so about that update on the Undaunted event being cancelled...

ApostateHobo

Welp we got our update. No info on replacement event until Monday it seems.

KingMagaw

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to give everyone an update, we will not be enabling any additional events this weekend while we concentrate on implementing fixes for the Activity Finder. When we dug into why the issues began yesterday, we uncovered a new problem where certain groups queuing with the Activity Finder were causing significant database load issues. The fixes we’re working on will better distribute the load and impact on the database, and they are currently with QA for testing. We really appreciate everyone’s patience while we troubleshoot these issues, and completely understand how disruptive it's been for you. Once we receive the testing results from QA, we’ll give everyone another update of our plans on Monday.

A new problem?. All i read is another PR post like last year to string players along. Game performance is steadily decreasing with nothing tangible being done.

darthgummibear_ESO

Heatnix90 wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Bekkael wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

the updated group finder was never stress tested, in fact it almost shut the game down on the PC EU server for a week after the DLC launch, this should have sent alarm bells ringing to ZOS to maybe not go ahead with the event as planed, almost everyone here on the forum knew the GF was not up to the stress of an event it barley coped with peak time server loads.
there was absolutely no reason at all this should of happened and the fact it was allowed to speaks volumes.

Bingo.

You gotta wonder what kind of management hell ZOS is in where they can publicly display these bumbling incompetencies over and over and OVER again without a complete team restructuring.

People complain about the programmers (who are undoubtedly interns and fresh college grads), but if the upper management is either unaware or doesn't care enough to change course despite every red flag and alarm bell going off, then it reeks of a systemic problem.

Have you seen the SNAFU that is Fallout 76? ZOS just seem to be in the same groove as their sister studio, Bethesda Game Studio. Apparently, this kind of performance/behavior/incompetence is standard practice.

Ultimately, it's up to each of their customers to decide if games run in such a manner are worth paying for.

Given that FO76 adopted the identical monetization scheme as ESO, I think it's safe to say that Zenimax is calling the shots for both studios.

ZOS and BGS are two different development studios working under the Zenimax Media Inc umbrella.

I'm aware of their status on paper, too.

FierceSam

I feel for ZOS on this one.

Not for the total lack of a contingency plan or the utter inability to communicate, that’s all on them, but for the scale of this issue.

It’s a total beat down of all the work they’ve done backstage on the game over the last year. 12 months ago they said they were going to fix these very same issues and they have failed completely. Not half-arsed failed, but total in-your-face and out in public failed. Whatever they do to resolve this, it’s got to be 100% bulletproof.

So I say, give them some time and a bit of support, cos they need the space to be totally honest with themselves about the scale of what needs to be done. And they need to know that they can be honest(ish) with us about what it’s going to take to fix it.

In terms of communication, they need to be honest too. If they say they will update us in 2 days they need to do that.

Obviously if they try and palm us off with a couple of odd-coloured donkey pets, they’re all finished.

Ashtaris

Honestly, I don’t think there is really anything ZOS can do except cancel the event, and any other events that use the group finder, period. They don’t have time to really make an attempt to fix it until the next update, and by then we already be in the New Life festival. So call it a wash, and lets hope they do something really nice for us during New Life (HA!)

Edit: Well it looks like they may make another attempt after all. Guess we will know on Monday.

rumple9

They just need to stop doing events everyone is sick of them anyway

Dusk_Coven

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're still discussing what the plan is. We'll post in that main thread as soon as we have something nailed down.

Hi,
Any chance if you could give us a few more details? Such as what's definitely off the table, or an estimate of when the next update might be, even if there's no new information by that time.

Also, as previously stated, please look ahead to the end of the year, especially the upcoming dragon event that involves dungeons.

Thanks.

Thank you @ZOS_GinaBruno for the additional information provided in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6462102/#Comment_6462102

Updates that help us with planning our time (e.g., no events over the weekend) can be very helpful, especially as we head into the holiday season.

Contaminate

lordrichter wrote: »

Saltisol wrote: »

Why do people thank them when being fed crumbs ?

It is being polite. I agree that it would be much more entertaining in here if ZOS behaved like the players.

Man I wish the ZOS team cared about the game working as much as the playerbase.

daemonios

Hamfast wrote: »

First off, I think the undaunted event was poorly designed just by it's mechanics... Even if the group finder had worked as intended, the event would not have been satisfactory for many folks, it had to many items that dropped from too few mechanics that were determined by the RNG and required a level of play and groups that many may not have had the access to over a very short period of time.

