Noob tank questions

Paramedicus

I made DK pve-tank toon recently, because 10 mins queues are darn too long (!!!) and also wanted to feel more needed. I'm having toon-identity crysis with my healer (i'm really bad healer because i don't do 20-30k DPS [another joke, but not rly maybe?]). Anyway, here are my noob tank questions:

• taunt reset - sometimes i have some odd taunt problems. Yesterday at WS 2 last boss, one of these ladies just kept reseting her aggro and i dont think i was over-tauting since i track it. Is reset aggro mechanic instant or is it phase (i.e. few secs when i cant do anything). And if it is phase: will my spamming of taunt skill lead to over-taunt (even if boss isn't beeing taunted)?
• is Igneous Weapons really that useless (even as flex spot skill)? I know that 'everybody should take care of their major brutality/sorcery' but how often do u find that ppl do that? Are those buffs easly accesible for other classes via skills (i have templar so i must use pots)?
• which DK tank build (can be just links) would you find most flexible (best utility for various group compositions [no static group where u can min/max your build with other members], also bad groups i.e. with bad healer or no healer). ATM i'm going for really tanky, self-sustainable team-supportive max HP built in case no heals support, but my DPS is really low obviously. I m wondering if i should go more for DD (in case of bad DDs in group) i.e should I go more for bigger resource pools, offensive CP or will be lighting staff a necessity (i dont mind swapping some weapons/gear or few skills for certain fights).

valeriiya

I have a DK tank and Sorc Tank. If you're just starting out I think Alcast has a good build and a good explanation of items and sets, https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-tank-build-pve/
In my experience the group you're in depends on how you will tank and what skills and sets you will use. If you're doing dungeons with randoms, go with "selfish" sets to keep yourself alive. If you start doing content with a core group the sets and skills you use will depend on what everyone else is doing. Don't focus too much on doing damage, that's not your role. It does suck getting stuck in a group with no DPS but that's the chance you take with randoms.

*Edit to say: keep your eyes out for DPS using a frost staff, a lot of them don't realize that it will taunt

Sparr0w

Paramedicus wrote: »

I made DK pve-tank toon recently, because 10 mins queues are darn too long (!!!) and also wanted to feel more needed. I'm having toon-identity crysis with my healer (i'm really bad healer because i don't do 20-30k DPS [another joke, but not rly maybe?]). Anyway, here are my noob tank questions:

• taunt reset - sometimes i have some odd taunt problems. Yesterday at WS 2 last boss, one of these ladies just kept reseting her aggro and i dont think i was over-tauting since i track it. Is reset aggro mechanic instant or is it phase (i.e. few secs when i cant do anything). And if it is phase: will my spamming of taunt skill lead to over-taunt (even if boss isn't beeing taunted)?
• is Igneous Weapons really that useless (even as flex spot skill)? I know that 'everybody should take care of their major brutality/sorcery' but how often do u find that ppl do that? Are those buffs easly accesible for other classes via skills (i have templar so i must use pots)?
• which DK tank build (can be just links) would you find most flexible (best utility for various group compositions [no static group where u can min/max your build with other members], also bad groups i.e. with bad healer or no healer). ATM i'm going for really tanky, self-sustainable team-supportive max HP built in case no heals support, but my DPS is really low obviously. I m wondering if i should go more for DD (in case of bad DDs in group) i.e should I go more for bigger resource pools, offensive CP or will be lighting staff a necessity (i dont mind swapping some weapons/gear or few skills for certain fights).

Some dungeon bosses/mobs ignore agro, so you can taunt them as much as you please & they will never even look at you. An example of this is the last boss in Direfrost Keep. Afaik overtaunting only matters if there's 2 people with taunt, if it's just yourself taunting (which it should be) then spam away. Another thing to watch in pugs is that a lot of people will use an Ice Stave, or S&B and taunt without knowing it (Puncture/Heavy attack) so watch for this and advise them.

No, dds should care for their own buffs, either via potions or via a skill (all mag should be using Degeneration which gives this buff, stam usually get this from class skills, although some don't). But if you have a flex slot put what you want there if dps is low try slotting this, if healing is low slot something else etc.

Usually I just run the same build, with 2 flex slots for skills & change up my monster set. Low healing I run earthgore/rkugamz. Low synergy support rkugamz/stonekeeper etc. You should never need to pull any dps in a dungeon, you have 2/3 dds with you & everything has reletively low HP, however running a lightning stave back bar is always advised as this will help with concussion & proc off balance. It will also provide a full crusher enchantment value which will all increase group DPS.

VaranisArano

Taunt reset:

With the exception of a few bosses, the only overtaunt is for another player to be applying a second taunt to the boss. You can taunt as often as you like with different taunts, and it won't make a difference. Do note that all bosses have scripted attacks that target players other than the tank. For example, the spider boss in Spindleclutch 1 will jump on the player who is farthest away, but should come back to you afterward if taunted.

