What 20m Scorch? Is the direction of Scorch balance compare to other aoe skills

phoenixkungfu

Without a doubt the buff to warden is op. They break every rule of combat. Its almost to the point of pay to win. 20 m Scorch is way to much range(WITHOUT A TARGET RULE OF DAMAGE THAT IS DIFFERENT TO NEARBY). On a aoe skill that if lined up CAN'T BE DOGDE ROLL. This skill with drawnbreaker is crazy broken. IF the direction is a SORCERER ULTIMATE OVERLOAD CANT REACH PAST 8M. Then how is if balance to say drawnbreaker is 10 meters and Scorch 20m. If it's about money I will gladly give it to have a balance level playing field. The aoe of warden is out of control. As stam set up they have been buff to being broken. There is 0 draw back to mega healing, speed, aoe burst, range and buggy OFF BALANCE. Yes super broken is the abilitie to heavy attack to a half way point and get the full benefit of a true heavy attack. Smh.

SodanTok

Okay there calm down buddy. It seems you are ranting and that is rarely connected to well thought post about combat balance. Maybe try sleeping over and come back with something better?

phoenixkungfu

Somebody has to say it. Guess it has to be me.

Luede

scorch/morphs are only dangerous in close combat (burst combos with dawnbreaker / Dizzy...) so it doesnt matter if this skill has 20 m.

phoenixkungfu

Luede wrote: »

scorch/morphs are only dangerous in close combat (burst combos with dawnbreaker / Dizzy...) so it doesnt matter if this skill has 20 m.

I can live with that. So why is it 20m then. In group play, stam melee warden has range of a bow, burst of a nightblade, speed of a sorc and healing of a templar?

Luede

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

scorch/morphs are only dangerous in close combat (burst combos with dawnbreaker / Dizzy...) so it doesnt matter if this skill has 20 m.

I can live with that. So why is it 20m then.

frankly I didn't even know it was 20m. But that shows even more that it doesn't matter.

Asardes

For PvE, it has almost the same area as Wall of Elements, which is 18m. It's a delayed damage ability, but you can consider it a 3s DoT for this purpose. For PvP it's relatively easy to avoid since you can watch the circle at the feet of the caster to see when it goes off, and simply move out of the way. So in practice it's more of a melee skill, if you're dealing with reasonably skilled players, and not potatoes.

VaranisArano

Have you actually used Scorch, or are you just looking at the skill on paper and declaring that it breaks the "rules" of combat?

Do note that ZOS already did the pass on DKs, Sorcs, and Wardens, so the actual people in charge of making skills work the way they do aren't too worried about the range of Scorch.

phoenixkungfu

Asardes wrote: »

For PvE, it has almost the same area as Wall of Elements, which is 18m. It's a delayed damage ability, but you can consider it a 3s DoT for this purpose. For PvP it's relatively easy to avoid since you can watch the circle at the feet of the caster to see when it goes off, and simply move out of the way. So in practice it's more of a melee skill, if you're dealing with reasonably skilled players, and not potatoes.

Stam Scorch cost 2k. It's the cheapest cost. It reach 20m. It has nothing to do with wall of elements. Its broken. With bird stam that now set off balance. A medium charge heavy attack stun. This includes from a bow. Crazy unbalance

MartiniDaniels

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

For PvE, it has almost the same area as Wall of Elements, which is 18m. It's a delayed damage ability, but you can consider it a 3s DoT for this purpose. For PvP it's relatively easy to avoid since you can watch the circle at the feet of the caster to see when it goes off, and simply move out of the way. So in practice it's more of a melee skill, if you're dealing with reasonably skilled players, and not potatoes.

