Liberated from the burden of having a trader

Alhatariel · January 12

After fixing a trader for my guild in several years I released myself from having a trader last week. I have a social guild but also had the opinion that I should also provide a trader for my guildmembers. After a few years with bidding, having auctions frequently and using much of my own money I quit participating in this tradersystem where I had problems with from the day 1 in the game. I felt from the first bid for a trader with my guild that I was forced to join a tradersystem which I experienced as unfair, unneeded and tiresome. From my opinion should every guild with more than 400 members have a free trader, on a rotating base, so all guilds should experience of having a trader on the populair and quiet traderplaces. But.... we have no choice and I surrendered and fixed a trader in many years, providing the gold in my guild with what we did sell plus using my own money. This obligation made that I hardly was present in the guild or for guildactivities because I had a busy job getting in the money needed for the bidding. Doing daily writs with 10 chars, doing auctions regularly and farming mats to sell stuff. Many new guilds did appear the last year and the competition became bigger.

Ofcourse could I have had the possibility to demand from guildmembers a weekly donation of 50K or 100K, as many other guilds do.
But.....I dont want to be such a Guild. I want my guildmembers friendship, their commitment and support: and not their money. I made the best facilities in the game with all craftingsets, Mundus Stones, Dummies etc etc. I want them to feel appreciated and valued without demanding money of them.
Its certainly possible also to find other, less civilised ways to get in gold as we could read here last week in our forum. All of this caused of a tradersystem that puts pressure on us and multi bidding did not make it easier eighter.

So now I stopped bidding and I feel free at last from an unjust system! I got much support from my team and guildmembers: we are a social guild and sell stuff can be done in other trading guilds.
Now I suddenly have time for the things that got me started a guild a few years ago: having quality time with my guildmembers, doing runs, doing trials, planning guildactivities from fishing to housing and outfit contests. But most important of all: getting to know our guildmembers, meet them, feeling buddies and raid collegues.
In stead of being some vague guildleader who is always busy.....

So I finally start a new episode of enjoying my beloved game again with the freedom of not being forced into an unacceptable bidding and trading system that almost took my fun in the game away..........

Ala
Meridias Light

Neoealth · January 12

Good for you

Play the game for fun, there should be no place for stress.

Danikat · January 12

It sounds like you made the right choice, especially as your guild members supported your decision.

I'm not a guild leader myself, but I've been a member and/or officer of many different guilds across several games and IMO the best approach for anything which is going to require a big commitment is to be honest with guild members about what's required and only go for it if enough people are actually prepared to contribute to make it worthwhile. A guild is supposed to be a group effort, not one person putting in all the work for everyone else's benefit, especially when it's something you're not even sure they want.

blacksghost · January 12

Yeah traders are nice but this is a game played for fun. When the game becomes work it’s not fun or not restful. As for guild demands I happily donate 500k to my guilds that ask nothing and balk at the ones demanding fees.

Nestor · January 12

I am in two social guilds that get traders on a regular basis. We don't go for Tier 1 traders, we get the out of the way Tier 2 and 3 Traders. We never spend more than the donations we get, and we never ask for donations, just use what some of the guildies deposit.

Even getting Tier 2 and 3 Traders, we still move the merchandise we list. It just takes a few extra days. However for the purposes of shedding excess inventory, that is just fine.

VaranisArano · January 12

While I'm sure your guildmates appreciate the service you did them, having been an officer in a trading guild that shared the burden between a team of players, I can't say I'm surprised you seem to have burnt out trying to do it all on your own.

My guilds on PC/NA funded our bids with the help of our members and our officers through sales, raffles, and auctions. The one social guild I was in had no requirements, but thr GM and Officers ran a spectacular auction with donations that kept me logging in every week to participate.

In all the guilds I've been in, it was never a matter where the Guildmaster or officers had to fund the bid with their own money, though many of us donated gold and prize items from the stuff we were already doing in game. I donated crafting mats or fish, usually, because that's what I did a lot of at the time. The Guild Houses were often a collaborative effort - one of my guilds did a big Writ Raffle to collect enough writs to by all the attuned crafting stations when those came out, and the guild house became an amazing resource for me as a crafter.

I hate to say this when you clearly sunk a ton of time and effort into providing for your guildmates all by yourself, which is admirable...but the most successful guilds I've been in made trading a group effort.

Dusk_Coven · January 12

Part of the problem with Guild Kiosks is guilds can't seem to sell enough to their own members.
EVERY guild has a trader. The only difference is without winning a kiosk, you can't sell to the wider public.