Exceptions:
Red phase centurions, Drodda of Icereach, and the Engine Guardian are untauntable. Sometimes Quintus Versus from Volenfell.

The lamia queen from Arx Corinium has a mechanic via which she sheds taunt by applying a pseudo-taunt to herself. Its best to wait a bit before retaunting her, or she can go into overtaunt.

Major_Lag

Paramedicus wrote: »

but my DPS is really low obviously

Forget about that - as a "real" tank you will be doing a few thousand DPS at most, that's perfectly normal.

My advice, for dealing with really bad PUGs (4 digit group DPS - yikes!), bring an alternate set of gear for a tanky DD build.
Ideally something like a vMA build, but remember to slot a taunt as well.
This will let you do 10-20k DPS while still technically tanking the bosses, which is hugely useful when the rest of the group is doing 5k DPS combined.

valeriiya wrote: »

Sorc Tank

IMO probably the easiest class to tank on. Not the best (that would be DK), but certainly easiest.

Dark Deal provides burst stamina restore and a small amount of over-time stam regen even while blocking, on top of that it's also an OK burst heal.
And Crit Surge provides a good amount of self-healing, which - to some extent - scales up with the amount of enemies being hit by your AoEs.

Asardes

I don't know what gear you have available, but an easy combo is Ebon Armory + Torug's Pact + monster set. Which one of those you use it's up to you. For example: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=52256

It's not your job to do damage, but to CC, taunt and debuff mobs. It's pretty hard to spec for damage and tanking at the same time, but that depends on dungeon really. It's not possible for veteran DLC dungeons, but for normal & most veteran base game ones and even some normal DLCs it's perfectly viable to queue as tank on a DD spec and slot a taunt.

In some dungeons bosses will attack the other group members from time to time regardless if you have taunt so it's not your fault. Others will not react to taunt at all (ex. Planar Inhibitor in WGT). Taunt lasts for 15s so it's not that hard to keep it. But that's not the only thing you should do. Keep Heroic Slash active on the boss and/or bigger adds, and also Elemental Blockade to proc off-balance and the crusher enchatnment (that has to be on a 2H weapon for full effect, for 1H it's halved so it's kinda useless). The smaller mobs you should gather all mobs with Unrelenting Grip, and root them with Choking Talons. Use Green Dragon Blood for burst heal, and Cinder Storm or Echoing Vigor for heals over time - those will also heal the group. Before you use heals, use Fragmented Shield to buff them. You can sustain your magicka by either running a high recovery build, with 1.6-2.0K magicka recovery, but that will eat into your mitigation/block cost, or running Balance on back bar, using it when you don't take damage to fill your magicka from health. You lose about 5K HP for 3K magicka and also gain Major Resolve (5.3K spell & physical resistance) for 30s so it's 2 in 1 skill. Just don't use it when you need to heal, because it will put a 4s healing debuff on you.

Major_Lag

Asardes wrote: »

I don't know what gear you have available, but an easy combo is Ebon Armory + Torug's Pact + monster set.

For dealing with fake healers in PUGs, a good alternate setup is Ebon + Battalion Defender (or Cyrodiil's Crest) + monster. That's some serious "free" self healing.

Leeching Plate or Bahraha's Curse are other viable alternatives for "selfish" tank selfhealing sets.

Asardes wrote: »

You can sustain your magicka by either running a high recovery build, with 1.6-2.0K magicka recovery, but that will eat into your mitigation/block cost

Hmm?
My Sorc real tank has 38k HP (no pets), >30k resists, 1.8k fully buffed mag recovery, and pretty much the maximum possible block cost reduction - blocking is so cheap, it might as well be completely free; the only significant stamina costs are to activate taunt, Heroic Slash and Turn Evil.
Resource management is pretty much a non-issue, even when getting 0 sustain help from a fake healer.

Ironically, the only time I ever need to heavy attack with that setup is in trash fights only, because of major ranged taunt spam (for Swarm Mother proc on ranged adds). And even then, only because I'm too cheap to use potions outside of bossfights.

Asardes

Major_Lag wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I don't know what gear you have available, but an easy combo is Ebon Armory + Torug's Pact + monster set.

For dealing with fake healers in PUGs, a good alternate setup is Ebon + Battalion Defender (or Cyrodiil's Crest) + monster. That's some serious "free" self healing.

Leeching Plate or Bahraha's Curse are other viable alternatives for "selfish" tank selfhealing sets.