Second, the group finder issues can't really be tested under a load unless that load can be duplicated... I used to write commercial code, I never allowed code to be released that I did not think would work as required... it was also rare that when that code was put in place with a customer the first time that it worked as we thought it would, most of the time because there was information we did not have or could not simulate... so yes, many times the testers and testing was done by our customers, and we also ran into issues with 3rd party programs that interfered with our code in ways we did not and could not have foreseen...

Mt second point is a way to point out that Rich's post above is absolutely true, every event after that post was made they were 100% sure the tools would support it... all the testing they did showed it was true... but when it went live, it failed... so they fixed it again, tested it again, 100% certified again... until it failed again... I am not saying the certification methods were good or bad, I don't know what they were, just that what ever they were could have certified 100% that the system tools would have worked each and every time.

My third and last point is that the development, support and operation of this game costs money, the systems,, the people and all the rest can't operate without substantial income... some comes from those of us that pay the monthly subscription, but for the past few years it has been showed that the subscription model will not generate the required income, hence many of these games that are "Free to play" generate a great deal of income through selling some in-game currency (Crowns, Gems, Coins or what ever) and that in-game currency will allow for those that have the funds to pay for it to get others to furnish items they want (trading their real life money to get in-game items they don't have the time or inclination to acquire from people who have the time to acquire it or from the company... this second model has shown to be much better at producing income then the older subscription model. The Crown store and the monthly subscription pays for the game and all the things done to support the game...

if you want Zos to do more, buy more crowns so they can afford it, if you want them to test more, then get on the PTS when asked and help them test, and when you test and find issues don't expect someone else to report what you see, report it in as thorough report as you can to the people that can use it (as directed by Zos)

So your first point is that ZOS can't design a decent event, your second point is that they can't test their code, and your third point is GIVE THEM MORE MONEY? That would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Do you even know if they lack the funds to throw proper resources at solving this game's issues? Because I certainly haven't been invited to have a read of ZOS' financial records. I'll give you a hint though: they are heavily invested in a business model - microtransactions - where the entirety of their costs are upfront, and selling additional units (be it pets, mounts, motifs, consumables, loot crates, etc) costs close to zero. So yeah, I very much doubt they lack the cash. What they do lack is the will to let go of some in order to provide a better experience. They're in the business of selling virtual trash, not experiences.

Sandman929

I like the part where they're waiting on "test results from QA"

wavingblue

Sandman929 wrote: »

I like the part where they're waiting on "test results from QA"

That's French for, "If it compiles, it ships"

thegreatme

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Follow the path of Final Fantasy 14. Have a team working on redoing the base code for the game and when it is almost viable take down this "1.0" version and launch the "2.0" "Realm Reborn" version on a completely new coding platform. The game sees longevity and still turns a massive profit.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds as though reworking the game's back end and reinstalling the game with whole new code to streamline stability is already in the works for the start of next year (Update 26 I believe?).

That doesn't happen overnight. Its a long process.

I don't know how many other free-to-play MMO's you've experienced, but frankly ESO has a heck ton more features and stuff going on with its game than I've seen in a lot of others, with a much larger user base than some others I've played that SEEM more stable only because good luck even FINDING other players because so few people play them. That should say something right there.

That said, we should expect hiccups and its own set of problems on launch when the rework happens, and expect they'll need time to iron out the wrinkles, as with everything else, but we can at least hope that it will be a step towards a properly fixed game in time.

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

People complain about the programmers (who are undoubtedly interns and fresh college grads), but if the upper management is either unaware or doesn't care enough to change course despite every red flag and alarm bell going off, then it reeks of a systemic problem.

That unfortunately seems to be a problem of the modern age no matter where you go, from game companies to public retail. The workers might all know what they're doing or trying to do, but they're stunted by the decisions and hand-slapping of upper management and other departments.

I can't say for sure that's what goes on in Zenimax since I don't work there, but considering its been a problem in every single place I've worked, and been a problem in employee reviews every place I've looked into that I've thought of applying to (including places in the same field as Zenimax), I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. It really only takes a handful of the wrong people in the wrong higher positions to botch the successful operation of a company and getting things done, and that model seems to have become the standard in all facets of the corporate work force the last couple decades. I'm sure there's a lot of employees working at Zeni who are just as frustrated as the rest of us, but someone else controls their pay, and they don't call the shots.

Hamfast wrote: »

Second, the group finder issues can't really be tested under a load unless that load can be duplicated... I used to write commercial code, I never allowed code to be released that I did not think would work as required... it was also rare that when that code was put in place with a customer the first time that it worked as we thought it would, most of the time because there was information we did not have or could not simulate... so yes, many times the testers and testing was done by our customers, and we also ran into issues with 3rd party programs that interfered with our code in ways we did not and could not have foreseen...

