Non-pet Magsorcs (PvE)

Amorpho

Will it be possible next patch to reach the same DPS output of pet-sorcs with a non pet-sorc? I really hate those pets!

Has anyone done any testing? What's the dps difference and what sets would you run for a non-pet sorc next patch?

Siohwenoeht

I'm on console so don't have the patch yet but my no pet sorc does very well and I don't really see anything that will affect it too greatly, but if you aren't running a heavy attack build you may need to switch some glyphs or add ha's into your rotation to compensate for the sustain changes.

ShadowKyuubi

From what I understand, pet sorcs are performing better than non pet sorcs.

WrathOfInnos

Still a lot of testing to do, but pet Sorc seems to do about 3k DPS more than no pet on the Iron Atronach (87k vs 84k in my hands, though I’ve seen others do slightly better on both). The main issue with no pet is that there simply aren’t any good skills to slot instead of pets (RIP Liquid Lightning, Consuming Trap, Entropy, Flame Reach, and Scalding Rune), so it’s nearly the same build just with Inner Light and Bound Aegis replacing the Scamp and the Twilight, but obviously inferior.

MakeMeUhSamich

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Still a lot of testing to do, but pet Sorc seems to do about 3k DPS more than no pet on the Iron Atronach (87k vs 84k in my hands, though I’ve seen others do slightly better on both). The main issue with no pet is that there simply aren’t any good skills to slot instead of pets (RIP Liquid Lightning, Consuming Trap, Entropy, Flame Reach, and Scalding Rune), so it’s nearly the same build just with Inner Light and Bound Aegis replacing the Scamp and the Twilight, but obviously inferior.

Would you mind sharing your no-pet build and parse?

Cheers!

kringled_1

What's left to run for PvE dps on a sorc without pets? There's not much left besides wall, curse (maybe?) and a non class spammable with frags when it procs.

croninjoshua

kringled_1 wrote: »

What's left to run for PvE dps on a sorc without pets? There's not much left besides wall, curse (maybe?) and a non class spammable with frags when it procs.

They nerfed how curse works too. they reduced the damage your pets do while curse is active

WrathOfInnos

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Still a lot of testing to do, but pet Sorc seems to do about 3k DPS more than no pet on the Iron Atronach (87k vs 84k in my hands, though I’ve seen others do slightly better on both). The main issue with no pet is that there simply aren’t any good skills to slot instead of pets (RIP Liquid Lightning, Consuming Trap, Entropy, Flame Reach, and Scalding Rune), so it’s nearly the same build just with Inner Light and Bound Aegis replacing the Scamp and the Twilight, but obviously inferior.

Would you mind sharing your no-pet build and parse?

Cheers!

@MakeMeUhSamich Definitely subject to change, but here is the latest:



Siroria + Sorrow + Zaan
(probably swap to False Gods + Spell Strat for some content)

Front Bar: Ele Weapon, Crystal Fragments, Haunting Curse, Inner Light, Bound Aegis, Storm Atronach

Back Bar: Unstable Wall, Barbed Trap, Dark Exchange, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis, Meteor

Rotation is just:
Trap, Wall, 8X spammables
Exchange, Wall, 8X spammables

Where Frags or Haunting replace a spammable dynamically.

I’m on the fence about Boundless Storm, since it forces constant melee range (where Barbed Trap is just momentary melee range), but with every other DoT terrible it’s an option. That slot could alternately be passive Frags to try to get a proc when casting Wall, or Inner Light on back bar for passive damage and to reduce resource bouncing when swapping.

I’m not sure this is the best build this patch, but it pulls halfway decent damage while we work out the details. Super boring to use though, and I miss Liquid Lightning. Even Mystic Orbs is proving to be a DPS loss, mostly because it is expensive. I’d really like to make Mage’s Wrath or Endless Fury work, but so far I have not been impressed with the results.

Zephard

Could you put channeled acc instead of barbed trap to stay out of melee range?

You like ele weapon?