So one of the questions ZOS and players have to examine is why that trader isn't good enough for it's own members, especially in a busy guild. Once we answer that, I think better decisions can be made in regards to the trading system as a whole.

Czinczar · January 12

Personally, I think there is a problem with donations when the donator is not supposed to know anything. So when the supposed donator asks "what guild trader are we targeting this week?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, it's a secret". When the supposed donator asks "how much is needed?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, there may be spies". That's a problem in itself. Personally, I can't make donations when I know nothing about the goals. It's not building trust when the guild leader who asks you for donations, suspects you of being a spy at the same time.

Araneae6537 · January 12

OP, much admiration for all you did for your guild and very glad you have their support in taking this step and that you’ll be able to enjoy the game and your guild now!

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Part of the problem with Guild Kiosks is guilds can't seem to sell enough to their own members.
EVERY guild has a trader. The only difference is without winning a kiosk, you can't sell to the wider public.

So one of the questions ZOS and players have to examine is why that trader isn't good enough for it's own members, especially in a busy guild. Once we answer that, I think better decisions can be made in regards to the trading system as a whole.

That may work fine for stuff that lots of people want (like chromium platings, for instance), but for specific motifs and furnishings, there may not be anyone in the guild who wants it, but there are enough people in the game who would.

VaranisArano · January 12

Czinczar wrote: »

Personally, I think there is a problem with donations when the donator is not supposed to know anything. So when the supposed donator asks "what guild trader are we targeting this week?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, it's a secret". When the supposed donator asks "how much is needed?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, there may be spies". That's a problem in itself. Personally, I can't make donations when I know nothing about the goals. It's not building trust when the guild leader who asks you for donations, suspects you of being a spy at the same time.

I preferred guilds who were transparent about the ways I could contribute AND who matched my ability to contribute. I didn't need to know the bid amounts (though in 2 cases, I did have a pretty good idea of the bid), but I did want my contributions to happen naturally through participation in trading and the guild's activities as I chose.

For me, that meant:
Having a sales requirement that was well within my weekly sales rate
Having a raffle that was well within my weekly profit
Having an auction that offered items that I wanted for bid
Donations were freely given, not begged for

With the variety of guilds on PC/NA, I never had problems finding guilds that fit my requirements, including one with no requirements but a fantastic auction.

akdave0 · January 12

That seems stressful. That aspect of the game is foreign to me. But, on the surface it would appear that you are no longer playing a game, you are running a virtual business, without the benefit of a salary.

Nestor · January 13

Czinczar wrote: »

Personally, I think there is a problem with donations when the donator is not supposed to know anything. So when the supposed donator asks "what guild trader are we targeting this week?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, it's a secret". When the supposed donator asks "how much is needed?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, there may be spies". That's a problem in itself. Personally, I can't make donations when I know nothing about the goals. It's not building trust when the guild leader who asks you for donations, suspects you of being a spy at the same time.

I don't know of a guild that gets Kiosks on a regular basis that will advertise out to the members what Kiosk they are going to get, or what they are going to pay for it. That is just asking for the Kiosk to be targeted or out bid.

If you don't trust your leadership, leave the guild.

Or, do your donations retroactively. If they get a kiosk that meets your standard, then donate. Of course, not donating and benefiting from a kiosk you don't approve of is a *** move. So, best advice is to donate some percentage of your weekly sales. 5% to 10% is good.

JKorr · January 13

Czinczar wrote: »

Personally, I think there is a problem with donations when the donator is not supposed to know anything. So when the supposed donator asks "what guild trader are we targeting this week?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, it's a secret". When the supposed donator asks "how much is needed?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, there may be spies". That's a problem in itself. Personally, I can't make donations when I know nothing about the goals. It's not building trust when the guild leader who asks you for donations, suspects you of being a spy at the same time.

Might have been different for your guild, however my trading guild knows that our gm is going to try for the same trader we have; only if we're outbid do the gm and officers try for a different trader. I don't expect to know how much the bid will be; I trust the gm and officers. There are legitimate reasons for not broadcasting how much the bid will be. I have no set dues to pay, because there are no required sales or dues for my trading guild. I do not have problems donating 30k-40k a week, especially when I bother to actually sell stuff. Last week I ended up with around 167k. If I actually attempted to make gold, I'd easily clear more. If I took advantage of the 3 guilds I'm in who normally get traders every week, I'd have a LOT more gold. None of them have dues or sales requirements, only one is a "trading" guild, the other two are social ones.

cyclonus11 · January 13

@ZOS_GinaBruno Please read this thread and pass it along to whomever needs to read it. The guild trader system is terribly broken. I've had several guild leaders give it up because of it, citing stress (!!! this is supposed to be a game - as in, FUN) as the reason. (One guild leader quit the game entirely)

Please look at making it less stressful, or implement a global trader.

