Suggestion: remove dmg dependency on size of stam / mag pool

Vyvrhel

Break the dependency between maximum stamina / magicka and damage output.

It makes no sense at all (well I am aware this is a high fantasy but still) and it also kills a build diversity. You cannot have a "viable" endgame damage build without fully commited magicka or stamina.

The next good step would be to update racial passives so there are no magicka or stamina races. An Altmer swordsman, what a joke. Or an Orc mage. At least in top tier group play.

Simply put, let players merilly mix swords and sorcery even in endgame group play. This game IS about group play, right?

Dagoth_Rac

What about spell critical chance versus weapon critical chance? Spell critical damage versus weapon critical damage? Spell penetration versus weapon penetration? Magicka recovery versus stamina recovery? Elemental/magic damage versus poison/disease/physical damage? CP stars that benefit individual stats? Armor passives that benefit one or the other? If you do not remove all of them or make them affect both magicka and stamina skills equally, you will still not be able to create a meta endgame build that does not specialize in magicka or stamina.

The game differentiates between magicka builds and stamina builds at what must be a dozen different levels. All the endgame builds will continue to specialize even with your change.

5cript

Sounds cool, but would break a lot of sets, basically all builds and then you'd have to do what Dagoth_Rac said.
It would also simplify the system drastically, which I think is not a good thing.

EDIT: Actually It would break the entire game more or less.

Major_Lag

Hybrids aren't a thing in ESO endgame DPS, because of how the game works.

Besides, OP, what do you propose to do with abilities that scale exclusively with max magicka/stamina, such as the Sorc pets? They don't scale off of spell/weapon damage at all.

Vyvrhel

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The game differentiates between magicka builds and stamina builds at what must be a dozen different levels. All the endgame builds will continue to specialize even with your change.

And my point is that this is wrong. Stamina should only help you to fight longer, as the magicka should help you to cast more spells. Both of the abilities are nothing (or SHOULD be nothing) than the "fuel" for the skills.

The boxer with high stamina cannot strike stronger in real life.
Yeah this is not a real life. Then the swords should became ranged weapons.

Vyvrhel

Major_Lag wrote: »

Besides, OP, what do you propose to do with abilities that scale exclusively with max magicka/stamina, such as the Sorc pets? They don't scale off of spell/weapon damage at all.

Scale them from a skill level - maybe. If you are better at using a skill, you should do a bigger damage. As I noted before I see the stamina and magicka pools like energy reservoirs, while the effect should depend on something else. Well maybe you should be able to "burn" more magicka or stamina into a skill to do bigger damage or even enforce crits.
But my main point is that the current system is inherently limiting as it forces you into fully magicka or stamina build. I think the spellswords or battlemages from the original ES games are very much missed.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Then everyone would just stack damage and crit

mocap

RIP my petsorc 70k magika pool build )

MartiniDaniels

Devs need to unify penetration and crit chance at least. After that hybrids will have some sort of viability... well, previous patch I had great times with onslaught double penetration (in PVP). Tried playing pelinal hybrid this patch... just a wasted bar space and 5th set bonus...

Deathlord92

No thank you

Ragnarock41

Hybrids aren't supposed to be best. You have to accept that. Having options come at a cost. If you're sad about stamina builds not having proper class skills or magicka builds not having weapon diversity, then the solution to those is obvious but not happening unfortunately.

5cript

try:
dark elf + shacklebreaker + new moon acolyte.

You will still have to decide for an armor type and have regen for both, which is suboptimal.
And Mundus cannot by hybrid.

MartiniDaniels

5cript wrote: »

try:
dark elf + shacklebreaker + new moon acolyte.

You will still have to split spell damage and regen apart in two, which is suboptimal.
And Mundus cannot by hybrid.

I tried such with power lash on stamDK. Bewitched skulls, NMA, Shacklebreaker... tooltip is still much worse then on min-maxed builds not to mention lack of penetration... I just swapped whip for cauterize and put all points in stamina and that cauterize heals on cast almost the same as power lash on proc.
So far pelinal&molten whip+onslaught was the only powerful enough combo, but onslaught nerfed, all ardent flame skill line nerfed... wasted. The only more or less viable setup I see now is running hybrid whip to apply off-balance in no-CP and then heavy attack with molten armaments... great when it works, but just using cauterize instead is simply more reliable and efficient.

