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Nightblades - Would You Make This Trade?

Solariken
Solariken
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PvP as a nightblade (with Shadowy Disguise) is feast or famine. The mechanics surrounding Cloak make it either incredibly powerful or completely useless depending on your opponent. There have been MANY nightblade buff requests lately, and rightfully so. I thought I'd discuss something a little different that would go a long way toward making the class more viable for battlegrounds in particular.

So to experienced nightbladers, I offer this question - would you make this trade?

Invisibility can no longer be broken by any damage, including area-of-effect damage. Detect potions now allow the user to SEE the nightblade, but the nightblade remains untargetable (like Shade). Invisibility can only be broken by opponents using "reveal" mechanics such as Expert Hunter, Magelight, Piercing Mark, and Flare.

However, Cloak no longer suppresses any damage, which means you take full damage from all DOTs on you and any AOEs that hit you. Detect pots now also last the full cooldown duration (~47 seconds, up from ~15 seconds). Piercing Mark is buffed to 6 second duration and also applies a unique +10% damage bonus versus invisible/crouching targets.


Hit me up with some votes, I'd love to know what you think.
Edited by Solariken on January 31, 2020 6:10PM

Nightblades - Would You Make This Trade? 80 votes

YES, I'd love a more skillful and consistent Cloaking experience
27%
SolarikenkadarAztlanXvorgkaluntecode65536NyladreassusmitdsSshadowSscaleMicah_BayerJobooAGSDosuulMartiniDanielsGreek_HellspawnnsmurferChubarov_SAraneae6537Eldemar_KronthadjarvisSnaggel 22 votes
NO, because reasons
66%
GilvothkaithuzarIruil_ESOixieRikumaruMuizeridkiamnotweakrwb17_ESOAektannRavenSwornactoshDjennkuJoosef_KivikilpiRagnaroek93kollege14a5KelcesSosRuvaakKatahdinku5hSnowZenia 53 votes
I don't play nightblade, I just slay them mercilessly and harvest their tears
6%
kojouShaloknirValykcWyrd88MerguezMan 5 votes
  • idk
    idk
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    NO, because reasons
    Solariken wrote: »
    PvP as a nightblade (with Shadowy Disguise) is feast or famine. The mechanics surrounding Cloak make it either incredibly powerful or completely useless depending on your opponent.

    If you are only using cloak then this would be correct. Being that a skilled player is not a one trick pony the quoted comment loses accuracy. Since the question is being posed to experienced NBs then the entire premise is false.

    So this is not an issue concerning cloak but the overall players skill level and how they build out their character.
  • Solariken
    Solariken
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    YES, I'd love a more skillful and consistent Cloaking experience
    idk wrote: »
    Solariken wrote: »
    PvP as a nightblade (with Shadowy Disguise) is feast or famine. The mechanics surrounding Cloak make it either incredibly powerful or completely useless depending on your opponent.

    If you are only using cloak then this would be correct. Being that a skilled player is not a one trick pony the quoted comment loses accuracy. Since the question is being posed to experienced NBs then the entire premise is false.

    So this is not an issue concerning cloak but the overall players skill level and how they build out their character.

    The premise is not false, do you even battleground? You can get away with some Shade acrobatics in open world, sometimes, but sure as hell not in battlegrounds with 5 Sorcs Streaking you down and 3 Dks dunking you into Oblivion. On PC/NA you can count the number of regular nightblades in high MMR on one hand. But sure, it's a L2P issue :/
    Edited by Solariken on January 31, 2020 6:45PM
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    NO, because reasons
    No, because the class toolkit and self healing suck. You can mist aoes, and I’d rather suppress dots with cloak.
    Edited by Iskiab on January 31, 2020 6:50PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • Kelces
    Kelces
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    NO, because reasons
    I like to tempt fate. :grin:
    You reveal yourself best in how you play.

    Kelces - Argonian Templar
    Farel Donvu - Dark Elf Sorcerer
    Navam Llervu - Dark Elf Dragonknight
    Aniseth - Wood Elf Warden
    Therediel - Wood Elf Templar
    Nilonwy - Wood Elf Nightblade
    Jurupari - Argonian Warden
    Kú-Chulainn - Argonian Sorcerer
    PC - EU
    For the Pact!
  • Solariken
    Solariken
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    YES, I'd love a more skillful and consistent Cloaking experience
    Iskiab wrote: »
    No, because the class toolkit and self healing suck. You can mist aoes, and I’d rather suppress dots with cloak.