Stam Scorch cost 2k. It's the cheapest cost. It reach 20m. It has nothing to do with wall of elements. Its broken. With bird stam that now set off balance. A medium charge heavy attack stun. This includes from a bow. Crazy unbalance

Warden doesn't have stun, doesn't have gap closer, doesn't have spammable. Sure, warden hits very hard when his burst lands against you when you are busy / cc'd by somebody else. But in 1v1 you can dodge / cc each shalk burst attempt. So basically 1 time you cc warden and shalks go to nowhere, second time you roll-dodge into warden and shalks go to nowhere too. What it broken about warden is free major mending and northern storm/permafrost ultimates, but shalks can be countered by active defense.

phoenixkungfu

VaranisArano wrote: »

Have you actually used Scorch, or are you just looking at the skill on paper and declaring that it breaks the "rules" of combat?

Do note that ZOS already did the pass on DKs, Sorcs, and Wardens, so the actual people in charge of making skills work the way they do aren't too worried about the range of Scorch.

Ok who decision was it to make the stam version cost 2k while magic version cost 2400. You can pull the zos card but the aoe damage breaks the rules of combat. Something has to give. There is no target damage rule for a target. The damage range is out of control. plus it breaks your armor to all targets?

phoenixkungfu

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

For PvE, it has almost the same area as Wall of Elements, which is 18m. It's a delayed damage ability, but you can consider it a 3s DoT for this purpose. For PvP it's relatively easy to avoid since you can watch the circle at the feet of the caster to see when it goes off, and simply move out of the way. So in practice it's more of a melee skill, if you're dealing with reasonably skilled players, and not potatoes.

Stam Scorch cost 2k. It's the cheapest cost. It reach 20m. It has nothing to do with wall of elements. Its broken. With bird stam that now set off balance. A medium charge heavy attack stun. This includes from a bow. Crazy unbalance

Warden doesn't have stun, doesn't have gap closer, doesn't have spammable. Sure, warden hits very hard when his burst lands against you when you are busy / cc'd by somebody else. But in 1v1 you can dodge / cc each shalk burst attempt. So basically 1 time you cc warden and shalks go to nowhere, second time you roll-dodge into warden and shalks go to nowhere too. What it broken about warden is free major mending and northern storm/permafrost ultimates, but shalks can be countered by active defense.

Yes this is also a issue. The reward of being a support class and having way to much burst.
(Also warden do have spamable birds and they set off balance

Tolino

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Without a doubt the buff to warden is op. They break every rule of combat. Its almost to the point of pay to win. 20 m Scorch is way to much range(WITHOUT A TARGET RULE OF DAMAGE THAT IS DIFFERENT TO NEARBY). On a aoe skill that if lined up CAN'T BE DOGDE ROLL. This skill with drawnbreaker is crazy broken. IF the direction is a SORCERER ULTIMATE OVERLOAD CANT REACH PAST 8M. Then how is if balance to say drawnbreaker is 10 meters and Scorch 20m. If it's about money I will gladly give it to have a balance level playing field. The aoe of warden is out of control. As stam set up they have been buff to being broken. There is 0 draw back to mega healing, speed, aoe burst, range and buggy OFF BALANCE. Yes super broken is the abilitie to heavy attack to a half way point and get the full benefit of a true heavy attack. Smh.

You are awsome!
No idea about the game, but a nerf/buff thread every day.

Ps. Show me where these "Combat-rules" can be found!

Edit. I HAVE SPOKEN!

MartiniDaniels

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

For PvE, it has almost the same area as Wall of Elements, which is 18m. It's a delayed damage ability, but you can consider it a 3s DoT for this purpose. For PvP it's relatively easy to avoid since you can watch the circle at the feet of the caster to see when it goes off, and simply move out of the way. So in practice it's more of a melee skill, if you're dealing with reasonably skilled players, and not potatoes.

Stam Scorch cost 2k. It's the cheapest cost. It reach 20m. It has nothing to do with wall of elements. Its broken. With bird stam that now set off balance. A medium charge heavy attack stun. This includes from a bow. Crazy unbalance

Warden doesn't have stun, doesn't have gap closer, doesn't have spammable. Sure, warden hits very hard when his burst lands against you when you are busy / cc'd by somebody else. But in 1v1 you can dodge / cc each shalk burst attempt. So basically 1 time you cc warden and shalks go to nowhere, second time you roll-dodge into warden and shalks go to nowhere too. What it broken about warden is free major mending and northern storm/permafrost ultimates, but shalks can be countered by active defense.

