Constructive PVP Improvement thread

Areloth

Hi everyone,

I was looking on the forum for a constructive thread about the issues we are facing in PVP nowadays. Beside a lot of "nerf this" and "nerf that" threads there is not really a lot to find.
So I'd like to ask you to name the main issues you see with in PVP right now.
Lag and CE are not abilities btw, we all know this is the biggest issue.
Please also take PVE into account, changes should not affect PVE directly or too hard.
I will write my opinion, everyone can respond with a logical answer why it is not a good idea, but for all the "L2P"-comments...please save your time and do something else.

1. Tankiness:
Everyone is super tanky. I am playing 5 light and 2 heavy and I have max armor stats. This is ridiculos.
Suggestion: increase cap and lower damage reduction
Example. 50% reduction with 45k resistances
So you really have to stack armor to get the max damage reduction, it is way to easy to hit the cap right now.

2. Healing
Since DoTs have been nerfed, HoTs are very powerful. Instant heals should remain strong, but be expensive.
Suggestion: Reduce HoT by 20%. Reduce the Magicka Restoration of Honor of the dead from 60% to 30%.

3. Overtuned skills
I really don't have a problem fighting templars with their jabs - but this ability is overtuned anyways. Well...it's not the ability, its the passive burning light.
To bring Jabs in line with other class spammables my recommendation is to let burning light only apply to monsters, not to players. Burning light sometimes hits harder than the jab itself.


So what do you think? What are the main issues and how could they get addressed correctly?

MajBludd

I have seen that sorc healing is a bit overtuned. Saw a video with a 19k heal off of clanfear.

Idk if this is completely accurate, but if this can be achieved, that's a bit too much, imo.

Iskiab

Asks for constructive thread about pvp... continues with all nerfs requests.

Here’s what I see as issues:
- server performance
- CC immunity should apply when being CC’d and not after successfully breaking free. Being stunned multiple times breaks break free.
- Stam need better group support
- Healing is a touch high but so is burst because of desyncs. Everyone specs as a tank because they need to or they aren’t effective. Change battle spirit to 40% damage and healing from 50% so pvp does not effect pve. This will allow players to build less tanky

ThePedge

1. Remove Faction Lock
2. Rework "Smart Healing" for only group members
3. More/any stamina utility skills

MincVinyl

tldr: pvp is riddled with people playing easy guaranteed playstyles and zos allowing it, while at the same time those builds are really all that works during *** server lag anyways so who can blame them.

---

Server performance is probs the top issue (that i think is highly unlikely to ever be fixed)
-seems like zos doesnt know what the issue really is, but they also have no way to really test it
-if they took a month or two to just disable/enable things in pvp i'm sure they could figure out where the lag is coming from, but that would basically mean people who bought and own the game would not be allowed to play it for that time period

CC has become too prevalent in the game i would say, most players cant play without stuns in their kill rotation.
-CC mechanics are clunky and probs will never be fixed (little sources of snare/root immunity, invisible snares/roots, etc.)
-how come cc immune pots can be used while cc'ed but dont break you free? (could add some skill based play for mag users)
-alot of the aoe forms of cc could be removed (cut down zerg tactics, even in bgs)

Stam is pretty much useless in group play especially with the changes to vigor
-vigor is now really situational with its morphs and there is no in between.
-resolving is great solo, but useless in a duo+
-echoing sucks ass solo(high cost if you double pump the ticks), but it is amazing in group play after 5 or 6+ people
-maybe zos could start making unmorphed options viable for the in between?
-no pvp player wants to feel completely useless in half the scenarios they come across, or have to leave cyro to remorph
(not that vigor should be the end all be all utility, but it isn't like stam users have other tools to bank off of)