    But let me ask you this @Iskiab, what good is DOT suppression in situations where Cloak doesn't last even 1 second?
  • Vietfox
    Vietfox
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    NO, because reasons
    It's fine as it is, although i think detect pots should last for bit longer and/or have a wider range.
  • Iskiab
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    NO, because reasons
    Solariken wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    No, because the class toolkit and self healing suck. You can mist aoes, and I’d rather suppress dots with cloak.

    But let me ask you this @Iskiab, what good is DOT suppression in situations where Cloak doesn't last even 1 second?

    It’s not, that’s why I use mist form and cloak. Cloak is terrible for defense unless you get separation from your opponent.
    Edited by Iskiab on January 31, 2020 8:15PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • Royaji
    Royaji
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    NO, because reasons
    No because ZOS is not capable of preventing damage from pulling you out of cloak.
  • Vietfox
    Vietfox
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    NO, because reasons
    Iskiab wrote: »
    Solariken wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    No, because the class toolkit and self healing suck. You can mist aoes, and I’d rather suppress dots with cloak.

    But let me ask you this @Iskiab, what good is DOT suppression in situations where Cloak doesn't last even 1 second?

    It’s not, that’s why I use mist form and cloak. Cloak is terrible for defense unless you get separation from your opponent.

    Don't you rather combine cloak and shadow image for defense?
    I never liked the idea of running mist on a nightblade.
  • Iskiab
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    NO, because reasons
    Vietfox wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    Solariken wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    No, because the class toolkit and self healing suck. You can mist aoes, and I’d rather suppress dots with cloak.

    But let me ask you this @Iskiab, what good is DOT suppression in situations where Cloak doesn't last even 1 second?

    It’s not, that’s why I use mist form and cloak. Cloak is terrible for defense unless you get separation from your opponent.

    Don't you rather combine cloak and shadow image for defense?
    I never liked the idea of running mist on a nightblade.

    I’m still playing around with how I want to set it up, but maybe all 3 but I’m not sure. I like mist better than RAT because you’re tanky while getting expedition. Combination of temporal guard, mist and the shade on your back bar with cloak on your front bar makes you really trolly evasive, the issue is moreso sustain and enough damage to kill people plus how best to cancel mist.

    Bar swopping will cancel mist but on a magplar I usually cancel it with a roll. Shade is good but overrated, it’s expensive and only lasts 20 seconds or so. There’s always a 5 second window or so where it’s to close to the end of the duration so you have to hit it early, or you just used it so you’re too close to it. Mist is good with shade - dodge cast shade - dodge mist for separation from the shade but it takes a ton of resources. It’s not like a magblade can survive more then a couple hits if you’re being chased by 3 people.

    That’s why I’m trying to make darloc work so I can have enough stam for all this stuff.
    Edited by Iskiab on January 31, 2020 8:43PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • Vietfox
    Vietfox
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    NO, because reasons
    Iskiab wrote: »
    Vietfox wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    Solariken wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    No, because the class toolkit and self healing suck. You can mist aoes, and I’d rather suppress dots with cloak.

    But let me ask you this @Iskiab, what good is DOT suppression in situations where Cloak doesn't last even 1 second?

    It’s not, that’s why I use mist form and cloak. Cloak is terrible for defense unless you get separation from your opponent.

    Don't you rather combine cloak and shadow image for defense?
    I never liked the idea of running mist on a nightblade.

    That’s why I’m trying to make darloc work so I can have enough stam for all this stuff.

    With my last magblade build (high elf stam passive + amber plasm + DW heavy attacks) i had "infinite" stamina sustain. Got a few whispers asking if i was cheating xD
    Edited by Vietfox on January 31, 2020 8:54PM
  • Joinovikova
    Joinovikova
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    NO, because reasons
    NB only need remove or reduce cast time on ulti..I also can image increase debuff on suprise attack. This is crazy idea...near to have "make me unkillable button"
  • ku5h
    ku5h
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    NO, because reasons
    I think this would be way to strong defensively.
    I can see it working if you add some kind of fatigue debuff to it, like streak.
    It must be costly if you want to chain them. Otherwise detect pots would be useless, unless your zerged by entire raid.
    I don't know, to me it seem to strong.