Chaos2088 · January 13

A computer game should be fun,

idk · January 13

Nestor wrote: »

I am in two social guilds that get traders on a regular basis. We don't go for Tier 1 traders, we get the out of the way Tier 2 and 3 Traders. We never spend more than the donations we get, and we never ask for donations, just use what some of the guildies deposit.

Even getting Tier 2 and 3 Traders, we still move the merchandise we list. It just takes a few extra days. However for the purposes of shedding excess inventory, that is just fine.

Heck. I am in a PVE guild that often gets traders for the minimum bid. Granted not every week but often. I sell plenty through the traders they get. Granted, the person that takes care of this task has been pretty good at getting decent locations outside of the hotter areas.

But yes, if it is a hassle of leadership then do not bother with it.

NordSwordnBoard · January 13

Now seize the means of production, by force if necessary!

Eormenric · January 13

I like your decision to remove the stress and barrier a trader can cause. From my own experience, coming back to the game, out of 5 guilds, I choose to only join 2-3 that have a trader (maybe 1 in a high traffic area, and some in lesser). The rest of the guilds I join are all about PvP or trials/progression. It allows me to sell when I want but not feel like I have a second job.

Though, I do think going for lesser trading areas can be beneficial for the guild so long as you heavily implore them to get MM/TTC. That way, even if you're lurking in a ghost town, someone searching on the website can go "Oh! That price is lowest! I'll make a trip out there."

Traders are best for posting niche goods. Non-trader guilds benefit from selling the most common items everyone needs.

Cavedog · January 13

...the bidding system for traders needs an overhaul or to at least go back to how it originally was....then be overhauled to be more user friendly and less cutthroat.

Joosef_Kivikilpi · January 13

Alhatariel wrote: »

After fixing a trader for my guild in several years I released myself from having a trader last week. I have a social guild but also had the opinion that I should also provide a trader for my guildmembers. After a few years with bidding, having auctions frequently and using much of my own money I quit participating in this tradersystem where I had problems with from the day 1 in the game. I felt from the first bid for a trader with my guild that I was forced to join a tradersystem which I experienced as unfair, unneeded and tiresome. From my opinion should every guild with more than 400 members have a free trader, on a rotating base, so all guilds should experience of having a trader on the populair and quiet traderplaces. But.... we have no choice and I surrendered and fixed a trader in many years, providing the gold in my guild with what we did sell plus using my own money. This obligation made that I hardly was present in the guild or for guildactivities because I had a busy job getting in the money needed for the bidding. Doing daily writs with 10 chars, doing auctions regularly and farming mats to sell stuff. Many new guilds did appear the last year and the competition became bigger.

Ofcourse could I have had the possibility to demand from guildmembers a weekly donation of 50K or 100K, as many other guilds do.
But.....I dont want to be such a Guild. I want my guildmembers friendship, their commitment and support: and not their money. I made the best facilities in the game with all craftingsets, Mundus Stones, Dummies etc etc. I want them to feel appreciated and valued without demanding money of them.
Its certainly possible also to find other, less civilised ways to get in gold as we could read here last week in our forum. All of this caused of a tradersystem that puts pressure on us and multi bidding did not make it easier eighter.

So now I stopped bidding and I feel free at last from an unjust system! I got much support from my team and guildmembers: we are a social guild and sell stuff can be done in other trading guilds.
Now I suddenly have time for the things that got me started a guild a few years ago: having quality time with my guildmembers, doing runs, doing trials, planning guildactivities from fishing to housing and outfit contests. But most important of all: getting to know our guildmembers, meet them, feeling buddies and raid collegues.
In stead of being some vague guildleader who is always busy.....

So I finally start a new episode of enjoying my beloved game again with the freedom of not being forced into an unacceptable bidding and trading system that almost took my fun in the game away..........

Ala
Meridias Light

I've actually considered setting up a personal shop during some time of the week I play, like sitting in my beloved Crosswych, and selling items I've collected for low prices and stop the hassle of the trade system. I think it would be great fun and a solid roleplay moment as well.

Kagukan · January 13

Guild trader system is the worst auction system in the history of MMO's.

