OG_Kaveman wrote: »IMO, the game would be a lot easier to balance, and provide for the flexibility you want if Stamina would be just used for feats (Sprint, Block, Bash, Sneak, etc) and Magicka was used for all skills.
if this happened, you would literally only have one build for each class for dps that would be "viable", instead of the 2 we have now. that is bad. not sure how you dont see this.The downside is that min/max builds would look more the same than they already are (if that is possible). Build variety would likely increase in PvP though given that you could combine pretty much anything.
oh, you do see this, but you would just have everyone running the same builds in pvp, too, unless there is some fundamental game changes because what you are asking for. the game would just be completely different then it is now, might as well not even be called elder scrolls online at that point.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »Hybrids being competitive in ESO means the death of any diversity or semblance of balance left in the game. I don't know what good stuff you're smoking, but I do not care.
Yet again you are so very wrong. Do you have anything to support such a claim?
At least think about this: if hybrids were intentionally uncompetitive, why did they allow to go hybrid. Just to trap unsuspecting newbies? This is laughable.
What you say is that going meta (with only a very slight differences) is the original intent. In this case there is no reason why to bother with any leveling and point distribution. You just should pick one of the pre-ready metas at the beginning, and then go killing stuff.
I know you are used to your build and you are OK woth that but just face it the only thing you did was to adapt to the unnatural conditions this combat system create. Yeah one of my alts, for example, is an altmer petsorc in Necro set. It works. But it is uniform and boring.
Well in that case they failed badly. Because the non optimal builds are not viable. Once you deviate from the meta, the dps drop is significant. The passives you must have do a big difference. And this is my point.Ragnarock41 wrote: »The intent is for non-optimal things to be viable.
As you mention a DK this is one shining example of a wrong skillset since IIRC (I do not play my DK alt much) the meta uses more weapon specific skills than the class skills.
If someone struggles with "common overland mobs", then the issue isn't the build.
The single player games didn't really offer better balance and/or more build diversity, they were just lacking hard content and competition, so there was simply no reason to "optimize" builds. And the same applies to the majority of this game too. Overland, quests, story, normal grp content, even pvp to some extent, can be done with literally any build just fine, so there is really not that much difference.
Well I seriously doubt you would be able to do well with, say, a Bosmer "battlemage" sorc who would mix magic, 2h and a bow in a vet dung. I dare to say you would have hard times to break something like 5K dps depending on your equip.
Break the dependency between maximum stamina / magicka and damage output.
It makes no sense at all (well I am aware this is a high fantasy but still) and it also kills a build diversity. You cannot have a "viable" endgame damage build without fully commited magicka or stamina.
The next good step would be to update racial passives so there are no magicka or stamina races. An Altmer swordsman, what a joke. Or an Orc mage. At least in top tier group play.
Simply put, let players merilly mix swords and sorcery even in endgame group play. This game IS about group play, right?
At the very least, there should be more transparency as to exactly how much damage stat pools are adding, and exactly how much weapon/spell damage adds.
"Your current heavy attack/light attack/ specific skill damage is X, of which Y comes from stats, Z comes from weapon/spell damage, and W comes from Champion Points. This damage is in turn affected by A on average mobs and B on boss type mobs due to your penetration value P."
But yeah, kind of agree that they should do away with stat based damage. The status quo is not acceptable, and just another way that the player base at large is stymied when trying to figure out optimal ways to do the harder content.
LapisLazuli99 wrote: »I usually play stam over mag so I'm not an expert but wouldnt this obliterate most Mag builds compared to Stam?
LapisLazuli99 wrote: »I usually play stam over mag so I'm not an expert but wouldnt this obliterate most Mag builds compared to Stam?
Yup, yea it would some. The most heavily effected would be mag sorc, followed by MagWarden and Magblades.
LapisLazuli99 wrote: »I usually play stam over mag so I'm not an expert but wouldnt this obliterate most Mag builds compared to Stam?
Yup, yea it would some. The most heavily effected would be mag sorc, followed by MagWarden and Magblades.
A) Yes of course
Since such a change would mean a major overhaul of the combat system (comparable something like between the soft-caps removal and the weapon/spelldamage normalization) it alone would mean a major rebalancing (even minor things, like jewelry enchants).
However, untieing damage from resource pool have its merits, especially on the long run, not to mention offers the possibility for the players to really make some choice/diversion on their stats. (especially in PVE, everyone go with may primary stat, and hell with everything else).