Vyvrhel

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Hybrids aren't supposed to be best. You have to accept that.

No, absolutely not, and I, of course, do not have to accept anything. If you look at the combat changes trend, they obviously want to smooth the differences, which they call balancing for some strange reason. Also the system as it is offers the possibility to go the mixed way - if this was not the intent, you would pick up either stamina or magicka at the very beginning. And of course the ES tradition was always to support mixed classes. I really do not see any reason why not.
The damage scaling with max stamina or magicka and tne preference of pure stamina or magicka builds seems to me as an unwanted sideeffect.
I understand that a specialist should have something to excell at, but OTOH the mix should have his own advantages. As it is now, the specialists is the must and the mix is totally unusable.

Races are the same tune. IDK what was your previous experience with ES franchise, but I have been playing from Arena. And characters like Bosmer battlemage with a bow or Altmer spellsword were perfectly working.
They are NOT working now and I firmly believe this is a problem.

And finally, the lack of build freedom severely lessens the gaming experience. Many players here at the forums express a frustration they experience when their builds are not able to handle common overland mobs. And of course if you build somethng which is not more or less uniformly following the meta builds you WILL have problems even overland, not speaking about group play (and this is a MMO, remember). So the intuitive approach to character developlment is doomed to failure. You make your spellsword, you fail to make any solid damage, survival aside, you start looking for answer and then learn that the underlying mechanism of the game in fact punishes mixed builds in several ways.

Well I call this a bad failure. This is, yet again, a MMO, where one of these Ms stands for Massive. This means that everyt player should be able to build a workable character intuitively. You should be able to make something soldi without knowing about Alcast builds and without studying measurements and formulae of people who do in depth testing. The basic rules should be obvious - and they are not, but it looks like that.

I am a MMO veteran so the first thing I did was to look for a meta, and ofc I did the right thing - as long as the criterion is the damage output. But this is a sick approach and it shows that the original wide eyed gaming, exploring and dreaming is over.

Queen Ayrenn is an idiot to pick up a sword. Her passives simply do not allow that.

Ragnarock41

Vyvrhel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Hybrids aren't supposed to be best. You have to accept that.

No, absolutely not, and I, of course, do not have to accept anything. If you look at the combat changes trend, they obviously want to smooth the differences, which they call balancing for some strange reason. Also the system as it is offers the possibility to go the mixed way - if this was not the intent, you would pick up either stamina or magicka at the very beginning. And of course the ES tradition was always to support mixed classes. I really do not see any reason why not.
The damage scaling with max stamina or magicka and tne preference of pure stamina or magicka builds seems to me as an unwanted sideeffect.
I understand that a specialist should have something to excell at, but OTOH the mix should have his own advantages. As it is now, the specialists is the must and the mix is totally unusable.

Races are the same tune. IDK what was your previous experience with ES franchise, but I have been playing from Arena. And characters like Bosmer battlemage with a bow or Altmer spellsword were perfectly working.
They are NOT working now and I firmly believe this is a problem.

And finally, the lack of build freedom severely lessens the gaming experience. Many players here at the forums express a frustration they experience when their builds are not able to handle common overland mobs. And of course if you build somethng which is not more or less uniformly following the meta builds you WILL have problems even overland, not speaking about group play (and this is a MMO, remember). So the intuitive approach to character developlment is doomed to failure. You make your spellsword, you fail to make any solid damage, survival aside, you start looking for answer and then learn that the underlying mechanism of the game in fact punishes mixed builds in several ways.

Well I call this a bad failure. This is, yet again, a MMO, where one of these Ms stands for Massive. This means that everyt player should be able to build a workable character intuitively. You should be able to make something soldi without knowing about Alcast builds and without studying measurements and formulae of people who do in depth testing. The basic rules should be obvious - and they are not, but it looks like that.

I am a MMO veteran so the first thing I did was to look for a meta, and ofc I did the right thing - as long as the criterion is the damage output. But this is a sick approach and it shows that the original wide eyed gaming, exploring and dreaming is over.

Queen Ayrenn is an idiot to pick up a sword. Her passives simply do not allow that.

Hybrids being competitive in ESO means the death of any diversity or semblance of balance left in the game. I don't know what good stuff you're smoking, but I do not care.

