Please begin rebuilding ESO from the ground up

Cavedog

After all these years of patching, and all the hollow promises of fixing the lag and fps drops that often lead to a disconnection, ZOS, PLEASE, please start rebuilding ESO from the ground up.

We have been promised for years that multiple patches would address these issues, and some patches have actually seemed to help, but overall it's become obvious that ZOS can not patch their way out of this situation. ZOS is going to have to get serious and spend the money and do what it takes to start over to fix these issues. A patch or series of patches is not going to get the job done. If a patch could fix these issues, it would have by now.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about are the promises and issues surrounding the group finder. For three years we've been told they are working on it and they'll fix it. For three years running the Undaunted event has had to be cancelled due to group finder malfunctioning. The problems are with the core code, not something that can be patched.

Enough of the petty editing on the forums. Enough of the hollow promises. ESO is the best MMO ever created and maybe the best game ever created. That is why it's worth it to start over from the ground up and make this work. Many of us have several thousand dollars or more invested into this game and we are not getting the respect we pay for. It's time to get serious and actually work on something that will result in improving our game performance.

FierceSam

That would essentially be a completely new game. Which I assume requires time and resources ZOS aren’t prepared to commit.

It might be cool if I could carry across my characters, achievements, loot and all that, but if it was a ‘start again from scratch’ proposition, I’m not sure how interested I’d be.

And it’s probably also one of those “if I was going to start again, I wouldn’t start from here” situations.

essi2

Would require too much money and time to do.


Yes, it needs to be done, we'll probably not get it unless it is a new game we have to buy.

Best we can hope for is new server infrastructure, a gfx pass seems unlikely too given ZOS' 'Do not touch' policy for assets.

Deathlord92

Im not interested in restarting i like what I have been playing since day 1 I love my stamblade and I have so much stuff and invested a lot of money into eso. I’d rather performance fixes then a new game.

Asardes

I think the main limitation with ESO is older generation consoles and even older PCs; what improvements they did do mostly improved performance for weak client systems like that. From the outset they had to make the game simple enough to work on those. If they rebuild it or even buff the graphics too much, those wouldn't be able to cope and the game would probably become unplayable so those users would basically become locked out of a game they paid for, unless they buy the newer generation of console or a newer PC.

essi2

Asardes wrote: »

I think the main limitation with ESO is older generation consoles and even older PCs; what improvements they did do mostly improved performance for weak client systems like that. From the outset they had to make the game simple enough to work on those. If they rebuild it or even buff the graphics too much, those wouldn't be able to cope and the game would probably become unplayable so those users would basically become locked out of a game they paid for, unless they buy the newer generation of console or a newer PC.

I don't know, they already did that when they switched to x64, although admittedly they locked out a very small % of the players.

Nairinhe

Thanks, I needed a good laugh
BTW, group finder was rewritten

redlink1979

@Cavedog Rebuilding the game from scratch it just won't happen. The costs are too high. Zeni really needs to address memory management, they need to make it more efficient because atm it seems that's the main issue in the servers: the way memory is managed. It might not have been a big deal in the past when this game had a lot less players in it (PvE) but the problem subsisted in PvP where there's always been a high concentration of players/accounts. Since Elsweyr release the problem scaled exponentially due to the new players/accounts continuously added into the game. More accounts in the same area at the same time -> more calculations/more data management needed to be made by server -> increased use of memory.

When I began playing there wasn't these kind of events, who forces many accounts in the same place at once. I recall when new content came out that the problem would be more noticeable. I recall how the game is almost unplayable for me when the DB dlc came out - there was a high concentration of players in that area and that was forcing the server to make more calculations per second and by consequence using much more memory.

PS - I think the issues players have been suffering has nothing to do with consoles/pc architecture. Because the game in the past wasn't as bad as it is today regarding performance.

PS2 - Network coding it's not easy as some might think.

essi2

redlink1979 wrote: »

PS2 - Network coding it's not easy as some might think.