However, regarding the resource types, i would have an additional or completely different approach:
Removing stamina morphs entirely.
No, please, put down the pitchforks!
Now, lets go back a few years, when the game was out and called Elder Robes/staffs Online and with reason.
Every single skill was magicka based, every ultimate scaled from magicka, destro and resto staff skilline scaled from magicka, every other skillline scaled from stamina.
Bash, block, sprint, rolldodge, break free - the active defensive abilities- used and scaled from stamina.
The skills themselves scaled either weapon or spelldamage, and respectively weapon or spellcrit, weapon skills scaled from weapon damage and weapon crit (altough we were underinformed as hell, and most of this was educated guesswork and i vaguely remember, that there were some odd ones, using weapon damage and spellcrit - this is the reason, why we still find odd sets with stats that makes no sense at all).
Of course, to add complexity, the type of the damage (fire, poison, etc) also took play, and only physical damage used physical penetration, everything else used spell pen (including poison damage).
Good ole days!
Yes, it was confusing as hell. We did not known jack ***.
Practically, from day1, every stamina user - and in this case, everyone, who wanted to use anything else than staves as a DPS cried for stamina morphs.
Again, IMHO, it was the wrong way. Instead of aligning to the weapon skill lines, devs should have aligned to the skills, not to mention, that since all of the active defensive abilities - a trademark of the game - were and still stamina based, this change would have divided defensive and offensive stats clearly:
You want to be a rolldodging rogue? OK, but no more high damage for you/many offensive skill resource for you.
Permablocking caster? OK, but 3 skills and you are out.
The difference between the playstyles would have been remained either way: melee or ranged? Physical damage or elemental damage?
Staffs or swords?
A little bit more build diversity, a little bit more interesting PVP, maybe an easier way to balance skills (ok, we are just getting out of the "this morph now uses stamina, and thats it" type skills, but still).
Of course, since till day 1, the devs (the previous devs at least) hated DW caster and other oddities with a passion, maybe this is a no-go since start.
For sure, this would have been a hell of work. I do not think they have the resources to do this kind of thing - too late to venture to the road not taken.
(However, joining the penetration debuffs in the latest patch.... )
Oh, and im a stamina sorcerer since day 1
So really put down the pitchfork.
Siohwenoeht wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »IMO, the game would be a lot easier to balance, and provide for the flexibility you want if Stamina would be just used for feats (Sprint, Block, Bash, Sneak, etc) and Magicka was used for all skills.
if this happened, you would literally only have one build for each class for dps that would be "viable", instead of the 2 we have now. that is bad. not sure how you dont see this.The downside is that min/max builds would look more the same than they already are (if that is possible). Build variety would likely increase in PvP though given that you could combine pretty much anything.
oh, you do see this, but you would just have everyone running the same builds in pvp, too, unless there is some fundamental game changes because what you are asking for. the game would just be completely different then it is now, might as well not even be called elder scrolls online at that point.
Ya... That "Stam for block dodge sprint and mag for skills" was how the game was originally designed... And how it became known as "elder staves online" because no one used physical weapons, and also was changed very very quickly.
LapisLazuli99 wrote: »I usually play stam over mag so I'm not an expert but wouldnt this obliterate most Mag builds compared to Stam?
Yup, yea it would some. The most heavily effected would be mag sorc, followed by MagWarden and Magblades.
A) Yes of course
Since such a change would mean a major overhaul of the combat system (comparable something like between the soft-caps removal and the weapon/spelldamage normalization) it alone would mean a major rebalancing (even minor things, like jewelry enchants).
However, untieing damage from resource pool have its merits, especially on the long run, not to mention offers the possibility for the players to really make some choice/diversion on their stats. (especially in PVE, everyone go with may primary stat, and hell with everything else).
However, regarding the resource types, i would have an additional or completely different approach:
Removing stamina morphs entirely.
No, please, put down the pitchforks!
Now, lets go back a few years, when the game was out and called Elder Robes/staffs Online and with reason.
Every single skill was magicka based, every ultimate scaled from magicka, destro and resto staff skilline scaled from magicka, every other skillline scaled from stamina.
Bash, block, sprint, rolldodge, break free - the active defensive abilities- used and scaled from stamina.
The skills themselves scaled either weapon or spelldamage, and respectively weapon or spellcrit, weapon skills scaled from weapon damage and weapon crit (altough we were underinformed as hell, and most of this was educated guesswork and i vaguely remember, that there were some odd ones, using weapon damage and spellcrit - this is the reason, why we still find odd sets with stats that makes no sense at all).