Vyvrhel

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Hybrids being competitive in ESO means the death of any diversity or semblance of balance left in the game. I don't know what good stuff you're smoking, but I do not care.

Yet again you are so very wrong. Do you have anything to support such a claim?
At least think about this: if hybrids were intentionally uncompetitive, why did they allow to go hybrid. Just to trap unsuspecting newbies? This is laughable.

What you say is that going meta (with only a very slight differences) is the original intent. In this case there is no reason why to bother with any leveling and point distribution. You just should pick one of the pre-ready metas at the beginning, and then go killing stuff.

I know you are used to your build and you are OK woth that but just face it the only thing you did was to adapt to the unnatural conditions this combat system create. Yeah one of my alts, for example, is an altmer petsorc in Necro set. It works. But it is uniform and boring.

Ragnarock41

Vyvrhel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Hybrids being competitive in ESO means the death of any diversity or semblance of balance left in the game. I don't know what good stuff you're smoking, but I do not care.

Yet again you are so very wrong. Do you have anything to support such a claim?
At least think about this: if hybrids were intentionally uncompetitive, why did they allow to go hybrid. Just to trap unsuspecting newbies? This is laughable.

What you say is that going meta (with only a very slight differences) is the original intent. In this case there is no reason why to bother with any leveling and point distribution. You just should pick one of the pre-ready metas at the beginning, and then go killing stuff.

I know you are used to your build and you are OK woth that but just face it the only thing you did was to adapt to the unnatural conditions this combat system create. Yeah one of my alts, for example, is an altmer petsorc in Necro set. It works. But it is uniform and boring.

The intent is for non-optimal things to be viable. If you want to play a stamDk and have a ''stam whip'' with a hybrid build, you can do that and it will be viable, NOT optimal.

If it was optimal you would no longer have stam/mag Dk. You would only have Dk.

Vyvrhel

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

The intent is for non-optimal things to be viable.

Well in that case they failed badly. Because the non optimal builds are not viable. Once you deviate from the meta, the dps drop is significant. The passives you must have do a big difference. And this is my point.

As you mention a DK this is one shining example of a wrong skillset since IIRC (I do not play my DK alt much) the meta uses more weapon specific skills than the class skills.

Rianai

If someone struggles with "common overland mobs", then the issue isn't the build.
The single player games didn't really offer better balance and/or more build diversity, they were just lacking hard content and competition, so there was simply no reason to "optimize" builds. And the same applies to the majority of this game too. Overland, quests, story, normal grp content, even pvp to some extent, can be done with literally any build just fine, so there is really not that much difference.

Vyvrhel

Rianai wrote: »

If someone struggles with "common overland mobs", then the issue isn't the build.
The single player games didn't really offer better balance and/or more build diversity, they were just lacking hard content and competition, so there was simply no reason to "optimize" builds. And the same applies to the majority of this game too. Overland, quests, story, normal grp content, even pvp to some extent, can be done with literally any build just fine, so there is really not that much difference.

Well I seriously doubt you would be able to do well with, say, a Bosmer "battlemage" sorc who would mix magic, 2h and a bow in a vet dung. I dare to say you would have hard times to break something like 5K dps depending on your equip.

katorga

5cript wrote: »

try:
dark elf + shacklebreaker + new moon acolyte.

You will still have to decide for an armor type and have regen for both, which is suboptimal.
And Mundus cannot by hybrid.

Penetration, crit and crit damage mundus work with hybrid.

OG_Kaveman

Vyvrhel wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

If someone struggles with "common overland mobs", then the issue isn't the build.
The single player games didn't really offer better balance and/or more build diversity, they were just lacking hard content and competition, so there was simply no reason to "optimize" builds. And the same applies to the majority of this game too. Overland, quests, story, normal grp content, even pvp to some extent, can be done with literally any build just fine, so there is really not that much difference.

Well I seriously doubt you would be able to do well with, say, a Bosmer "battlemage" sorc who would mix magic, 2h and a bow in a vet dung. I dare to say you would have hard times to break something like 5K dps depending on your equip.

You would be fine in overland though, were other people are not with you. And that is were most people play the most. Once you get into a group, you have(not havvvee to but you know what I mean) to take their experience into consideration. Sure you could bring your wood elf hybrid in but you would be bringing the group down. That is what matters in the end in group content. The group.

idk

While Zos has chosen to offer some sets to help hybrid builds they seem pretty set on keeping a separation between magicka and stamina. Likely for balance concerns.