Many of the issues with passive tankiness that you are seeing now a days I would say are a product of the amount of passive damage that exists in the game. dot builds are viable and compete with pretty much any type of build on each class because of their simplicity and guaranteed damage output with little counter play available. In group play even in bgs all you need is to spam aoe without a second thought as to what the enemy is doing. (stam users can pretty much just spam bombard and whirlwind until they get dbos). Beam abilities are also a good example of free passive damage, these are simply point and click damage.
-dots/procs are just the cancer of skilled competitive gameplay, damage output should be decided by skill rather than passive damage (be interesting to see the APM of a direct damage player vs a dot player)
-beam abilities could have aim checks (so you hold the button down and whatever hitbox you point at gets hit with a tick)

Healing is definitely a product of the dot meta, the only way to counter the passive damage is passive healing or mitigation. Only real issues are when you get 3-4 pug templars using stall mechanics holding block, 30k resists, earthgore, mistform, resto ult, spamming BOL on each other. Even in this case though, you could most likely just ignore these people. Chances are that when they all get to full they will just stack dots/jabs on you anyways, so not exactly fun to fight at any point.
-With the slight dot nerfs though, many hots could also be reduced.
-Possibly instead of gutting the heal numbers, gut the duration (opens possible burst windows for counterplay)
-large spammables could have stacking cost increases, but this would have too much backlash from everyone.
(atleast sorcs spamming streak wont be able to sustain it, but ive seen BOL spammers go ham on that button and survive)

---

Maybe I'm just getting jaded from dealing with a half working game for the past 4-5 years, but idk what you guys think.

Neoauspex

The counters to the first two things on your sneaky "nerf Templar" list keep getting nerfed due to forum complaints. Once jabs and/or all the other Templar skills gets nerfed, everybody will complain about Streak and Cloak etc, and so those will have to go the way of Wings. Or, instead of the infinite nerfing rabbit hole, we could ask for counters instead of nerfs. But I bet you're not willing to slot Evasion or you wouldn't have started another one of these threads.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but any discussion of "solving" the perceived balance issue in PVP, is meaningless until there are major updates in performance.

One of the biggest problems we have is that a lot builds (thinking of a classic sorc build, just as an example), work really well to the point of over performing in high lag environments, where other more complete/complex builds get out classed because skills or rather combos of skills don't fire correctly. Easy to think that in this example that the Sorc spamming shields and executes is the problem, but the reality is that performance is the elephant in the room.

Disclaimer: This is not meant to be a nerf sorc, or sorc discussion of any kind. Just pointing out that some builds work much better than others when your FPS is in the toilet.

Rahar

Honestly, I think that CP is one of the main issues in PvP when game performance is taken out of the running. Namely, it scales too high right now, and break free/roll dodge is too expensive without it.

What this results in is a CP environment where damage mitigation and healing is in abundance (due to CP percentage bloat combined with recent damage nerfs) and a non-CP environment that's actual cancer because of all the effects/sets that are being put in to be effective in CP and extreme passive damage mitigation being necessary because roll dodge/block/break free costs too much without CP. CP fights often end in stalemates and no-CP fights often abuse cheap gimmicks like bombard to bait expensive roll dodges.

The only real way to fix this is a redesign of the CP system; however, giving less points for PvP would be a decent short term fix. ~500 is my suggestion. Then, removing the "Reduce cost of X by Y%" points would be the next step, followed by a static cost reduction for break free & friends and close look at how you can make a progression system interesting without turning to flat percentages, which have a habit of getting out of control very quickly.

When that's all said and done and everything works without the scales being tipped badly in one direction or another, just remove no-CP and balance one PvP mode.

Of course, there are certain classes and skills that need some effects pruned or added to them to either bring them in line or give them more use, but that can come later when the core issues (like lag!) are fixed.

EDIT: clarifications for ignoring performance, forgot some words

Abyssmol

Areloth wrote: »

Hi everyone,

I was looking on the forum for a constructive thread about the issues we are facing in PVP nowadays. Beside a lot of "nerf this" and "nerf that" threads there is not really a lot to find.
So I'd like to ask you to name the main issues you see with in PVP right now.
Lag and CE are not abilities btw, we all know this is the biggest issue.
Please also take PVE into account, changes should not affect PVE directly or too hard.
I will write my opinion, everyone can respond with a logical answer why it is not a good idea, but for all the "L2P"-comments...please save your time and do something else.