Nothing about making and maintaining games is easy. And I hope most people in here understand that

InaMoonlight

I'm getting a bit tired of entitled brats that buy a game in constant evolution, and then go from bugreporting to shrieking like a ....*aharhahem*

Doods, the game is evolving at 10x the rate of ANY other, its only gonna live if people stop shrieking like a Nereid, and actually bugreport consistent without abuse...It's actually a term called "Rapid evolution". Labor pains, but even now wow can kinda kiss something we sit on. Who the hell wanna see a bugreport filled with personally insulting or threatening content, or bashing to the extent where you think "Why are you even here"



They might get paid, but i don't think trauma/PTSD counseling is in the budget!

Play eso, you don't buy a "DONE" product, you buy a game in rapid evolution - that grows, with all its pains

But, if people actually bond together over a game we all love, constructive help - we are going to wipe floor with any other MMO eh?

Tip... want someone to listen, don't make them feel like getting a restraining order


Edit: Typomania OFC

SpacemanSpiff1

InaMoonlight wrote: »

I'm getting a bit tired of entitled brats that buy a game in constant evolution, and then go from bugreporting to shrieking like a ....*aharhahem*

Doods, the game is evolving at 10x the rate of ANY other, its only gonna live if people stop shrieking like a Nereid, and actually bugreport consistent without abuse...It's actually a term called "Rapid evolution". Labor pains, but even now wow can kinda kiss something we sit on. Who the hell wanna see a bugreport filled with personally insulting or threatening content, or bashing to the extent where you think "Why are you even here"



They might get paid, but i don't think trauma/PTSD counseling is in the budget!

Play eso, you don't buy a "DONE" product, you buy a game in rapid evolution - that grows, with all its pains

But, if people actually bond together over a game we all love, constructive help - we are going to wipe floor with any other MMO eh?

Tip... want someone to listen, don't make them feel like getting a restraining order


Edit: Typomania OFC

OP didn't come off as shrieking or insulting. Not sure why you're ranting about that.

IndianaJames7

InaMoonlight wrote: »

Doods, the game is evolving at 10x the rate of ANY other

Citations please?

daemonios

InaMoonlight wrote: »

I'm getting a bit tired of entitled brats that buy a game in constant evolution, and then go from bugreporting to shrieking like a ....*aharhahem*

Doods, the game is evolving at 10x the rate of ANY other, its only gonna live if people stop shrieking like a Nereid, and actually bugreport consistent without abuse...It's actually a term called "Rapid evolution". Labor pains, but even now wow can kinda kiss something we sit on. Who the hell wanna see a bugreport filled with personally insulting or threatening content, or bashing to the extent where you think "Why are you even here"



They might get paid, but i don't think trauma/PTSD counseling is in the budget!

Play eso, you don't buy a "DONE" product, you buy a game in rapid evolution - that grows, with all its pains

But, if people actually bond together over a game we all love, constructive help - we are going to wipe floor with any other MMO eh?

Tip... want someone to listen, don't make them feel like getting a restraining order


Edit: Typomania OFC

Several serious issues DO get reported in PTS and still make it through to live. The performance issues have been reported just about everywhere, to the point where ZOS have had to come up with a performance improvement plan, yet this week's console patch seems to have thrown some more manure into the fan, just as an earlier patch did on PC.

"Game is always changing" can't be an excuse. There are literally hundreds of MMOs and other kinds of always-online games that are also "always changing". While ESO is (still) among the best, it is riddled with issues that ZOS have chosen to ignore until now. Your post essentially boils down to white-knighting and victim blaming.

January1171

Cavedog wrote: »

A perfect example of what I'm talking about are the promises and issues surrounding the group finder. For three years we've been told they are working on it and they'll fix it. For three years running the Undaunted event has had to be cancelled due to group finder malfunctioning. The problems are with the core code, not something that can be patched.

Except they already did rebuild the group finder from scratch, and there are still these issues. The Undaunted event may have been derailed three years in a row, but years 1 and 2 were from the first group finder, and this year was from a completely new one. They did exactly what you're suggesting.

Veinblood1965

This is a great idea. No problem at all with everyone starting over from scratch, really what could be wrong with that?

Cavedog

January1171 wrote: »

Cavedog wrote: »

A perfect example of what I'm talking about are the promises and issues surrounding the group finder. For three years we've been told they are working on it and they'll fix it. For three years running the Undaunted event has had to be cancelled due to group finder malfunctioning. The problems are with the core code, not something that can be patched.