Of course, to add complexity, the type of the damage (fire, poison, etc) also took play, and only physical damage used physical penetration, everything else used spell pen (including poison damage).
Good ole days!
Yes, it was confusing as hell. We did not known jack ***.
Practically, from day1, every stamina user - and in this case, everyone, who wanted to use anything else than staves as a DPS cried for stamina morphs.
Again, IMHO, it was the wrong way. Instead of aligning to the weapon skill lines, devs should have aligned to the skills, not to mention, that since all of the active defensive abilities - a trademark of the game - were and still stamina based, this change would have divided defensive and offensive stats clearly:
You want to be a rolldodging rogue? OK, but no more high damage for you/many offensive skill resource for you.
Permablocking caster? OK, but 3 skills and you are out.
The difference between the playstyles would have been remained either way: melee or ranged? Physical damage or elemental damage?
Staffs or swords?
A little bit more build diversity, a little bit more interesting PVP, maybe an easier way to balance skills (ok, we are just getting out of the "this morph now uses stamina, and thats it" type skills, but still).
Of course, since till day 1, the devs (the previous devs at least) hated DW caster and other oddities with a passion, maybe this is a no-go since start.
For sure, this would have been a hell of work. I do not think they have the resources to do this kind of thing - too late to venture to the road not taken.
(However, joining the penetration debuffs in the latest patch.... )
Oh, and im a stamina sorcerer since day 1
So really put down the pitchfork.
Which simply redirects it back to crit chance and Spell/Weapon damage, effectively changing nothing.Dagoth_Rac wrote: »The game differentiates between magicka builds and stamina builds at what must be a dozen different levels. All the endgame builds will continue to specialize even with your change.
And my point is that this is wrong. Stamina should only help you to fight longer, as the magicka should help you to cast more spells. Both of the abilities are nothing (or SHOULD be nothing) than the "fuel" for the skills.
That same boxer doesn't invest in the ability to make a perfect souffle, either. Points will be placed where there is benefit. Right now, that is never the other stat pool.
The boxer with high stamina cannot strike stronger in real life.
Yeah this is not a real life. Then the swords should became ranged weapons.
LapisLazuli99 wrote: »I usually play stam over mag so I'm not an expert but wouldnt this obliterate most Mag builds compared to Stam?
Yup, yea it would some. The most heavily effected would be mag sorc, followed by MagWarden and Magblades.
A) Yes of course
Since such a change would mean a major overhaul of the combat system (comparable something like between the soft-caps removal and the weapon/spelldamage normalization) it alone would mean a major rebalancing (even minor things, like jewelry enchants).
However, untieing damage from resource pool have its merits, especially on the long run, not to mention offers the possibility for the players to really make some choice/diversion on their stats. (especially in PVE, everyone go with may primary stat, and hell with everything else).
However, regarding the resource types, i would have an additional or completely different approach:
Removing stamina morphs entirely.
No, please, put down the pitchforks!
Now, lets go back a few years, when the game was out and called Elder Robes/staffs Online and with reason.
Every single skill was magicka based, every ultimate scaled from magicka, destro and resto staff skilline scaled from magicka, every other skillline scaled from stamina.
Bash, block, sprint, rolldodge, break free - the active defensive abilities- used and scaled from stamina.
The skills themselves scaled either weapon or spelldamage, and respectively weapon or spellcrit, weapon skills scaled from weapon damage and weapon crit (altough we were underinformed as hell, and most of this was educated guesswork and i vaguely remember, that there were some odd ones, using weapon damage and spellcrit - this is the reason, why we still find odd sets with stats that makes no sense at all).
Of course, to add complexity, the type of the damage (fire, poison, etc) also took play, and only physical damage used physical penetration, everything else used spell pen (including poison damage).
Good ole days!
Yes, it was confusing as hell. We did not known jack ***.
Practically, from day1, every stamina user - and in this case, everyone, who wanted to use anything else than staves as a DPS cried for stamina morphs.
Again, IMHO, it was the wrong way. Instead of aligning to the weapon skill lines, devs should have aligned to the skills, not to mention, that since all of the active defensive abilities - a trademark of the game - were and still stamina based, this change would have divided defensive and offensive stats clearly:
You want to be a rolldodging rogue? OK, but no more high damage for you/many offensive skill resource for you.
Permablocking caster? OK, but 3 skills and you are out.
The difference between the playstyles would have been remained either way: melee or ranged? Physical damage or elemental damage?