1. Tankiness:
Everyone is super tanky. I am playing 5 light and 2 heavy and I have max armor stats. This is ridiculos.
Suggestion: increase cap and lower damage reduction
Example. 50% reduction with 45k resistances
So you really have to stack armor to get the max damage reduction, it is way to easy to hit the cap right now.

2. Healing
Since DoTs have been nerfed, HoTs are very powerful. Instant heals should remain strong, but be expensive.
Suggestion: Reduce HoT by 20%. Reduce the Magicka Restoration of Honor of the dead from 60% to 30%.

3. Overtuned skills
I really don't have a problem fighting templars with their jabs - but this ability is overtuned anyways. Well...it's not the ability, its the passive burning light.
To bring Jabs in line with other class spammables my recommendation is to let burning light only apply to monsters, not to players. Burning light sometimes hits harder than the jab itself.


So what do you think? What are the main issues and how could they get addressed correctly?

I think that this a nerf Templar post... and I bet you are a sorc for the tackiness part. Well if you want to reduce tankinness let us also talk about reducing damage shields by that big nice percentage you are taking about...

Crixus8000

Tank meta is in cp pvp only. That is not possible in no cp, not without having 0 damage. I really hate the idea of being nerfed in no cp because of people running around super tanky in cp.

MashmalloMan

MajBludd wrote: »

I have seen that sorc healing is a bit overtuned. Saw a video with a 19k heal off of clanfear.

Idk if this is completely accurate, but if this can be achieved, that's a bit too much, imo.

OP asks for general pvp suggestions and first comment in the thread is nerf sorc without any context or evidence, just hear say. It works like any other % based tank heal in the game, so a 19k heal is most likely a crit heal on a tank build. You don't get those types of numbers with 20k hp in pvp.

Ragnarock41

Rahar wrote: »

Honestly, I think that CP is one of the main issues in PvP when game performance is taken out of the running. Namely, it scales too high right now, and break free/roll dodge is too expensive without it.

What this results in is a CP environment where damage mitigation and healing is in abundance (due to CP percentage bloat combined with recent damage nerfs) and a non-CP environment that's actual cancer because of all the effects/sets that are being put in to be effective in CP and extreme passive damage mitigation being necessary because roll dodge/block/break free costs too much without CP. CP fights often end in stalemates and no-CP fights often abuse cheap gimmicks like bombard to bait expensive roll dodges.

The only real way to fix this is a redesign of the CP system; however, giving less points for PvP would be a decent short term fix. ~500 is my suggestion. Then, removing the "Reduce cost of X by Y%" points would be the next step, followed by a static cost reduction for break free & friends and close look at how you can make a progression system interesting without turning to flat percentages, which have a habit of getting out of control very quickly.

When that's all said and done and everything works without the scales being tipped badly in one direction or another, just remove no-CP and balance one PvP mode.

Of course, there are certain classes and skills that need some effects pruned or added to them to either bring them in line or give them more use, but that can come later when the core issues (like lag!) are fixed.

EDIT: clarifications for ignoring performance, forgot some words

CP PvP stopped being fun unfortunately due to the amount of free sustain and tankyness given to everyone.

MashmalloMan

MincVinyl wrote: »

-echoing sucks ass solo(high cost if you double pump the ticks), but it is amazing in group play after 5 or 6+ people

@MincVinyl Hold up.. are you saying you can cast it twice on yourself for double the ticks or do you mean 2 people casting it for each other to stack the effects on one another.

Probably a stupid question..

ImSoPro

Rahar wrote: »

Honestly, I think that CP is one of the main issues in PvP when game performance is taken out of the running. Namely, it scales too high right now, and break free/roll dodge is too expensive without it.