Except they already did rebuild the group finder from scratch, and there are still these issues. The Undaunted event may have been derailed three years in a row, but years 1 and 2 were from the first group finder, and this year was from a completely new one. They did exactly what you're suggesting.

You just made my point for me. The reason the new group finder didn't work is because the base game code is archaic. (x32) They need to rework the game from the ground up to fix these issues. If a patch could do it, they would have gotten it done by now.

Kingslayer513

Cavedog wrote: »

January1171 wrote: »

Cavedog wrote: »

A perfect example of what I'm talking about are the promises and issues surrounding the group finder. For three years we've been told they are working on it and they'll fix it. For three years running the Undaunted event has had to be cancelled due to group finder malfunctioning. The problems are with the core code, not something that can be patched.

Except they already did rebuild the group finder from scratch, and there are still these issues. The Undaunted event may have been derailed three years in a row, but years 1 and 2 were from the first group finder, and this year was from a completely new one. They did exactly what you're suggesting.

The reason the new group finder didn't work is because the base game code is archaic. (x32) They need to rework the game from the ground up to fix these issues. If a patch could do it, they would have gotten it done by now.

YIKES

Please do us all a favor and stop posting about things you know absolutely nothing about.

essi2

Cavedog wrote: »

January1171 wrote: »

Cavedog wrote: »

A perfect example of what I'm talking about are the promises and issues surrounding the group finder. For three years we've been told they are working on it and they'll fix it. For three years running the Undaunted event has had to be cancelled due to group finder malfunctioning. The problems are with the core code, not something that can be patched.

Except they already did rebuild the group finder from scratch, and there are still these issues. The Undaunted event may have been derailed three years in a row, but years 1 and 2 were from the first group finder, and this year was from a completely new one. They did exactly what you're suggesting.

You just made my point for me. The reason the new group finder didn't work is because the base game code is archaic. (x32) They need to rework the game from the ground up to fix these issues. If a patch could do it, they would have gotten it done by now.

I doubt ESO runs on a software architecture that has never been in wide usage and is only available to Linux kernels.
You probably mean x86 which is a CPU instruction set family, generally referred to as 32-bit CPUs, although it includes 8-bit through 512-bit.

While it is true that ESO was written as a 32-bit(x86) application, it currently only supports 64-bit(x86-64 or x64 for short).
Did they completely rewrite ESO for x64? Probably not, and they probably won't, though I suspect they will gradually replace old code with new as and when they see fit.

scorpius2k1

essi2 wrote: »

I doubt ESO runs on a software architecture that has never been in wide usage and is only available to Linux kernels.

Not sure I understand your angle here. Windows, Mac, and Linux all can run code backwards compatible (with maybe the latest exception being Mac OS Catalina). Windows 10 even runs some 16-bit code. Linux was actually the first OS kernel to fully support 64-bit code way back in 2001. I use Arch Linux as my main OS (which is natively 64-bit, optionally supporting 32-bit). I play ESO without any issues using DXVK to use the Vulkan API instead of DirectX, I actually get better performance on Linux than I do in Windows 10 on the same hardware.

essi2

@scorpius2k1 Code backwards compatibility with x86 is part of x86-64, has nothing to do with x32(Although it suppose it would accomplish the same thing).

x32 'ABI' "allows programs to take advantage of the benefits of x86-64 instruction set (larger number of CPU registers, better floating-point performance, faster position-independent code, shared libraries, function parameters passed via registers, faster syscall instruction) while using 32-bit pointers and thus avoiding the overhead of 64-bit pointers"

MEBengalsFan2001

I recommend continue the patching and not a full game rebuild. When a game gets a full rebuild the average player base drops for the game. One game I played loss 25% in the first day of the rebuild launch by the 3rd month the playerbase was down by 40%. Another game loss around 40% of its players on the first day of a rebuild launch and by the 3rd month it had less than 50% of the player base it had just months before.

To many developers think they need to rebuild the game and its core mechanics to save the game. No, it needs to resolve the big issues that players talk about without ruining what makes their game fun for their players. Patching is better and instead of putting so many resources into rebuilding those resources should be used to create new content.