Mt second point is a way to point out that Rich's post above is absolutely true, every event after that post was made they were 100% sure the tools would support it... all the testing they did showed it was true... but when it went live, it failed... so they fixed it again, tested it again, 100% certified again... until it failed again... I am not saying the certification methods were good or bad, I don't know what they were, just that what ever they were could have certified 100% that the system tools would have worked each and every time.

The testing of some systems is always going to be a Trial by Fire and they just hope when they do that their systems don't burn. I agree that at least someone thought the systems could handle it, though we can only guess who.

We also need to keep in mind the new LFG system is still very new. I just expect at this point anything newly done is going to have wrinkles to iron out, given time.

We've also been told they are reworking the back-end code for a future update and will need to fully reinstall the game with HOPEFULLY slimmer code, and that it will hopefully improve game stability.

The LFG rework isn't the end of their performance plan, we have to remember, its one step in a long list of things they're working on to, in hope and theory, fix the game's performance and server load. Yes we all want everything to work better "Right now", but these fixes don't happen overnight, and they are still a company, they do have to earn money. Which leads to the next point...

Hamfast wrote: »

My third and last point is that the development, support and operation of this game costs money, the systems,, the people and all the rest can't operate without substantial income... some comes from those of us that pay the monthly subscription, but for the past few years it has been showed that the subscription model will not generate the required income, hence many of these games that are "Free to play" generate a great deal of income through selling some in-game currency (Crowns, Gems, Coins or what ever) and that in-game currency will allow for those that have the funds to pay for it to get others to furnish items they want (trading their real life money to get in-game items they don't have the time or inclination to acquire from people who have the time to acquire it or from the company... this second model has shown to be much better at producing income then the older subscription model. The Crown store and the monthly subscription pays for the game and all the things done to support the game...

Much as we all hate it and want to cling to our money and hiss at ZoS, this isn't entirely false. I'm not going to leap in and defend the company saying all of our money is going straight to game improvement and the big-wigs up top are fully respecting our investment and allocating their funds into all the proper places, because its probably not, and I don't know any big company that truly does this with any certainty.

However, when the money starts slipping away, yes it might send them into a "We have to earn our clients back" panic, but it also means their pool of money they put towards the systems and employees diminishes. Considering the work that goes into game design, and cost, and how big ESO is as an MMO, I highly doubt their employees are compensated fairly per amount of work they put into it. They don't have enough income? They cut back number of employees because they're "exceeding budget". They might cut the ones that are least efficient (in theory at least, but office politics and favoritism are a factor in all companies), but then the work load that was put on them gets dumped on the "efficient" ones who excel at their job, making them overworked, underpaid, exhausted, stretched thin between "their job" and "someone else's job", and more prone to make mistakes, not catch bad code, etc. or just flat out become burnt out and apathetic to whether it actually works or not because aiming for perfection just isn't worth it. People aren't robots but a lot of industries like to treat them as if they are, and that's a major factor in things like this as well.

I'm sure someone is going to leap in and make fun of me, but that's not an assessment of ZoS, that's just what I've noticed in every job I've ever been in (pretty huge companies that bring in millions in just one location of many in a chain) and repeated in reviews of jobs I've wanted to apply for. This is unfortunately the standard model of corporate business in a lot of cases now, game companies are no different, and ZoS isn't an outlier in making decisions that just don't work.

Unfortunately quality and company income are both tied together, whether we like it or not. But no one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing you to pay for a product you don't want either, so its up to each person to decide if its worth it or not to them.

Sandman929

I wonder what the new plans mean for the land where nothing happens in less than a month...consoles.

LucyferLightbringer

Give them more money? Reward incompetence? Heck no.

Wrecking_Gorilla

More worried about fourth quarter performance improvement. Last time, it failed and things aren’t looking so good now.

Nanfoodle

Never got getting upset when an online game is not working as intended. MMOs have been this way from the start. I went back to EQ1 many times. I have seen many bugs that go back 20 years +. Every game has its own challenges and you have to decide what bugs you can live with and what game style fits you. When you can do that. You can live with the bugs and just enjoy the game. I'm loving ESO.

AboKor

Yeah we really could use an update on the situation

Oh c'mon don't expect that they really will sit and think on sutuation on weekend.
Everything will be the same:

protofeckless

I don't even know where to start with this:

"When we dug into why the issues began yesterday, we uncovered a new problem where certain groups queuing with the Activity Finder were causing significant database load issues."