Yes this is also a issue. The reward of being a support class and having way to much burst.
(Also warden do have spamable birds and they set off balance

Bird is more about debuff then spammable. Damage is too low to be real spammable imo and majority of stamdens will use dizzy... solo magdens are not a big threat if you won't go all-in on them trying to outdps permanent major mending at execute zone. Grouped 3-4 magdens are completely broken with northern storm rotation/stacking, but from what I saw nobody cares because they have several magdens themselves. If you are solo player and see camping magden smallscale just go to another part of map, I guess that's it.

phoenixkungfu

Tolino wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Without a doubt the buff to warden is op. They break every rule of combat. Its almost to the point of pay to win. 20 m Scorch is way to much range(WITHOUT A TARGET RULE OF DAMAGE THAT IS DIFFERENT TO NEARBY). On a aoe skill that if lined up CAN'T BE DOGDE ROLL. This skill with drawnbreaker is crazy broken. IF the direction is a SORCERER ULTIMATE OVERLOAD CANT REACH PAST 8M. Then how is if balance to say drawnbreaker is 10 meters and Scorch 20m. If it's about money I will gladly give it to have a balance level playing field. The aoe of warden is out of control. As stam set up they have been buff to being broken. There is 0 draw back to mega healing, speed, aoe burst, range and buggy OFF BALANCE. Yes super broken is the abilitie to heavy attack to a half way point and get the full benefit of a true heavy attack. Smh.

You are awsome!
No idea about the game, but a nerf/buff thread every day.

Ps. Show me where these "Combat-rules" can be found!

Edit. I HAVE SPOKEN!

Balance-a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.

Now compare warden aoe damage to sorcerer or templar.
Templar and sorcerer damage is different from target and nearby.

This is not balance. The rules of class aoe burst was a direction of a target damage being different from nearby. Now newer classes have a different version.one way or another aoe rules need to apply for all classes.

VaranisArano

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Have you actually used Scorch, or are you just looking at the skill on paper and declaring that it breaks the "rules" of combat?

Do note that ZOS already did the pass on DKs, Sorcs, and Wardens, so the actual people in charge of making skills work the way they do aren't too worried about the range of Scorch.

Ok who decision was it to make the stam version cost 2k while magic version cost 2400. You can pull the zos card but the aoe damage breaks the rules of combat. Something has to give. There is no target damage rule for a target. The damage range is out of control. plus it breaks your armor to all targets?

So, no, you haven't used Scorch in PVP, you definitely haven't used it in PVE, and you certainly haven't paid attention to why ZOS routinely makes stam skills cost less than their magicka equivalent.

This is one of those situations where you would really benefit from playing other classes in different types of content before you go around trying to enforce your personal vision of how the game ought to operate.

I don't expect you to, since like many nerf-posters who believe that getting killed by a skill qualifies them to authoritatively ask for nerfs to it, you apparently believe that looking at Scorch on paper and deeming it out of line with your combat rules justifies you calling for nerfs. Which gives you about as much credence as it does them - which to say, none at all.

The Uninvited

SodanTok wrote: »

Okay there calm down buddy. It seems you are ranting and that is rarely connected to well thought post about combat balance. Maybe try sleeping over and come back with something better?

OP rants about other classes being too powerful and wants them nerfed but sorcereers should be buffed. Just leave it.

Fur_like_snow

Maybe try a class besides your pet sorc and you’d see why scorch works the way it does. I really get the impression you just look at a death recap, then read a tooltip right before you post another nerf thread.

thadjarvis

This post is in general Character Mechanics instead of PvP Combat & Skills without any consideration for PvE, which seems to be a common theme.

