon. Not exactly balanced.
  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    I think I know the answer, but has anyone tested the new Ice Furnace set yet?

    @Faulgor Yes I’ve tested it, it is bugged when used with Frost DoTs. It seems like the cooldown is a little too long, so it only procs on about 2/3 of Winter’s Revenge ticks. This brings its average DPS down to about Grothdarr level, and not worth using vs other 5pc sets. This was reported by me and several others on PTS, but I haven’t seen any dev comments acknowledging it.

    It does work fairly well when using Force Pulse, I’m guessing since my weaving is slightly slower than 1s (unlike DoTs ticks which are exactly 1s). I was getting it to proc in about 90% of Force Pulse casts. I might play around with this more as a possible NMA replacement for clearing trash fights, but using Force Pulse on a Magden isn’t really optimal, and FP hits fewer enemies than just using Elemental Ring.

    I was thinking of running frost blockade to go with it, terrible idea? That way there are two frost dots that should proc it much more consistently. Then running master lightning or BRP lightning front bar.
  • Joxer61
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    coming at this from a Stamden pov, curious as to if WR on the backbar would be ok to run? I mean NB's run the shades and stamplar run ritual so meh, why not...if it means a increase?
    Or Gripping shards since it at least scales off health and is melee range? I dunno, hopefully someone with better smarts will test. ;)
    Edited by Joxer61 on February 26, 2020 11:10AM
  • SidraWillowsky
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    Joxer61 wrote: »
    coming at this from a Stamden pov, curious as to if WR on the backbar would be ok to run? I mean NB's run the shades and stamplar run ritual so meh, why not...if it means a increase?
    Or Gripping shards since it at least scales off health and is melee range? I dunno, hopefully someone with better smarts will test. ;)

    The thing about Shade and Ritual is that they scale off of your highest stat- so in the case of stamblades and stamplars, it scales off of stamina vs. magicka. I don't think this is the case for Wardens, so I don't think it's worth it. I have considered it before too but the tooltip is just too low to make it worth it.
  • thadjarvis
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    If it functioned properly it could be good on trash. 1644 tooltip DPS that doesn’t require melee range. However the current bugged state means that with Winters Revenge it only gets about 1.1k tooltip DPS.

    Compare that to the new stam AoE DPS set, Aegis Caller, which has a tooltip DPS of 2.8k, and can be used by all classes, in medium armor, without requiring a damage type tied to a tanking weapon. Not exactly balanced.


    Master Lightning? I am going off of content logs switching between setups on similar trash pulls. Tool-tips don't really matter.

    Winter's Revenge bug: what's the current bug?

    Aegis: yes it's annoying that stams will likely be stronger for both ST and AOE. Odd that there is not an Aegis/Asuzreblight type set for mag; eg why does Vicious Death only proc on players in the first place. However, for magden players maximizing an AOE setup has nothing to do with what another build can do.
  • thadjarvis
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    @Runefang
    Not running a fire staff means lossing the skill's bonus to burning targets and bonus from engulfing flames. Combined that is huge. Also the status effect proc rate of a ground AOE DoT is extremely low. Instead I suggest using a Frost Glyph if you want to change something with weapons to proc chilled.

    Asiangod's very recent video on using any Maelstrom staff type as well an analysis of using a frost glyph within his video on the new passive


    @Joxer61 do a quick parse with and without. can see above that someone seems to benefit.
  • Runefang
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    thadjarvis wrote: »
    @Runefang
    Not running a fire staff means lossing the skill's bonus to burning targets and bonus from engulfing flames. Combined that is huge. Also the status effect proc rate of a ground AOE DoT is extremely low. Instead I suggest using a Frost Glyph if you want to change something with weapons to proc chilled.

    Asiangod's very recent video on using any Maelstrom staff type as well an analysis of using a frost glyph within his video on the new passive


    @Joxer61 do a quick parse with and without. can see above that someone seems to benefit.

    Frost staff back bar reference was specifically for using it with ice furnace not to proc chilled. Once I farm up a set of ice furnace I’ll try it out.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    thadjarvis wrote: »
    Aegis: yes it's annoying that stams will likely be stronger for both ST and AOE. Odd that there is not an Aegis/Asuzreblight type set for mag; eg why does Vicious Death only proc on players in the first place. However, for magden players maximizing an AOE setup has nothing to do with what another build can do.

    @thadjarvis Yeah, I like the Master Lightning. I’ve been trying to bring it back in to use on Sorc, since they have a lot of GCD’s to fill on trash and get the bonus 5% Shock Damage. It would help if a Perfected Master Lightning Staff existed, with maybe one line of Spell Crit or Spell Damage.

    On Warden I haven’t been impressed with the Master Lightning because I use fewer spammables with Deep Fissure every 3rd skill. Not really sure what to use in addition to my 2 5-piece sets since there’s not really a good ranged monster set or arena weapon for Magden. I might try an Asylum Staff tonight.