What this results in is a CP environment where damage mitigation and healing is in abundance (due to CP percentage bloat combined with recent damage nerfs) and a non-CP environment that's actual cancer because of all the effects/sets that are being put in to be effective in CP and extreme passive damage mitigation being necessary because roll dodge/block/break free costs too much without CP. CP fights often end in stalemates and no-CP fights often abuse cheap gimmicks like bombard to bait expensive roll dodges.

The only real way to fix this is a redesign of the CP system; however, giving less points for PvP would be a decent short term fix. ~500 is my suggestion. Then, removing the "Reduce cost of X by Y%" points would be the next step, followed by a static cost reduction for break free & friends and close look at how you can make a progression system interesting without turning to flat percentages, which have a habit of getting out of control very quickly.

When that's all said and done and everything works without the scales being tipped badly in one direction or another, just remove no-CP and balance one PvP mode.

Of course, there are certain classes and skills that need some effects pruned or added to them to either bring them in line or give them more use, but that can come later when the core issues (like lag!) are fixed.

EDIT: clarifications for ignoring performance, forgot some words

I was with you until you said remove no CP. Some of us like no CP more than CP PvP. No CP is a lot more balanced and skill based. It’s all about sets and rotations and timely blocks and dodge rolls. It’s not about who has the most CP invested. I play Cyro but I’m in BGs about 80% of the time.

Rahar

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Honestly, I think that CP is one of the main issues in PvP when game performance is taken out of the running. Namely, it scales too high right now, and break free/roll dodge is too expensive without it.

What this results in is a CP environment where damage mitigation and healing is in abundance (due to CP percentage bloat combined with recent damage nerfs) and a non-CP environment that's actual cancer because of all the effects/sets that are being put in to be effective in CP and extreme passive damage mitigation being necessary because roll dodge/block/break free costs too much without CP. CP fights often end in stalemates and no-CP fights often abuse cheap gimmicks like bombard to bait expensive roll dodges.

The only real way to fix this is a redesign of the CP system; however, giving less points for PvP would be a decent short term fix. ~500 is my suggestion. Then, removing the "Reduce cost of X by Y%" points would be the next step, followed by a static cost reduction for break free & friends and close look at how you can make a progression system interesting without turning to flat percentages, which have a habit of getting out of control very quickly.

When that's all said and done and everything works without the scales being tipped badly in one direction or another, just remove no-CP and balance one PvP mode.

Of course, there are certain classes and skills that need some effects pruned or added to them to either bring them in line or give them more use, but that can come later when the core issues (like lag!) are fixed.

EDIT: clarifications for ignoring performance, forgot some words

CP PvP stopped being fun unfortunately due to the amount of free sustain and tankyness given to everyone.

ImSoPro wrote: »

I was with you until you said remove no CP. Some of us like no CP more than CP PvP. No CP is a lot more balanced and skill based. It’s all about sets and rotations and timely blocks and dodge rolls. It’s not about who has the most CP invested. I play Cyro but I’m in BGs about 80% of the time.

Scaling down CP percentage bloats to an acceptable level and removing "Reduce X by Y%" points would handle both of these issues by reducing passive mitigation and too-cheap roll dodges/break frees/blocks (the real problems behind "free tankiness") and reduce free percentage buffs to sustain stats. At that point we probably wouldn't need or want no-CP.

Ideally this would also come with a lot of set nerfs, especially towards proc damage sets.

Xvorg

Ok guys, before complining about tankiness, or healing or super duper skills that should be nerfed, we all should focus on the one subject that has been always the main problem with this game:

Server Performance.

Once that is solved we should start making a list of skills/effects that should be buffed. THEN we should start asking for nerfs, because nerfing one skill in isolation just leads to a over use of another skill, and its subsequent nerf.

FOR EXAMPLE:

Wings, do you remeber good ol' wings? I'm not going to say anything regarding the status of wings (most of you know my opinion), but at the time, wings was a direct counter to 41 mts destruction reach, one of the best skills this game has given us, with some burst dmg, some CC and a nice DoT.