Fissure's reduced range is a huge limiting factor. The primary mag trials are AS/CR: the lack of range of Fissure, bear travel time, and negative execute (BT doesn't modify Bear) are huge disadvantages relative to other classes. EG, a magden often can't hit creepers/orbs with a large portion of burst damage unlike 4 other classes.

Regarding PvP, proccing OB, medium attack stun, and fissure combo takes quite a bit of skill to pull off in both button pressing and it's very contingent on positioning. Consider that a sorc can place a pre-proc execute, stun, and hit them with a crystal. No positioning is required, timing of casts does not have to be precise, and it can all be done from any range including max.

SidraWillowsky

Can you stop please? Your posts reek of "I died to XX class so I'm going to request that the class gets nerfed". It's clear you know nothing about the Warden class.

SidraWillowsky

thadjarvis wrote: »

This post is in general Character Mechanics instead of PvP Combat & Skills without any consideration for PvE, which seems to be a common theme.

Fissure's reduced range is a huge limiting factor. The primary mag trials are AS/CR: the lack of range of Fissure, bear travel time, and negative execute (BT doesn't modify Bear) are huge disadvantages relative to other classes. EG, a magden often can't hit creepers/orbs with a large portion of burst damage unlike 4 other classes.

Regarding PvP, proccing OB, medium attack stun, and fissure combo takes quite a bit of skill to pull off in both button pressing and it's very contingent on positioning. Consider that a sorc can place a pre-proc execute, stun, and hit them with a crystal. No positioning is required, timing of casts does not have to be precise, and it can all be done from any range including max.

Yup, exactly. I was going to mention the issues Wardens have in AS as well- Shalks don't hit the boss when you're so far away at times.

Stamdens have access to executes (Whirling Blades, Executioner), but they require very close combat, which isn't always ideal. Magdens are one of the few DD classes with zero access to an execute, class-based or otherwise.

All the time that OP has used to writing these nonsensical posts could and should have been used L2P-ing...

MentalxHammer

Phoenix needs gtfo the forums, he only plays magsorc and complains when he dies to anything. Dude Pheonix go play a warden and see how easy it is to counter the combo, show me videos of YOU being overpowered on warden. I play every class and can say that warden is the hardest class to play, the burst combo takes a lot of skill to line up.

Asardes

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

For PvE, it has almost the same area as Wall of Elements, which is 18m. It's a delayed damage ability, but you can consider it a 3s DoT for this purpose. For PvP it's relatively easy to avoid since you can watch the circle at the feet of the caster to see when it goes off, and simply move out of the way. So in practice it's more of a melee skill, if you're dealing with reasonably skilled players, and not potatoes.

Stam Scorch cost 2k. It's the cheapest cost. It reach 20m. It has nothing to do with wall of elements. Its broken. With bird stam that now set off balance. A medium charge heavy attack stun. This includes from a bow. Crazy unbalance

Stamina abilities are cheaper than magicka across the board, one of the reasons being Minor Magickasteal debuff. So it's balanced. Scorch is not special. Dive only sets off-balance if you are more than 7 m away, and that puts you outside any melee skill range. Bow heavy attacks take a very long time to charge, and they're easy to dodge. Even if you get stunned you have time to break free since the Warden still has to close the gap to use Executioner. So your arguments are completely invalid.

NBrookus

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Have you actually used Scorch, or are you just looking at the skill on paper and declaring that it breaks the "rules" of combat?

Do note that ZOS already did the pass on DKs, Sorcs, and Wardens, so the actual people in charge of making skills work the way they do aren't too worried about the range of Scorch.

Ok who decision was it to make the stam version cost 2k while magic version cost 2400. You can pull the zos card but the aoe damage breaks the rules of combat. Something has to give. There is no target damage rule for a target. The damage range is out of control. plus it breaks your armor to all targets?

Because all stam skills are 20% cheaper. That is by design.