Kingslayer513 · January 13

Why is the trade system unjust and unfair? Why is bidding on traders unreasonable? What substance is there to back up your claims?

I'm in guilds that dabble in trading on the side and have no requirements. They secure traders every week via a community effort in the guild. Yes it is some work to host auctions and raffles, but they have fun with it. If you are shouldering the entirety of this work yourself and it has burned you out, then I'm sorry but it is a leadership and management problem, not the trade system itself.

Danikat · January 13

Nestor wrote: »

Czinczar wrote: »

Personally, I think there is a problem with donations when the donator is not supposed to know anything. So when the supposed donator asks "what guild trader are we targeting this week?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, it's a secret". When the supposed donator asks "how much is needed?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, there may be spies". That's a problem in itself. Personally, I can't make donations when I know nothing about the goals. It's not building trust when the guild leader who asks you for donations, suspects you of being a spy at the same time.

I don't know of a guild that gets Kiosks on a regular basis that will advertise out to the members what Kiosk they are going to get, or what they are going to pay for it. That is just asking for the Kiosk to be targeted or out bid.

If you don't trust your leadership, leave the guild.

Or, do your donations retroactively. If they get a kiosk that meets your standard, then donate. Of course, not donating and benefiting from a kiosk you don't approve of is a *** move. So, best advice is to donate some percentage of your weekly sales. 5% to 10% is good.

One of my guilds will sometimes say, after the fact, how much they paid for a trader but I think that's to help the members understand how much it costs and why they ask for donations in addition to the money made through taxes on sales. (This is very much a casual, social guild and not many people use the trader so it's unlikely sales taxes alone would pay for one.)

Kingslayer513 · January 13

Nestor wrote: »

Czinczar wrote: »

Personally, I think there is a problem with donations when the donator is not supposed to know anything. So when the supposed donator asks "what guild trader are we targeting this week?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, it's a secret". When the supposed donator asks "how much is needed?", the guild leader answers "I can't say, there may be spies". That's a problem in itself. Personally, I can't make donations when I know nothing about the goals. It's not building trust when the guild leader who asks you for donations, suspects you of being a spy at the same time.

I don't know of a guild that gets Kiosks on a regular basis that will advertise out to the members what Kiosk they are going to get, or what they are going to pay for it. That is just asking for the Kiosk to be targeted or out bid.

If you don't trust your leadership, leave the guild.

Or, do your donations retroactively. If they get a kiosk that meets your standard, then donate. Of course, not donating and benefiting from a kiosk you don't approve of is a *** move. So, best advice is to donate some percentage of your weekly sales. 5% to 10% is good.

I don't know of any decent trade guilds that don't advertise "stable trader in location X". Everyone knows that they are bidding on the same trader each week. Trade guilds that bounce around too much don't do as well.

Filgolf · January 16

I'm pretty new in this game, so haven't yet figured out all the nuts and bolts under the hood. But the trading system seems a bit too complicated.. Why not make some shared traders with limited slots per Guild member… Say 3 slots for each guildmember… Every Guild get some space at a shared trader, when the Guild is created.

Happy you finally decided to give up on the trader race, the most important is to enjoy the game, having fun and don't make it another job

As this is my first post i'm not permitted to make a PM, but i think Wenn, Mellia and Voici want me to send greetings to you if you are the Ala we all know from Earendils Light

BansheeVT · January 16

First of all, @Alhatariel I'm happy for you that you can enjoy the game again

there's no need to have a trader if you're not a trading guild imo. Of course, it's nice to have one but with the ability to join 5 guilds there should also be enough people who are willing to join a social guild without trader and it can be relaxing for guild members aswell not having to sell or donate x gold per week.

I have to disagree with this though:

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

I don't know of any decent trade guilds that don't advertise "stable trader in location X". Everyone knows that they are bidding on the same trader each week. Trade guilds that bounce around too much don't do as well.

My main guild Valinor Traders has another spot almost every week and we exceeded 90m sales yesterday (wednesday) evening, have 450+ members, etc

And overall I like the guild trader system. If you want you can make it to the top, if you don't want to, just don't feel pressured to do it. There are lots of great guilds without a trader or with a low tier one. Enjoy the game and don't put that pressure on yourself and your guild just because others tell you you should. After all it's still your guild and they can leave if they do not agree with your way of leading.

Alhatariel · January 16

Filgolf wrote: »

I'm pretty new in this game, so haven't yet figured out all the nuts and bolts under the hood. But the trading system seems a bit too complicated.. Why not make some shared traders with limited slots per Guild member… Say 3 slots for each guildmember… Every Guild get some space at a shared trader, when the Guild is created.

