Nobody Ever Dies: Welcome to the Ticklefight Meta

Jimmy_The_Fixer

Mostly the title, self-healing, especially periodic healing has become too powerful in comparison to offensive options, turning CP pvp into extended periods of jumping around at full HP because sustained offensive pressure can’t break through the HoTs as they currently exist.

Even in light/medium armor with no defensive sets while fighting another person in light/medium.

Intensive Mender, Cauterize, and Living Dark are the notable offenders, but the list of overtuned HoTs is pretty long.

It’s not an issue of class balance, since every class can effortlessly live forever unless they get 100-to-0’d in one burst. It’s just tedious and unrewarding gameplay.

PS: The problem is a lot less prominent in no-CP PvP. Also I don’t know how this patch is affecting large group fights.

Kadoin

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

PS: The problem is a lot less prominent in no-CP PvP. Also I don’t know how this patch is affecting large group fights.

Maybe because you can't get ridiculous amounts of healing and defense in no CP via the CP system, free sustain, and max stats which helps you go on the defensive more often that you ever could in no-CP.

You also cannot discount the CP abilities you gain too that are contributing like vengence, tactician, unchained, spell absorbtion, ... - oh wow, its pretty much all of them that are also contributing to the problem!

Now, if someone is layering 3+ HoTs and withstanding damage, I don't think it needs a nerf because it ultimately means they must run a sustain build or give opportunities to be attacked, both of which are downsides to the build.

The only HoTs I think need to be nerfed all happen to come from set sources, like Bogdan, Robes of the Hist, etc. OR maybe proc sets should stop being scaled with CP both offensive and healing proc sets.

I also still think, ever since Murkmire PTS, that BRP resto and DW need to have a cooldown or downside to their use.

But I'm sure what I said would be unpopular ...

EDIT: Fixed something confusing

Rahar

This has always been somewhat of a problem for CP PvP. Scalebreaker just made it go away for a little bit (and replaced it with something arguably worse), so now that it's back people are recognizing it for what it is. Of course, some HoT buffs here and there didn't help, but I think the main issue is stat bloat from CP.

TBois

That's what happens when you buff dots and hots a bunch. Then you only nerf dots. It was to be expected.

WreckfulAbandon

Pillow Fight Meta

olsborg

Agree with op, healing is way overtuned, specially on templar and warden. Also it is too easy to get insane amount of spell resist and physical resist and still maintain a good sustain and dmg on your build.

Vlad9425

Bring back One Tamriel or Homestead when everyone was dying fast and the game was actually fun.

React

Yeah, it has been this way for what seems like years now. It's a shame really. They really need to do a massive overhaul to the CP system, or just remove it entirely from PVP.

Witar

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Mostly the title, self-healing, especially periodic healing has become too powerful in comparison to offensive options, turning CP pvp into extended periods of jumping around at full HP because sustained offensive pressure can’t break through the HoTs as they currently exist.

Even in light/medium armor with no defensive sets while fighting another person in light/medium.

Intensive Mender, Cauterize, and Living Dark are the notable offenders

And not vigor ofc. That's believable. And all those stamdens are just my imagination.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

Witar wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Mostly the title, self-healing, especially periodic healing has become too powerful in comparison to offensive options, turning CP pvp into extended periods of jumping around at full HP because sustained offensive pressure can’t break through the HoTs as they currently exist.

Even in light/medium armor with no defensive sets while fighting another person in light/medium.

Intensive Mender, Cauterize, and Living Dark are the notable offenders

And not vigor ofc. That's believable. And all those stamdens are just my imagination.

Maybe Vigor and Rapid Regen need to be adjusted, but they would need to be nerfed with a lighter touch since they operate as the best classless “primary heal” options. Hit them too hard and the only viable classes are the ones with strong class heals.

susmitds

Self healing for most classes. Group healing is the issue.

Universal nerf of healing affect classes without great class heals and healing modifiers the most.

What we need is more accessible Defile and Healing absorption options.

Dr_Ganknstein

I never liked how your healing was based on an offensive stat in this game. That makes it more fun individually but defeats the purpose of specializing for healing. Basically the argonian passive. Much better to just go spell DAMAGE instead of healing... for healing...

Canned_Apples

Stop playing CP?

Mayrael

On CP campaign I'm still able to deliver pretty hard hitting blows. Yes I need to work more for my kills but it's not impossible as fights where my enemies drop into execution range are most common (most of them sooner or later ends in death). So TBH I don't see a problem in killing people when compared to last patch.

Edit:
I think that dot meta was really stupid because anyone could deliver significant amounts of damage without risking to much, now combat feels more rewarding. I like it.

Nerftheforums

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Bring back One Tamriel or Homestead when everyone was dying fast and the game was actually fun.

You miss sets killing for you?

Koensol

It's all down to cp being broken. No cp is nothing like that at all. Honestly, if you hate the 'tank meta' just play no cp.

katorga

Don't worry, in four months ZOS will over nerf healing, and people will be complaining about being insta-killed with no counter play. They have already telegraphed as much the last PTS notes.

Qbiken

Koensol wrote: »

It's all down to cp being broken. No cp is nothing like that at all. Honestly, if you hate the 'tank meta' just play no cp.

Both you and I know that healing is just as overtuned in no cp as is cp. High MMR battlegrounds in Dragonhold (assuming the game lets you into a BG in the first place lol) is a complete joke with all HoT stacking and BRP restocarry groups. Even in Scalebreaker I don't think I saw a single high mmr deathmatch where any team reached 500 points (unless it was a 3-4 man premade against 2 teams with 0 premades/duos), due to how strong healing is in no cp.