Asardes wrote: »

You can sustain your magicka by either running a high recovery build, with 1.6-2.0K magicka recovery, but that will eat into your mitigation/block cost

Hmm?
My Sorc real tank has 38k HP (no pets), >30k resists, 1.8k fully buffed mag recovery, and pretty much the maximum possible block cost reduction - blocking is so cheap, it might as well be completely free; the only significant stamina costs are to activate taunt, Heroic Slash and Turn Evil.
Resource management is pretty much a non-issue, even when getting 0 sustain help from a fake healer.

Ironically, the only time I ever need to heavy attack with that setup is in trash fights only, because of major ranged taunt spam (for Swarm Mother proc on ranged adds). And even then, only because I'm too cheap to use potions outside of bossfights.

First on sorcerer you don't have as many magicka skills as DK and what you have is much cheaper, and second, you have cost reduction passives on top of that. OP was asking specifically about DK tanking. I have tanked on sorcerer as well, and I could have referenced that experience, but it's not entirely relevant here. Not hard content TBH, just the DLC dungeons on veteran, half of them on HM, but I won't bring such a build in a trial due to lack of utility and block sustain for harder fights.

Major_Lag

Asardes wrote: »

First on sorcerer you don't have as many magicka skills as DK

Dubious. My current build uses only 3 stamina abilities, of which 2 have 0 alternatives because they are SnB abilities (Pierce Armor, Heroic Slash).
Turn Evil I could just as well replace with the healing-oriented morph of Encase, at which point I would be using no non-SnB stamina abilities at all.

Asardes wrote: »

OP was asking specifically about DK tanking.

OP specifically stated that this is a noob question.
So I pointed out Sorc tanking as a possible alternative to DK tanking, which is arguably more forgiving for someone who's new to the tank role.

Asardes wrote: »

I have tanked on sorcerer as well (...) but I won't bring such a build in a trial due to lack of utility and block sustain for harder fights.

I concur; normal trials are about the practical limit for Sorc tanking, mainly due to low group utility compared to a DK.
Still, it's perfectly viable for the majority of dungeons, so there's that.

Asardes

Actually right now I can say that Warden is a better tank than DK, which is tied with Nightblade, utility wise, but slightly harder to play - the burst heal you have is not that easy to use, you will have to manage your resources better, be more careful about pulls. Necromancer can be good, depending on situation, but Sorcerer and Templar are bottom of the barrel. Of course I can jump on my Sorcerer, press a button in Alpha Gear, change mundus to Lord and cheerfully go and solo tank nHoF or tank vFV with 3 DDs but that says absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of the class. In fact I do have a tank build on most of my stamina characters and several magicka ones, just for this sole purpose - to get groups easier

starkerealm

Major_Lag wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I have tanked on sorcerer as well (...) but I won't bring such a build in a trial due to lack of utility and block sustain for harder fights.

I concur; normal trials are about the practical limit for Sorc tanking, mainly due to low group utility compared to a DK.
Still, it's perfectly viable for the majority of dungeons, so there's that.

Vet Crag trials are pretty painless with a Sorc off-tank. Bolt Escape in particular creates some unique options on fights like Ozara. It's also viable for vCR and vAS, if you know what you're doing, but I wouldn't call it optimal in either of those cases.

I've never attempted vSS on it, but the toolbox would still be viable.

zvavi

small advises for dk tanking:

Great skill for self and group heal is cinder storm (ash cloud morph). It heals like a beast for a huge duration, if boss stands still, and dds stand on it's ass (like they should) you can heal yourself and them ez. (A bit costy though)

Igneous weapons is a useless skill indeed, but, but, i know some dds that like to get the buff, so if you are with premade on call you can always ask if they want it

Tanking is more about skill then gear. I happened to pug vMoS (again) on my healer (18k hp, light armor resists) and the tank didn't block the heavy attack of the first boss. Needless to say, he died. While i managed to somehow gain the attention of it right away (no taunt, luckily damage dealers hit other 2 bosses) keep healing, and res the tank, which happen to take half a fight. Aint saying gear doesn't matter, just that experience, paying attention to details, managing your resources, etc, matters much more than what gear you have. Tankier gear does when there is no healer, but you can usually live with utility one just fine even without a healer in most fights.

You can block cast. If you are blocking, casting a skill will not stop block (unless cast time skill, like dark deal), beware of bar swap, bar swap does stop block.

Edit: also don't take non dlc vet dungeons as tanking simulation, they are a joke.

Asardes

zvavi wrote: »

small advises for dk tanking:

Great skill for self and group heal is cinder storm (ash cloud morph). It heals like a beast for a huge duration, if boss stands still, and dds stand on it's ass (like they should) you can heal yourself and them ez. (A bit costy though)

Igneous weapons is a useless skill indeed, but, but, i know some dds that like to get the buff, so if you are with premade on call you can always ask if they want it

Tanking is more about skill then gear. I happened to pug vMoS (again) on my healer (18k hp, light armor resists) and the tank didn't block the heavy attack of the first boss. Needless to say, he died. While i managed to somehow gain the attention of it right away (no taunt, luckily damage dealers hit other 2 bosses) keep healing, and res the tank, which happen to take half a fight. Aint saying gear doesn't matter, just that experience, paying attention to details, managing your resources, etc, matters much more than what gear you have. Tankier gear does when there is no healer, but you can usually live with utility one just fine even without a healer in most fights.