Rianai

Vyvrhel wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

If someone struggles with "common overland mobs", then the issue isn't the build.
The single player games didn't really offer better balance and/or more build diversity, they were just lacking hard content and competition, so there was simply no reason to "optimize" builds. And the same applies to the majority of this game too. Overland, quests, story, normal grp content, even pvp to some extent, can be done with literally any build just fine, so there is really not that much difference.

Well I seriously doubt you would be able to do well with, say, a Bosmer "battlemage" sorc who would mix magic, 2h and a bow in a vet dung. I dare to say you would have hard times to break something like 5K dps depending on your equip.

I did not mention vet content. That being said, most vet dungeons aren't that hard, so i do think that a properly build "Bosmer "battlemage" sorc who would mix magic, 2h and a bow" would be good enough for most of them. More than 5k dps is certainly possible.

kojou

IMO, the game would be a lot easier to balance, and provide for the flexibility you want if Stamina would be just used for feats (Sprint, Block, Bash, Sneak, etc) and Magicka was used for all skills. Of course we would then have to get rid of the distinction between spell crit and weapon crit, and spell damage and weapon damage and a lot of armor sets would have to be adjusted. This would leave specing for damage types (Fire, Frost, Physical, Bleed, etc).

The upside is you could have a "magicka" dragon knight with a 2 handed sword that focuses on flame damage be viable. Also, if you spec more into stamina then you would do so at the cost to your overall damage which would balance damage vs defense a little better. It would also be interesting to see what kinds of group healing builds would come out of it though... would dual daggers become BiS for healing?

The downside is that min/max builds would look more the same than they already are (if that is possible). Build variety would likely increase in PvP though given that you could combine pretty much anything.

It seems like we are kind of headed this way with resistances being consolidated into single armor value bonuses, races like the Dark Elves that have some of everything, and sets in general (New Moons Acolyte) that have both bonuses.

OG_Kaveman

kojou wrote: »

IMO, the game would be a lot easier to balance, and provide for the flexibility you want if Stamina would be just used for feats (Sprint, Block, Bash, Sneak, etc) and Magicka was used for all skills.

if this happened, you would literally only have one build for each class for dps that would be "viable", instead of the 2 we have now. that is bad. not sure how you dont see this.

The downside is that min/max builds would look more the same than they already are (if that is possible). Build variety would likely increase in PvP though given that you could combine pretty much anything.

oh, you do see this, but you would just have everyone running the same builds in pvp, too, unless there is some fundamental game changes because what you are asking for. the game would just be completely different then it is now, might as well not even be called elder scrolls online at that point.

Abyssmol

No, stamina can easily stack weapon damage; magicka not so much with spell damage...

sneakymitchell

5cript wrote: »

try:
dark elf + shacklebreaker + new moon acolyte.

You will still have to decide for an armor type and have regen for both, which is suboptimal.
And Mundus cannot by hybrid.

The lover stone got that penetration on both sides so the only hybrid mundus out there well the steed is another story for its self healing and speed.

Bobby_V_Rockit

sneakymitchell wrote: »

5cript wrote: »

try:
dark elf + shacklebreaker + new moon acolyte.

You will still have to decide for an armor type and have regen for both, which is suboptimal.
And Mundus cannot by hybrid.

The lover stone got that penetration on both sides so the only hybrid mundus out there well the steed is another story for its self healing and speed.

Also thief if crits too low

buttaface

At the very least, there should be more transparency as to exactly how much damage stat pools are adding, and exactly how much weapon/spell damage adds.

"Your current heavy attack/light attack/ specific skill damage is X, of which Y comes from stats, Z comes from weapon/spell damage, and W comes from Champion Points. This damage is in turn affected by A on average mobs and B on boss type mobs due to your penetration value P."

But yeah, kind of agree that they should do away with stat based damage. The status quo is not acceptable, and just another way that the player base at large is stymied when trying to figure out optimal ways to do the harder content.

Dusk_Coven

An interesting idea might be to have the tank/dps/heal three-way slider that SWL uses. One "power pool" but you divide it three ways into defense/damage/healing on the fly.

However any sort of change would require a sweeping re-audit of the system and honestly they are having enough trouble as it is.