Ok, after wings were nerfed (one of the saddest days in this game history), Reach had no counter. You just could sit at a keep's wall spamming reach all day long and never, ever, being punished for doing that. That lead to some sad threads saying "reach is OP", and what did ZoS do to solve the problem? Instead of giving us back wings, a skill that needed certain... skill to be used, but with some tweak (like reflecting attacks from 15 mts away), they just went for the lazy job... which was a huge nerf to reach.

Does anybody use reach now? What about wings?

And that, my dear friends is how you pon farr a game...

Neoauspex

Xvorg wrote: »

because nerfing one skill in isolation just leads to a over use of another skill, and its subsequent nerf.

This. The cycle must be broken.

Rahar

Xvorg wrote: »

Ok guys, before complining about tankiness, or healing or super duper skills that should be nerfed, we all should focus on the one subject that has been always the main problem with this game:

Server Performance.

Once that is solved we should start making a list of skills/effects that should be buffed. THEN we should start asking for nerfs, because nerfing one skill in isolation just leads to a over use of another skill, and its subsequent nerf.

FOR EXAMPLE:

Wings, do you remeber good ol' wings? I'm not going to say anything regarding the status of wings (most of you know my opinion), but at the time, wings was a direct counter to 41 mts destruction reach, one of the best skills this game has given us, with some burst dmg, some CC and a nice DoT.

Ok, after wings were nerfed (one of the saddest days in this game history), Reach had no counter. You just could sit at a keep's wall spamming reach all day long and never, ever, being punished for doing that. That lead to some sad threads saying "reach is OP", and what did ZoS do to solve the problem? Instead of giving us back wings, a skill that needed certain... skill to be used, but with some tweak (like reflecting attacks from 15 mts away), they just went for the lazy job... which was a huge nerf to reach.

Does anybody use reach now? What about wings?

And that, my dear friends is how you pon farr a game...

OP mentioned that server performance is clearly the biggest issue. I don't think anyone will contest you on that.

Your approach is the better approach, though, especially regarding specific skills. Nerfing is a whack-a-mole game. No one has fun. Buffing everything up to Templar levels of synergy would make a better, more cohesive game, and everyone has fun.

kylewwefan

NPC’s in PvP are way far too overpowered. Everywhere else in game, overland heck even normal dungeons; I can very easily dispatch the mobs with no problem. Resource guards are OP AF. They shouldn’t be that strong.

And the time it takes to capture a resource is way too long. Someone can come out, try to stop me. I kill them. They go respawn back in the keep and come right back out to pester me again. Wtf. I just killed you.

I’m not even gonna complain about actually fighting other players causes lag, because you know. But the lag from fighting the resource guards again, is incredible. So bad.


Next is siege. It’s uhm graphically unpleasing and un intuitive. Everything is green circles. Some hurt you. Others don’t. Some may even heal you? I dont know what the heck is going on. It’s just bad. Let’s just work on that for awhile.

MincVinyl

@MashmalloMan so what i mean by double casting the echoing vigor is by casting it, waiting for the next tick, and timing another cast right after the tick
so,

cast.....tick.cast.....tick.cast......
heal.....heal.heal.....heal.heal.....

This gets you more hps, but at the cost of skilled timing and alot of stamina+gcds.
(general problem with echoing is the poor hps, so normally you feel like you cant out heal enemies when in solo situations)

Using this technique can save you in dog pile situations like in bgs, and still let you provide heals to teammates.
Just echoing alone I was getting 400-500k healing on an all damage stamsorc.

Joy_Division

Areloth wrote: »

Hi everyone,

I was looking on the forum for a constructive thread about the issues we are facing in PVP nowadays. Beside a lot of "nerf this" and "nerf that" threads there is not really a lot to find.
So I'd like to ask you to name the main issues you see with in PVP right now.
Lag and CE are not abilities btw, we all know this is the biggest issue.
Please also take PVE into account, changes should not affect PVE directly or too hard.
I will write my opinion, everyone can respond with a logical answer why it is not a good idea, but for all the "L2P"-comments...please save your time and do something else.