  • OWLTHEMAD
    OWLTHEMAD
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    NO, because reasons
    This change wouldnt create skillful play. This would just effectively turn cloak into mistform with sneak. It would kill the class. Cloak at its core function is honestly the only tool in the nightblade toolkit that doesnt need to change at all. Its perfectly balanced with limitations baked into the class and fair counter measures massively available to literally everyone.

    What needs to change is the other tools in our arsenal. We lack killing power even when stacking damage. Our skills range from underpowered to nonsensical or overly niche design (im looking at you major expedition on path) Changing the one skill in our toolkit that works as well and the way that it should when you chose the night blade class cannot happen and should not happen.

    I wouldnt be opposed to changing its morph effect though. The guaranteed crit from stealth should be guaranteed to everyone. Not just nightblades. Its not like we can alternate between cloak and spammable and be viable. If we could that would be the meta for dps. Changing that auxiliary effect in my opinion is the only thing that can or should be changed without chasing off every nightblade main from this game for good. You can buff it, but then you'd *** off the remaining player base. Just leave cloak alone.

    As it is im just relieved we didnt recieve even more nerfs/disfunctional reworks this patch (so far). There are still a few competent nightblades out there and it seems like the dev team and low skill players find that unacceptable.

  • OWLTHEMAD
    OWLTHEMAD
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    NO, because reasons
    People should also note that you cant do continuous damage while supressing dots with cloak. Its an escape and positioning tool. Dot suppression (while it is an added bonus) comes from a technical limitation, they cant let people stay in cloak AND recieve dot damage. as far as i understand, they tried and just couldnt get it to work so we got to keep it. Its hardly overpowered. Especially compared to what other classes have available in their defensive tool kits.
  • Ragnaroek93
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    NO, because reasons
    No because it's a bad change. What about builds without dots? Dot builds are the builds which do more than fine against Nbs, it's projectile builds who get crushed by Cloak mostly.
    I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
  • MusCanus
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    I've written this many times already, start with adding some sort of indicator to detect pots, so you can tell if someone is using it, that will solve half the problems.There is nothing more frustrating than being pulled out of cloak with no means to guess if it was because of some random aoe or a detect pot. Or make it impossible to cast cloak at all while in a detect pot radius, so you wouldn't pointlessly lose magicka and a GCD.
  • Qbiken
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    I don't mind the current mechanics of cloak, just get rid of the cast time on soul harvest and incap and I'm gucci
  • fred4
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    NO, because reasons
    Easy answer: Detect potions that last the full duration would be a complete no no! I - magblade main btw - would be permanently on that potion myself and just nuke other nightblades with Magelight or AOE. Completely unacceptable and, dare I say it, kind of dumb. Sorry.

    Do you play nightblade, by the way? Juggling heals and cloak is already a problem. Troll King is valuable, because other heals (Regen, Healing Ward) uncloak you. If you just barely managed to escape a zerg and there is no LoS, casting a Healing Ward puts you right back into their clutches. The DOT suppression is valuable, but is already not perfect. I've been killed by Curse and Backlash, because I didn't dare cast a heal in some situations.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • fred4
    fred4
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    NO, because reasons
    Vietfox wrote: »
    It's fine as it is, although i think detect pots should last for bit longer and/or have a wider range.
    As a magblade who is both the victim of these and who uses them to hunt other nightblades - my default and only potion is Immov / Detect / Magicka - it's an emphatic NO to extending the duration or the range! Those potions are crazy efficient as they are.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • fred4
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    NO, because reasons
    Iskiab wrote: »
    Solariken wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    No, because the class toolkit and self healing suck. You can mist aoes, and I’d rather suppress dots with cloak.

    But let me ask you this @Iskiab, what good is DOT suppression in situations where Cloak doesn't last even 1 second?

    It’s not, that’s why I use mist form and cloak. Cloak is terrible for defense unless you get separation from your opponent.
    Alternatives include the shade or what I do: Fully building into speed (Steed, 3x gold Swift, Concealed Weapon, RAT). I also have 1.3K stam regen for some dodge rolls. I feel this is how you can make Cloak work quite well as your only defensive measure. However I play CP open world, not BGs.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • Solariken
    Solariken
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    YES, I'd love a more skillful and consistent Cloaking experience
    fred4 wrote: »
    Vietfox wrote: »
    It's fine as it is, although i think detect pots should last for bit longer and/or have a wider range.
    As a magblade who is both the victim of these and who uses them to hunt other nightblades - my default and only potion is Immov / Detect / Magicka - it's an emphatic NO to extending the duration or the range! Those potions are crazy efficient as they are.