MentalxHammer

Have you tried landing long range scorches??? I have played a bow main bar warden build in an attempt to take advantage of the 20m range on scorch. It is literally impossible to land at such a distance, it is really only viable at melee range. Attempting 20m scorches is a waste of time, you literally need to pray your target is an immovable potato.

jaws343

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Phoenix needs gtfo the forums, he only plays magsorc and complains when he dies to anything. Dude Pheonix go play a warden and see how easy it is to counter the combo, show me videos of YOU being overpowered on warden. I play every class and can say that warden is the hardest class to play, the burst combo takes a lot of skill to line up.

We really need to just stop commenting or engaging with posts from the OP. Every post is the same and provide uninformed feedback. The last thing new or learning players need is a series of threads where 99% of the posters are arguing in unison against an irrational player who isn't attempting to learn anything, just tear it down to what suits them.

But, the evaluation of this skilled by the OP is severely biased and misinformed. There is nothing wrong with the Warden burst. And the range is irrelevant. Especially if you plan on lining it up with Dawnbreaker or another stam ultimate since you need to be in range of that ultimate for it to all land. So what difference does it make if Scorch had a 100M range. You still would need to be closer to land the rest of the combo and you would still need your opponent to not move left or right or through you to avoid it.

But, oh no, they hit you at 20M... after a 3 second, telegraphed delay... and now they still need to close that 20M gap to do anything else. Maybe learn to stun them, or heal during that time. Or, idk, maybe block... you have 3 seconds and they are miles away from you apparently.

Xvorg

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

For PvE, it has almost the same area as Wall of Elements, which is 18m. It's a delayed damage ability, but you can consider it a 3s DoT for this purpose. For PvP it's relatively easy to avoid since you can watch the circle at the feet of the caster to see when it goes off, and simply move out of the way. So in practice it's more of a melee skill, if you're dealing with reasonably skilled players, and not potatoes.

Stam Scorch cost 2k. It's the cheapest cost. It reach 20m. It has nothing to do with wall of elements. Its broken. With bird stam that now set off balance. A medium charge heavy attack stun. This includes from a bow. Crazy unbalance

And has a cast time... people forgets about that.

It is not an instant cast skill

Xvorg

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Have you actually used Scorch, or are you just looking at the skill on paper and declaring that it breaks the "rules" of combat?

Do note that ZOS already did the pass on DKs, Sorcs, and Wardens, so the actual people in charge of making skills work the way they do aren't too worried about the range of Scorch.

Ok who decision was it to make the stam version cost 2k while magic version cost 2400. You can pull the zos card but the aoe damage breaks the rules of combat. Something has to give. There is no target damage rule for a target. The damage range is out of control. plus it breaks your armor to all targets?

It has been stated, long, long ago that stam skills are cheaper that mag skills...

Nord_Raseri

Take 2 steps to the left/right and watch those beetles go right by.

phoenixkungfu

Once again the super friend have SPOKEN. If scorches are so much of a prayer to use then it's fair to say that the stam morph can de decrease in range if the goal is to land with10m drawnbreaker. 10m stam scorches is fair. Group of warden stam scorches is not fair. scorches not a projectile. It's a ground based aoe which mean it cant be dodge roll. So the hard to land scorches is in reality a 50% chance to land. Which means there is a guessing game if scorches is going to hit despite a roll dogde.

Xvorg

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Once again the super friend have SPOKEN. If scorches are so much of a prayer to use then it's fair to say that the stam morph can de decrease in range if the goal is to land with10m drawnbreaker. 10m stam scorches is fair. Group of warden stam scorches is not fair. scorches not a projectile. It's a ground based aoe which mean it cant be dodge roll. So the hard to land scorches is in reality a 50% chance to land. Which means there is a guessing game if scorches is going to hit despite a roll dogde.

again, it is a delayed attack you can easily avoid if you pay attention to what are you doing. It falls in the same category than rune cage