    The bug I was referring to is specifically that Winters Revenge ticks often fail to proc Ice Furnace, the skill itself works fine, just the interaction with the set has problems. I think Ice Furnace was intended to be the new AoE proc set for mag (that’s why I brought up Aegis Caller as a comparison), but it’s relatively weak tooltip (compared to Aegis), combined with the procs failing makes it a buggy disappointment.

    You could get more Ice Furnace procs with WR and Frost Wall, but it still would not proc on cooldown. I believe the issue is caused by inconsistent damage tick timing. In this case WR alone procs an Ice Furnace tick 67% of the time, or average 20 ticks in 30s. Adding wall to this would increase this to 24 ticks in 30s. It’s a little better, but still not close to the intended 100% or 30 ticks in 30s, and you’re giving up a lot of damage on your Wall not using Flame, about 20% if the enemy is burning (the 10% Frost Damage passive approximately covers the 10% lost from Engulfing Flames).
  • Nerouyn
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    Aelorin wrote: »
    I love playing warden, probably because i like nature based magic in most games.

    I love their theme and visuals. But hate them mechanically.
    Aelorin wrote: »
    - The bear: Not really good for a magwarden, change it to a spriggan with a ranged magic attack.

    The bear is one of the few abilities I am presently mostly happy with.

    My only criticism in relation to the bear is the Eternal Guardian morph. It never dies anyway, so the free cast once a minute is pointless. Since the other morph does physical damage and Deep Fissure doesn't debuff physical resistance, that's not really an option.
    Aelorin wrote: »
    - The only that i do not use is Nature's grasp: Really hard to get this one off in PvP.
    - I like all other healing skills

    Prior to Arctic Blast becoming our one stop shop for damage, cc and healing, Budding Seeds was the only heal I bothered using.

    The others are all useless. Well not literally useless but useful only in such very specific circumstances which almost never arise as to be nearly totally useless.

    This is incredibly boring especially if you want to play a healer.
    It is false that wardens can PvP with only Arctic blast as a primary heal

    What's false is your claim that I said anything about pvp. I didn't. Like many players I totally ignore that part of the game.

    I'm breezing through all PvE content - including solo'ing "group" events in "public" dungeons using only this for healing and that definitely feels broken.

    The biggest problem with mag warden is that so many of their abilities are useless / gimicky so in effect you only have a tiny pool of abilities and this means you have no options.

    Making it the polar opposite of the single player TES games where you're drowning in options.

    This ability rendering other heals superfluous magnifies that effect.
  • thadjarvis
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    @WrathOfInnos o Ive furnace? That’s still an RP or potential no CP PvP set until proven otherwise. I mean on paper it doesn’t seem to do a fraction of asurzeblight or Aegis. In practice mother sorrow or NMA would probably crush it into uselessness.

    With master lightning I believe two 5 pieces or willpower + 2pc crit works best assuming you output high damage unless maybe maybe you want to run into the middle of the pack with grothdaar.

    I tested master on magden both in trials and on a group of dummies. It beats asylum or 5/5/2. Yes not as many spams as Sorc but the AOE passive is big for winters, fissure, orbs. I think I tested against a MS or NMA lightning impulse but probably will double check to see how much dps is coming from Master and how much comes from lightning staff AOE passive.
    Edited by thadjarvis on February 26, 2020 9:01PM
  • WrathOfInnos
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    thadjarvis wrote: »
    @WrathOfInnos o Ive furnace? That’s still an RP or potential no CP PvP set until proven otherwise. I mean on paper it doesn’t seem to do a fraction of asurzeblight or Aegis. In practice mother sorrow or NMA would probably crush it into uselessness.

    With master lightning I believe two 5 pieces or willpower + 2pc crit works best assuming you output high damage unless maybe maybe you want to run into the middle of the pack with grothdaar.

    I tested master on magden both in trials and on a group of dummies. It beats asylum or 5/5/2. Yes not as many spams as Sorc but the AOE passive is big for winters, fissure, orbs. I think I tested against a MS or NMA lightning impulse but probably will double check to see how much dps is coming from Master and how much comes from lightning staff AOE passive.

    Yeah, I like to go 5-5-1 with the Master Lightning for trash. You should never use 2X mixed crit helm/shoulders with 3X Willpower. That combination results in lower stats than just using 5 Julianos (which is also not a great set option).
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on February 26, 2020 9:10PM
  • thadjarvis
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    True I do 5-5-Master but the loss of undaunted can be rough for survival a bit. I haven't gotten around to it but that's what I was thinking: maybe Juli or NMA with heavy/medium chest/leg with False god would work nicely.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    thadjarvis wrote: »
    True I do 5-5-Master but the loss of undaunted can be rough for survival a bit. I haven't gotten around to it but that's what I was thinking: maybe Juli or NMA with heavy/medium chest/leg with False god would work nicely.

    Yep, NMA + FGD is my current trial trash build. The line of Spell Pen on NMA is nice vs enemies that won’t have full debuffs (no AoE crusher enchant), and the resource cost increase isn’t terrible when FGD gives a burst of Magicka every time something dies. The only real downside is that NMA makes ultimates more expensive.
  • Cerotonin
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    Imagine if we could use Frozen Gates to teleport ourselves.
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