    But @fred4 my man, you didn't read the OP. Of course I wouldn't advocate for extending the duration of the current detect pot iteration... read again.
  • fred4
    fred4
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    NO, because reasons
    Also "no" simply because: Please no more drastic changes to anything. You think you're better than ZOS at combat design? I wouldn't trust you nor ZOS nor myself at this stage. There's no way a big change like that won't come out lopsided in some way and then it will forever be broken (again) because ZOS are incapable of subtly adjusting anything.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • Iskiab
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    NO, because reasons
    This is going to sound like bragging but this morning I took my MagWarden out for a spin.

    7-1-0 so far in BGs, guess which class I had two of on my team when we got 2nd place.

    I think it’s safe to just buff NB without giving up anything in exchange.
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • fred4
    fred4
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    NO, because reasons
    Solariken wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    Vietfox wrote: »
    It's fine as it is, although i think detect pots should last for bit longer and/or have a wider range.
    As a magblade who is both the victim of these and who uses them to hunt other nightblades - my default and only potion is Immov / Detect / Magicka - it's an emphatic NO to extending the duration or the range! Those potions are crazy efficient as they are.

    But @fred4 my man, you didn't read the OP. Of course I wouldn't advocate for extending the duration of the current detect pot iteration... read again.
    I did read your OP. Did you read my other post? I'd slot Radiant Magelight. The problem with those detection skills is that you currently have to be really disciplined to keep them in your rotation and most people don't use them properly. With your potion you could stay on the attack and reactively use Magelight / Expert Hunter as needed. That will make a hell of a difference. Then there's AOE. Subterranean and spin to win. Nightblade will be helpless against that.

    Templars? So what is Jabs exactly, huh? Would it be ... AOE? I know we're getting into the nitty gritty here. Would you say a cloaking nightblade should be hit for full damage from Jabs or only for the AOE component of Jabs when they are the cloaking single target? Would you trust ZOS to get subtleties like that right? Also: If you use cloak, fine, the templar can't gap close, but other than that the nightblade is a sitting duck. It's cloak - then what? You haven't healed. You cast Healing Ward, you take full damage the next GCD. You go on the counter attack, you still haven't healed. Nope. I really don't see this working against templars. It will be a nightmare. Currently, at least, I do have a chance to get away, even if it's difficult.

    Today's magden: Northern Storm, Deep Fissure, Shock Master Staff, maybe Arctic Blast. All AOE all the time and they can see you 100% of the time? No, thank you. Now I know the Master Staff needs a target, so it's not as bad as I make it out. I don't know, man. Take magplar again. Solar Barrage. Crescent Sweep. Puncturing Sweep. All AOE and they can see you 100% of the time. Mjeh. You're trading the devil for the beelzebub.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    NO, because reasons
    The reason being that: it is a nerf... and a big one tbh. No one likes nerfs.

    Oh and possibly it would be game breaking as it would encourage tanky builds. Imagine 50+ health "bricks" going through AOE invisible lol.

    Mind you: In the past cloak used to have negative effects removal build in, but it was apparently misused (I don't remember but it was something like 10 negative effects or something). ZOS removed that and to make up for it (back then they used to change stuff instead of sledge hammer nerfing it lol) - they added DOT suppression.

    It is clear that devs want NB to relay on stealthiness in order to survive.
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on February 1, 2020 4:42PM
  • Solariken
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    YES, I'd love a more skillful and consistent Cloaking experience
    fred4 wrote: »
    Solariken wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    Vietfox wrote: »
    It's fine as it is, although i think detect pots should last for bit longer and/or have a wider range.
    As a magblade who is both the victim of these and who uses them to hunt other nightblades - my default and only potion is Immov / Detect / Magicka - it's an emphatic NO to extending the duration or the range! Those potions are crazy efficient as they are.

    But @fred4 my man, you didn't read the OP. Of course I wouldn't advocate for extending the duration of the current detect pot iteration... read again.
    I did read your OP. Did you read my other post? I'd slot Radiant Magelight. The problem with those detection skills is that you currently have to be really disciplined to keep them in your rotation and most people don't use them properly. With your potion you could stay on the attack and reactively use Magelight / Expert Hunter as needed. That will make a hell of a difference. Then there's AOE. Subterranean and spin to win. Nightblade will be helpless against that.