Asardes

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I recommend continue the patching and not a full game rebuild. When a game gets a full rebuild the average player base drops for the game. One game I played loss 25% in the first day of the rebuild launch by the 3rd month the playerbase was down by 40%. Another game loss around 40% of its players on the first day of a rebuild launch and by the 3rd month it had less than 50% of the player base it had just months before.

What made players leave? Was the rebuild worse, performance wise, than the original?

Agalloch

Black Desert revamped their engine , so it's possible to do it.

Anotherone773

In order to do this...
1) they would start from scratch
2) it would take years
3) It wouldnt be the same game it is now. It would be a completely different elder scrolls set in a different time.
4) it would cost at min $100 million to develop $200-$400 million is more realistic.
5) It would use newer tech, so many of the people currently having problems with the game wouldnt be able to play it anyway. For example, it wouldnt be on PS4. You would need PS5 ( possibly PS6 by time it came out)

Last but not least:
6) They are not going to release an ESO 2 until they shut down ESO 1, because they would be competing with themselves. They are not going to shut down ESO 1 as long as it is making a profit because that would just be silly. So this game will have to be getting near death before you hear anything about ESO 2 and its not getting close to there yet. And right now, on steam, we are not far off last years numbers at the same time. Even gained about +800 avg players over last Nov. So numbers are telling me they didnt make any real gains in players this year but they also didnt lose a significant amount.

nafensoriel

People cant wait a few months for them to recode PART of the game without flipping out and you want them to take 5-8 years before a release?

KappaKid83

There are a few things here that need to be addressed that I think are really imperative to success.

1) Memory Management - It's bad and clunky and is already getting work done on it

2) Server Infrastructure - It's clear that the servers just can't handle what the game is trying to do.

3) Multicore Usage - I know some aspects of the game our computers will start to use more than one core of our multi core processors but the whole game needs to start being able to utilize everything we have for computing power.

4) Activity Finder - It is still not working as intended and is designed to use other game resources to function. It is just poor design and needs to be redone(again) from the ground up.

milllaurie

Does someone remember runescape becomming RS3? It was smooth af. Sure it had serious consequences regarding player base and had to release osrs but anyway it was super smooth from technical point of view.
You wake up one day and it's rs3 already.
Countless patches leading to it though.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

I think we need a "The Elder Scrolls Tamriel: Catalcysm" expansion for that

essi2

KappaKid83 wrote: »

3) Multicore Usage - I know some aspects of the game our computers will start to use more than one core of our multi core processors but the whole game needs to start being able to utilize everything we have for computing power.

Yes, But from what the Stellaris devs have stated on multi threading, one major issue it introduces is that instructions can start happening out of sequence, in which case you either have to build in failsafes(which slows down the instructions being executed) or you can restrict multi threading to things that can't fail or where if it fails to execute in order nobody will notice.

idk

Besides what OP is asking for taking years to accomplish it also takes a team many times larger than what Zos has. It’s typical, and what Zos did, to bring on a lot of contractors to get a game developed then release most them after the game releases. The remainder are released soon afterwards.

Not as easily or fast as OP seems to think it is.

nafensoriel

essi2 wrote: »

KappaKid83 wrote: »

3) Multicore Usage - I know some aspects of the game our computers will start to use more than one core of our multi core processors but the whole game needs to start being able to utilize everything we have for computing power.

Yes, But from what the Stellaris devs have stated on multi threading, one major issue it introduces is that instructions can start happening out of sequence, in which case you either have to build in failsafes(which slows down the instructions being executed) or you can restrict multi threading to things that can't fail or where if it fails to execute in order nobody will notice.

There is currently a physical limit to how much you can split things. No one has found a way around the issue and considering how monolithic it is it will be a while for many applications.
If you are making something like galactic civilization 3 where there are big pauses in the turn mechanic you can easily throw as many "AI" threads as you want on other cores. If you try to do that thing with a realtime game... yeah nowhere near as easy.

Think about it like an army. You need a captain to run the lieutenants so your lieutenants can run your sergeants so your sergeants can run your privates. You cant add captains so eventually you will oversaturate that thread and all the others are left waiting for commands.