Staffs or swords?
A little bit more build diversity, a little bit more interesting PVP, maybe an easier way to balance skills (ok, we are just getting out of the "this morph now uses stamina, and thats it" type skills, but still).
Of course, since till day 1, the devs (the previous devs at least) hated DW caster and other oddities with a passion, maybe this is a no-go since start.
For sure, this would have been a hell of work. I do not think they have the resources to do this kind of thing - too late to venture to the road not taken.
(However, joining the penetration debuffs in the latest patch.... )
Oh, and im a stamina sorcerer since day 1
So really put down the pitchfork.
That’s interesting and I didn’t know the game evolved like that.
I don’t think the devs will do it, the cost/benefit will be too low. Balance is ever changing but imagine starting from scratch again, you’d feel like you’re constantly going in circles.
LapisLazuli99 wrote: »I usually play stam over mag so I'm not an expert but wouldnt this obliterate most Mag builds compared to Stam?
Yup, yea it would some. The most heavily effected would be mag sorc, followed by MagWarden and Magblades.
A) Yes of course
Since such a change would mean a major overhaul of the combat system (comparable something like between the soft-caps removal and the weapon/spelldamage normalization) it alone would mean a major rebalancing (even minor things, like jewelry enchants).
However, untieing damage from resource pool have its merits, especially on the long run, not to mention offers the possibility for the players to really make some choice/diversion on their stats. (especially in PVE, everyone go with may primary stat, and hell with everything else).
However, regarding the resource types, i would have an additional or completely different approach:
Removing stamina morphs entirely.
No, please, put down the pitchforks!
Now, lets go back a few years, when the game was out and called Elder Robes/staffs Online and with reason.
Every single skill was magicka based, every ultimate scaled from magicka, destro and resto staff skilline scaled from magicka, every other skillline scaled from stamina.
Bash, block, sprint, rolldodge, break free - the active defensive abilities- used and scaled from stamina.
The skills themselves scaled either weapon or spelldamage, and respectively weapon or spellcrit, weapon skills scaled from weapon damage and weapon crit (altough we were underinformed as hell, and most of this was educated guesswork and i vaguely remember, that there were some odd ones, using weapon damage and spellcrit - this is the reason, why we still find odd sets with stats that makes no sense at all).
Of course, to add complexity, the type of the damage (fire, poison, etc) also took play, and only physical damage used physical penetration, everything else used spell pen (including poison damage).
Good ole days!
Yes, it was confusing as hell. We did not known jack ***.
Practically, from day1, every stamina user - and in this case, everyone, who wanted to use anything else than staves as a DPS cried for stamina morphs.
Again, IMHO, it was the wrong way. Instead of aligning to the weapon skill lines, devs should have aligned to the skills, not to mention, that since all of the active defensive abilities - a trademark of the game - were and still stamina based, this change would have divided defensive and offensive stats clearly:
You want to be a rolldodging rogue? OK, but no more high damage for you/many offensive skill resource for you.
Permablocking caster? OK, but 3 skills and you are out.
The difference between the playstyles would have been remained either way: melee or ranged? Physical damage or elemental damage?
Staffs or swords?
A little bit more build diversity, a little bit more interesting PVP, maybe an easier way to balance skills (ok, we are just getting out of the "this morph now uses stamina, and thats it" type skills, but still).
Of course, since till day 1, the devs (the previous devs at least) hated DW caster and other oddities with a passion, maybe this is a no-go since start.
For sure, this would have been a hell of work. I do not think they have the resources to do this kind of thing - too late to venture to the road not taken.
(However, joining the penetration debuffs in the latest patch.... )
Oh, and im a stamina sorcerer since day 1
So really put down the pitchfork.
Well consider the following:
- Dark Elf and Khajiit passives
- New Moon Acolyte (and a lot of other new craftable sets that give aligned Magicka and Stamina bonuses)
- Lover Mundus
- the new generic "Armor" Set Bonus
I also agree that the correct direction was to align damage to Magicka and defense to Stamina. More and more the developers are making things universal Stamina vs Magicka, so we may get something like what we are suggesting eventually.
*My first class was a Stamina Nightblade (although I play a little bit of everything now) for full disclosure.
Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »A fundamental change of this magnitude (it would be huge) should not even be considered unless you are 99% sure its going to wildly help with performance. I can't imagine it would. Also, someone that sacrifices one resource at the expense of another, (i.e. someone that stacks all into magic or stam), should have a significant advantage in that area.