    Templars? So what is Jabs exactly, huh? Would it be ... AOE? I know we're getting into the nitty gritty here. Would you say a cloaking nightblade should be hit for full damage from Jabs or only for the AOE component of Jabs when they are the cloaking single target? Would you trust ZOS to get subtleties like that right? Also: If you use cloak, fine, the templar can't gap close, but other than that the nightblade is a sitting duck. It's cloak - then what? You haven't healed. You cast Healing Ward, you take full damage the next GCD. You go on the counter attack, you still haven't healed. Nope. I really don't see this working against templars. It will be a nightmare. Currently, at least, I do have a chance to get away, even if it's difficult.

    Today's magden: Northern Storm, Deep Fissure, Shock Master Staff, maybe Arctic Blast. All AOE all the time and they can see you 100% of the time? No, thank you. Now I know the Master Staff needs a target, so it's not as bad as I make it out. I don't know, man. Take magplar again. Solar Barrage. Crescent Sweep. Puncturing Sweep. All AOE and they can see you 100% of the time. Mjeh. You're trading the devil for the beelzebub.

    Then it's the gameplay implications you aren't grasping mate - let's say someone pops this new detect pot on you and starts rolling AoEs...

    You just Shuffle/PE+Sprint then Cloak.

    Now you're outside of the melee hot zone and while they can see you, they can't target you to gap close or stun, which means they have to physically close the gap or pepper you with things like Bombard or Fissure. And even if they hit you it just deals damage and doesn't break/waste your Cloak.

    Doesn't that sound like a more fair and consistent detect mechanic? The way it is now they just shut you down and laugh.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    YES, I'd love a more skillful and consistent Cloaking experience
    Solariken wrote: »
    PvP as a nightblade (with Shadowy Disguise) is feast or famine. The mechanics surrounding Cloak make it either incredibly powerful or completely useless depending on your opponent. There have been MANY nightblade buff requests lately, and rightfully so. I thought I'd discuss something a little different that would go a long way toward making the class more viable for battlegrounds in particular.

    So to experienced nightbladers, I offer this question - would you make this trade?

    Invisibility can no longer be broken by any damage, including area-of-effect damage. Detect potions now allow the user to SEE the nightblade, but the nightblade remains untargetable (like Shade). Invisibility can only be broken by opponents using "reveal" mechanics such as Expert Hunter, Magelight, Piercing Mark, and Flare.

    However, Cloak no longer suppresses any damage, which means you take full damage from all DOTs on you and any AOEs that hit you. Detect pots now also last the full cooldown duration (~47 seconds, up from ~15 seconds). Piercing Mark is buffed to 6 second duration and also applies a unique +10% damage bonus versus invisible/crouching targets.


    Hit me up with some votes, I'd love to know what you think.

    Ok, but add a self burst heal on veiled
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • Solariken
    Solariken
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    YES, I'd love a more skillful and consistent Cloaking experience
    The reason being that: it is a nerf... and a big one tbh. No one likes nerfs.

    Oh and possibly it would be game breaking as it would encourage tanky builds. Imagine 50+ health "bricks" going through AOE invisible lol.

    Mind you: In the past cloak used to have negative effects removal build in, but it was apparently misused (I don't remember but it was something like 10 negative effects or something). ZOS removed that and to make up for it (back then they used to change stuff instead of sledge hammer nerfing it lol) - they added DOT suppression.

    It is clear that devs want NB to relay on stealthiness in order to survive.

    I'm not seeing how tanks would be a problem with Shadowy... The only good/trollworthy skill nightblades have to use for tanking is Dark Cloak, which is obviously not what is being discussed here.
  • Spartabunny08
    Spartabunny08
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    NO, because reasons
    Roll dodge then cloak. Repeat as necessary till you get away. In combat bug is the only thing that exposes myself and is a huge issue. May be why they gave us darloc brae. 99% of the time in combat bug still isn't enough for my enemy to get me. I have many nightblades. Some are for damage and some are for laughing while being damn near unkillable. Shade range too short to be real effective. RAT is a must while mist form is a great option and is on my bar as well mist form costs more. You want to live you need swift on jewelry.
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