1. Tankiness:
Everyone is super tanky. I am playing 5 light and 2 heavy and I have max armor stats. This is ridiculos.
Suggestion: increase cap and lower damage reduction
Example. 50% reduction with 45k resistances
So you really have to stack armor to get the max damage reduction, it is way to easy to hit the cap right now.

2. Healing
Since DoTs have been nerfed, HoTs are very powerful. Instant heals should remain strong, but be expensive.
Suggestion: Reduce HoT by 20%. Reduce the Magicka Restoration of Honor of the dead from 60% to 30%.

3. Overtuned skills
I really don't have a problem fighting templars with their jabs - but this ability is overtuned anyways. Well...it's not the ability, its the passive burning light.
To bring Jabs in line with other class spammables my recommendation is to let burning light only apply to monsters, not to players. Burning light sometimes hits harder than the jab itself.


So what do you think? What are the main issues and how could they get addressed correctly?

I think it's ironic that you stated this:

. Beside a lot of "nerf this" and "nerf that" threads there is not really a lot to find.

And then proceeded to write a "nerf this" and "nerf that" post.

And0ssus

Jabs arent the real Problem.
Problem is that there are to less viable Options Out there to use.
Jabs arent OP, they are strong and have utility. Which spammable still have this and arent completly clunky to use?
Buff everything else not nerf the skills there are actually good. Give everyone some Options outside 1 spammable from weapon/build skilllines and Buff classspammable they are to weak.
If u call for nervs, they will nerv it into the oblivion and u know that and still don't learn from the past.
Don't Go for your killfead. Try to understand what the real Problem is.

Healing is Something Else.
Right now its really strong. But is it to strong or do we have to less counterplay? I know defile was crazy in the past but they have something to do. Maybe Change CP so u can directly reduce the healing when you Attack Somebody and don't increase defile itself with it (Maximum 15% or so).
I honestly don't know whats the best to do Here.

Areloth

Joy_Division wrote: »

Areloth wrote: »

Hi everyone,

I was looking on the forum for a constructive thread about the issues we are facing in PVP nowadays. Beside a lot of "nerf this" and "nerf that" threads there is not really a lot to find.
So I'd like to ask you to name the main issues you see with in PVP right now.
Lag and CE are not abilities btw, we all know this is the biggest issue.
Please also take PVE into account, changes should not affect PVE directly or too hard.
I will write my opinion, everyone can respond with a logical answer why it is not a good idea, but for all the "L2P"-comments...please save your time and do something else.

1. Tankiness:
Everyone is super tanky. I am playing 5 light and 2 heavy and I have max armor stats. This is ridiculos.
Suggestion: increase cap and lower damage reduction
Example. 50% reduction with 45k resistances
So you really have to stack armor to get the max damage reduction, it is way to easy to hit the cap right now.

2. Healing
Since DoTs have been nerfed, HoTs are very powerful. Instant heals should remain strong, but be expensive.
Suggestion: Reduce HoT by 20%. Reduce the Magicka Restoration of Honor of the dead from 60% to 30%.

3. Overtuned skills
I really don't have a problem fighting templars with their jabs - but this ability is overtuned anyways. Well...it's not the ability, its the passive burning light.
To bring Jabs in line with other class spammables my recommendation is to let burning light only apply to monsters, not to players. Burning light sometimes hits harder than the jab itself.


So what do you think? What are the main issues and how could they get addressed correctly?

I think it's ironic that you stated this:

. Beside a lot of "nerf this" and "nerf that" threads there is not really a lot to find.

And then proceeded to write a "nerf this" and "nerf that" post.

I meant I don't want to focus people on 1 skill which they want to nerf, I want people to think about global pvp balance.
That's why my main points are not about specific skills, it's about the main issues in PVP Balance.

ChunkyCat

Amazon is making a new pvp enabled mmo rpg. Game drops next May.

In case anyone was curious.

MusCanus

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Amazon is making a new pvp enabled mmo rpg. Game drops next May.

In case anyone was curious.

So this IS a constructive thread after all.