You can block cast. If you are blocking, casting a skill will not stop block (unless cast time skill, like dark deal), beware of bar swap, bar swap does stop block.

Edit: also don't take non dlc vet dungeons as tanking simulation, they are a joke.

Mobs generally tend to attack the DDs or the healer for some reason, unless they're taunted. Probably they have some AI that targets them with higher priority, from what I see they also target whoever does damage, with DoTs apparently creating more aggro than just light attacks or spammables. One way I prevent this on my tank is to lay down AoE DoTs like Blockade of Lightning and Cinder Storm before I start the pull so even if I don't manage to taunt everything, I will have high aggro priority. Also Unrelenting Grip has a weak, temporary, taunt effect (lasts 3-4s), in some dungeons you can actually manage aggro for free using that, if you target bigger mobs that can't be moved and you get your magicka back, let's say to pull them close enough to use Ransack/Pierce Armor on them. On DK I actually recommend the former, because otherwise you'll have to slot Temporal Guard or depend on Ring of Preservation to get access to Minor Protection reliably.

As for vMoS in the last few PuG runs there I actually had to change role mid dungeon. Luckily I'm geared for multiple roles on most characters. In one instance I started as DD, but the tank crashed before the 3rd boss (Dagrund) and he didn't come back for more than 10 minutes, so we tried to find another. We waited for almost 20 minutes in group finder but no tank came. Neither could we find one in guilds or a DD for that matter. So I just swapped gear and became the tank. With 25K HP and we 3 manned the rest of the dungeon, of course not the HM though. In another run I had joined as a healer but one of the DDs was so weak that group DPS was ~60K of which I was doing 15-20K so one of the DDs, a Magicka Sorcerer, had probably non-existant DPS; he also died a lot. I actually had to tell him to slot Critical Surge so self heal because I saw his health go down constantly. I didn't suspect the other because he had Huntmaster title so he clearly knew the dungeon. So I swapped to my DD setup, slotted a heal, then did the dungeon, picking up the sorcerer at every fight - he died a bit less than before with surge. Again, we managed to finish the dungeon after a few wipes at Tarcyr.

So dungeons, even DLC ones, are doable even with improvised builds, but veteran trials are are much more demanding and thus limit the builds you can run for various roles. I mean you can run a Sorcerer tank and a DK healer in vMoL but they will have to work much harder to compensate for the lack of tools in their kit. For example the Sorcerer will have to expand more stamina to pull the panthers on the first boss or the adds on the Twins with Silver Leash (3.6K stamina) and the DK will have to spam Efficient Purge (4.8K magicka) more often to clear the reflective light like DoT the boss puts on people, while a Templar would have simply allowed the people to purge themselves most of the times with the Ritual synergy. If you build a character and invest in training, gear, and simply learning how to play it effectively, it's better to focus on a class that can do the role effectively even in the hardest content.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Healers are meant to do 20-30k DPS?! Thats more than most DDs!!

Asardes

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Healers are meant to do 20-30k DPS?! Thats more than most DDs!!

You can do ~20K just refreshing Unstable Wall of Lightning, casting Mystic Orb every 10s, weaving LA/HA off the lightning staff bar with those and if you are a Templar also refreshing Ritual of Retribution - I prefer that morph for the higher heal, since I can sustain it. With RoR you're actually pushing upwards of 25K, and much more in trash fights, since all those skills are AoE. IDK for other builds but my Healer ones have 2.5K+ SD and 40K+ max magicka, basically like a DD with more magicka recovery instead of spell critical.

Paramedicus

well, if u wear dps sets or use dmg CPs (i dont think it is common for healers to have 2,5k spell dmg and 40k magicka pool) and dont buff/debuff (u just skip combat prayer/ele drain/etc?) then 20-25k dps is not that hard. Idk (honestly) maybe it is just more efficient to go DMG set + CP + skills than playing support?

zvavi

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Healers are meant to do 20-30k DPS?! Thats more than most DDs!!

Neh mate depends on how you build it, full healers can get those numbers if they are really good with their weave and they have 3 dots (wall, orb, shard, for example), but i get mostly around 8k-12k damage on my heal, but i am a trial healer specced sooo (also dk so no shards, and i use the healy orb)

But when i run 3 dd runs before the nerf they did to sorcs and sustain and dots, i was consistently pulling 40k in a heavy attack off heal pet sorc build. While healing and eledraining.