Chilly-McFreeze

I have a feeling that PvE'rs won't like where this is heading.

*impending nerf hammer rises at the horizon*

Koensol

Qbiken wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

It's all down to cp being broken. No cp is nothing like that at all. Honestly, if you hate the 'tank meta' just play no cp.

Both you and I know that healing is just as overtuned in no cp as is cp. High MMR battlegrounds in Dragonhold (assuming the game lets you into a BG in the first place lol) is a complete joke with all HoT stacking and BRP restocarry groups. Even in Scalebreaker I don't think I saw a single high mmr deathmatch where any team reached 500 points (unless it was a 3-4 man premade against 2 teams with 0 premades/duos), due to how strong healing is in no cp.

Okay, maybe I placed a bit too much hyperbole on that post. But both you and I also know that cp inflates this issue to the next level. I actually welcome a bit more of a brawler meta over the dot stacking meta we had where damage was so overwhelming you were almost constantly on the defensive when pressured. In BG's specifically this might cause some more drawn out matches, especially if there is a healbot.

Overall though in high MMR (not the currwnt bs where you get paired with cp 100 players) people usually know to stick together and focus targets. You just have to change your approach a bit and go for more burst damage in stead of just dot/AoE pressure. As long as you can get 1 guy down, the rest will crumble from the increased pressure anyway if skill levels are equal. Sure there will be the occasional sweaty premade stacking all sorts of hots, rotating resto ults, etc. and be almost unkillable for the random solo que group. But this has always been the case in premade vs randoms.

In no cp cyrodiil the tank meta is not that visible for tbh. People can still die easily when outnumbered, simply because no cp is less forgiving on the sustain and procs, light attacks and everything hits harder.

If you want to nerf something, nerf the overperforming sets like brp resto and brp dw. I had a conversation about this in my guild's discord and imo all the arena weapons should offer a unique effect, in stead of a major buff like vitality or protection which is far too potent to have full uptime on. A good example of balanced arena weapons with useful effects are the vma resto and master 2h. These weapons are useful to certain builds, while not offering a 100% carry.

Baphomet

It's true - I've also pointed it out elsewhere.

However, we're actually close to the sweet spot when it comes to HoTs vs. DoTs.

But, instead of completely overhauling everything and screw it up, which ZoS most likely will do as this discrepancy dawns on them, we just need to buff DoTs with approx. 20% again to offset the difference.

Then see how it plays out and maybe tweak a little further.

UppGRAYxDD

scubasteve28

It's very noticeable in dueling environments. Sometimes I mess up and should die, but I'm able to save myself with a vigor and a rally. Other times fights just drag on to the point where both people are running out of resources and you essentially reset the fight with heavy attacks.

katorga

Baphomet wrote: »

It's true - I've also pointed it out elsewhere.

However, we're actually close to the sweet spot when it comes to HoTs vs. DoTs.

But, instead of completely overhauling everything and screw it up, which ZoS most likely will do as this discrepancy dawns on them, we just need to buff DoTs with approx. 20% again to offset the difference.

Then see how it plays out and maybe tweak a little further.

No way. They clearly said they were leaving healing as is, and would revisit healing next PTS. They are going to gut it 50-60% just like dots. And it won't be just hots, they'll nerf burst heals too. The players are already complaining about healing...so it is going to get nerfed.

They might throw in some more block nerfs too.

React

It's like people haven't realized there is an issue when you can survive almost anyone on any setup by not fighting back and just healing/facetanking...

Mrsinister2

Get yourself at least a 20k onslaught tool tip and something will die

Maybe not everything but things will die

Sarousse

God, I miss softcaps so hard.

Major_Lag

katorga wrote: »

No way. They clearly said they were leaving healing as is, and would revisit healing next PTS. They are going to gut it 50-60% just like dots. And it won't be just hots, they'll nerf burst heals too.

Wow, what an optimist. Only 60% nerf?
After what happened with the last 2 updates, I'm fully expecting something along the lines of 80-90%. (yes, that means a 5...10x reduction!)

Then what will happen is that everyone will be just far too brittle to survive any kind of outnumbered situation, and instead of the current tank meta we will have a brand new "siege/snipe from keep walls" meta.
Yay....?????

Derra

Baphomet wrote: »

It's true - I've also pointed it out elsewhere.

However, we're actually close to the sweet spot when it comes to HoTs vs. DoTs.

But, instead of completely overhauling everything and screw it up, which ZoS most likely will do as this discrepancy dawns on them, we just need to buff DoTs with approx. 20% again to offset the difference.

Then see how it plays out and maybe tweak a little further.

what about classes with no dots?

Van_Winkle

I have seen a lot of unkillable guys on non-cp as well. It is purely a mad-heals problem, not cp. Zos'es removed ALL adequate heal-reduction abilities and increase heal a lot.

mague

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Also I don’t know how this patch is affecting large group fights.

Thats the point of the patch. PvP is quite some fun as it is. But..

The big but is that it favors organised vs. organised. Unorganised has no longer tools to break up organised groups. I am quite sure this is intended and this is not bad per se. I also agree this is not a problem of class balance or battlespirit balance.

The game lacks collision. Organised are able to move or stay where ever they want and as long as they want. They can pick any scroll anytime of the day. As long as a group is able to run literally THROUGH another group and dump all damage in a huge spike while passing them there is no longer room for "open groups" or PUGs.