Ok yes I do. You see, the problem is "certain groups". Players are the problem. No need to be accountable to a delivering a working product, when you always blame the customer. Every time it's the same message from ZOS.

It would be refreshing if they'd just own up and communicate real, you know, information.

Also, 5.5 years from launch you still have to rezone to receive mail or a store purchase. And ZOS still tries to pass off the word "database." How embarrassing.

Grabber

Zos can’t even get the base game to run properly don’t plan on any future events, just keeping buying from the crown store.

Donari

protofeckless wrote: »

I don't even know where to start with this:

"When we dug into why the issues began yesterday, we uncovered a new problem where certain groups queuing with the Activity Finder were causing significant database load issues."

Ok yes I do. You see, the problem is "certain groups". Players are the problem. No need to be accountable to a delivering a working product, when you always blame the customer. Every time it's the same message from ZOS.

It would be refreshing if they'd just own up and communicate real, you know, information.

Also, 5.5 years from launch you still have to rezone to receive mail or a store purchase. And ZOS still tries to pass off the word "database." How embarrassing.

I think you misread that. It's not assigning blame to the players. It's saying that ZoS' code can't handle particular group compositions for whatever reason. I'm sure they won't say exactly what the bad group comp is because trolls and griefers will form up such groups on purpose, they *have* to be vague on the details. But the fault still lies in the code and they have to fix said code before LFG will work.

DrOuttaSight

Verbal_Earthworm wrote: »

Slay Sleigh

I was wondering just how long it would take for someone to pick up that typo,
I should have made it easier and used the word which

DrOuttaSight

Hamfast wrote: »

Second, the group finder issues can't really be tested under a load unless that load can be duplicated...

The solution is easy, swap the PTS for the main game server, (test fix applied), and switch back to the main game server when the problem is fixed correctly.

---

I think a Game Event needs more, pair or group gathering, and less of a fetch, and carry story mode.

@ZOS.
When an Event is running, would it not be wise to auto expand the game server access,

to double prevent "database load issues"?,

especially when you run a free week or weekend

so that new players can get a taste of what the ESO experience can provide... for their enjoyment.

Also

When the main Game server is off-line for hours on end for patch maintenance,

why not let us all use the PTS to continue playing the game ?

(of-course without making everything free to use)

Surely it can't be that hard to set up?

TelvanniWizard

So, how will we get the opal styles?

KingMagaw

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

So, how will we get the opal styles?

Coming to a Crown Store near you

Ascarl

Maybe a possible could include longer but less intense events. So basically perma events with the theme changing every few weeks. To avoid inflation limit the amount of drops to one per day.

This would smooth the curve of participating players and therefore limit the amount of people doing the same thing at once and stress the servers.

Just a thought.

KingMagaw

Ascarl wrote: »

Maybe a possible could include longer but less intense events. So basically perma events with the theme changing every few weeks. To avoid inflation limit the amount of drops to one per day.

This would smooth the curve of participating players and therefore limit the amount of people doing the same thing at once and stress the servers.

Just a thought.

Wont happen mate. ZOS have put much effort into recently developing the impressio and the revune stream he brings in. Limited events are designed with a mind to push the players into spending money. Lots to do, many styles to get in a short space of time.

Look at Undaunted Event. 4 days and like 28 style pages to get LOL It is very blatant ESO has become a cash grab now.

DrOuttaSight

KingMagaw wrote: »

Wont happen mate. ZOS have put much effort into recently developing the impressio and the revune stream he brings in. Limited events are designed with a mind to push the players into spending money. Lots to do, many styles to get in a short space of time.

Look at Undaunted Event. 4 days and like 28 style pages to get LOL It is very blatant ESO has become a cash grab now.

Hmmmm
They can 'milk' the cash cows with the minimum of investment because investment would be a waste of money.

Ysbriel

They did thank us for our on going patience.

Junkriid

Nice to see how much effort they put in releasing news where they say how they're solving this and that and the plan for every update, "we improve this", "we fix that" to fool us and make us believe they're acutally doing it, but then, when it's time to test those fixes, things remain the same as before, bugged as before and the 6th year is coming.. Good freaking job. And I still keep buying dlcs like a normal idiot I am.. clap clap to me too.

daedalusAI

• ESO can't handle a small event which relies on the instance finder and the event has to be postponed
• Performance of the instance finder has been a constant issue for years

With that in mind the upcoming "improvements" to the game as laid out in the roadmap look rather dire as the quality will be subpar as usual, if it even works.