Happy you finally decided to give up on the trader race, the most important is to enjoy the game, having fun and don't make it another job

As this is my first post i'm not permitted to make a PM, but i think Wenn, Mellia and Voici want me to send greetings to you if you are the Ala we all know from Earendils Light

I am :-) Thank you!

victory.immortalb16_ESO · January 16

Unfortunately both the trading guilds I joined a couple of years ago have now bit the dust- the last one is still there but hasn't bothered with a trading spot of several months now due to the farce of the bidding system and the fact it became too much of a job for the guild leaders.

This is part of the wider issue as the game matures, which is the gradual loss of players and the concentration of trading power in the hands of a couple of alliances of trading guilds who continually hold all the top trading spots- which a newer guild has absolutely no chance of ever getting and so the ball keeps rolling.

Semi-casuals aren't served by a system requiring so much input for what should be a minor part of the game- being able to sell items to other players and have maximum exposure to the market.

I'd like to see all traders moved to a new area called 'traders hall' where every guild that wants a pitch can have one, and there are 5 teleports into the area (one at each compass point and one in the centre) and you are randomly ported in to any of them each time you enter. Fixed commission for all sales in the area deducted by the game plus whatever a guild wants to charge it's members.

Or just add in a proper auction house and see how many use it (small listing fee refunded if not sold and say 5% commission deducted on sale). Restrictions on number of listings per player to prevent some using it as storage.

Knightpanther · January 16

Hope you find the game more enjoyable now mate, the trading system in ESO is the worst ive ever come across, the sooner we can have a global auction system the better (i know it wont happen), this would take the stress away from GMs and let guilds be what they always have been in MMOs - a social experience.

Be safe

DMBCML · January 16

Perhaps it's time to increase either the number of guilds we can join and the number of members each guild. But, what if all guild traders were moved to a central location, set up in rows. Then the bidding would likely fall on trying to get the traders closest to the wayshrine, or to get one at all.

Or, perhaps each guild leader can just open a guild trader in the central location (or any location for that matter) and no bidding necessary. For a gold sink, they could charge a set amount of gold for setting up the trader.

I like the idea of each guild owner being able to just open a guild shop where ever they set the shop.

I feel like I have to choose between guild trading and social guilds. I would so much like to have guilds large enough that the guild members don't feel so pressured to provide enough gold for the trader bids. Larger guilds would increase revenue through the existing sales tax. Being able to join more than five guilds would increase the number of items I could list. I am in two non-trading guilds and often consider leaving them so I could have those slots, but those are also stress free guilds. Or, just increase the number of items a person can list in each guild store. I have HUNDREDS of items to list and it will be months before they can get listed, clogging up my storage, or just deconstructing or using up the mats myself instead of putting them in the guild stores, or worse yet, simply putting the mats in the crafting bag and letting them sit.

Two of the trading guilds do the best they can to get and keep traders, the third seems to have given up working at it. I haven't seen auctions there in quite a while and it shows in the guild trader we've been getting. Sales are down to one sale for the whole week from that guild whereas I have had to restock the other shops several times. I hate that I think about if I am going to list this item or that with that guild because it may not sell for weeks (or not at all) as opposed to days in the other two guilds.

So, increasing the number guilds we may join, increasing the number of members per guild, and allowing guild owners to set up shop for the guild in any location they choose, or if ZOS really needs to have the gold sink of the bidding process use a central location for all traders would go a long way towards curing so much of the complaints people have. It might take some doing to implement these ideas, but it would be well worth it as people will more interested in participating in the markets.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I hope they consider these ideas seriously. Obviously a central location with bid on traders would be easiest since all the components are already in place. But giving location of trader control to the guild leaders would make the game truly unique among the gaming world.

ZeroXFF · January 16

I've switched to mostly playing GW2 the past 2 months, only logging in to ESO for trials with my guild once or twice a week. The trading system in GW2 is so much better. You can place sell and buy offers, and people who are impatient are either selling at the buyers price, or buying at the sellers price. Trading is fast and efficient, and you don't even have to sort search results once you found the item that you need, because it automatically offers you the best price available at the moment.

And before the illiterate people go on about performance - no performance issues there, even though there is a single market for EU and NA (with only China getting a separate one). It's in fact faster than the search on guild traders that we have in ESO. So the question is not whether it's possible to do it without performance issues, but whether there is the will to do it, and with all the effort being put into the LFG system lately, I'm hoping the same can be done for the trading system.