ShadowKyuubi

Zephard wrote: »

Could you put channeled acc instead of barbed trap to stay out of melee range?

You like ele weapon?

Yeah, most have channeled instead of trap for content. Trap is strictly for parsing as it is more damage and doesn't have a cast time.

WrathOfInnos

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

Zephard wrote: »

Could you put channeled acc instead of barbed trap to stay out of melee range?

You like ele weapon?

Yeah, most have channeled instead of trap for content. Trap is strictly for parsing as it is more damage and doesn't have a cast time.

Sustain is bad, and Barbed doesn’t cost Magicka. Barbed also doesn’t make you miss a Light Attack like Acceleration does with its cast time. I’d go with Barbed wherever possible. Where it’s not possible, you’re probably better off not using Minor Force at all (unless the fight is less than 36s or there is downtime for recasting).

ShadowKyuubi

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

Zephard wrote: »

Could you put channeled acc instead of barbed trap to stay out of melee range?

You like ele weapon?

Yeah, most have channeled instead of trap for content. Trap is strictly for parsing as it is more damage and doesn't have a cast time.

Sustain is bad, and Barbed doesn’t cost Magicka. Barbed also doesn’t make you miss a Light Attack like Acceleration does with its cast time. I’d go with Barbed wherever possible. Where it’s not possible, you’re probably better off not using Minor Force at all (unless the fight is less than 36s or there is downtime for recasting).

Yeah, sustain is bad, but unless your in a stationary fight, I wouldn't run barbed trap as a magicka toon. If channeled acceleration is the skill you say no to because of sustain, then something else is going on with your sustain. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that they would give up minor force. Yeah, you have to give up one light attack every 30ish seconds, but that is fine because the gain of minor force is worth it. If sustain truly is the problem, then run an absorb magicka enchant on your backbar with an infused staff. Or change a jewelry enchant to recovery.

ShadowKyuubi

Just to add to why you want minor force, and this is more of my opinion than anything else. People talk about being in a spammable meta, dot meta, ect… However, there is an overlapping meta we have been in for the past couple years. The crit meta. Critical damage plays a huge role in the damage done by players today, this started with summerset really. When the Warrior and Apprentice stopped being the BiS mundus stones and everyone started running with Thief or Shadow. People tend to forget, but there are two easy ways to increase damage. Increase your penetration, which has a limit. Or, increase your critical damage (not crit chance, that has diminishing returns), which doesn't have a cap. Hence why I think it is important to have minor force whenever you can.

MakeMeUhSamich

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Still a lot of testing to do, but pet Sorc seems to do about 3k DPS more than no pet on the Iron Atronach (87k vs 84k in my hands, though I’ve seen others do slightly better on both). The main issue with no pet is that there simply aren’t any good skills to slot instead of pets (RIP Liquid Lightning, Consuming Trap, Entropy, Flame Reach, and Scalding Rune), so it’s nearly the same build just with Inner Light and Bound Aegis replacing the Scamp and the Twilight, but obviously inferior.

Would you mind sharing your no-pet build and parse?

Cheers!

@MakeMeUhSamich Definitely subject to change, but here is the latest:



Siroria + Sorrow + Zaan
(probably swap to False Gods + Spell Strat for some content)

Front Bar: Ele Weapon, Crystal Fragments, Haunting Curse, Inner Light, Bound Aegis, Storm Atronach

Back Bar: Unstable Wall, Barbed Trap, Dark Exchange, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis, Meteor

Rotation is just:
Trap, Wall, 8X spammables
Exchange, Wall, 8X spammables

Where Frags or Haunting replace a spammable dynamically.

I’m on the fence about Boundless Storm, since it forces constant melee range (where Barbed Trap is just momentary melee range), but with every other DoT terrible it’s an option. That slot could alternately be passive Frags to try to get a proc when casting Wall, or Inner Light on back bar for passive damage and to reduce resource bouncing when swapping.

I’m not sure this is the best build this patch, but it pulls halfway decent damage while we work out the details. Super boring to use though, and I miss Liquid Lightning. Even Mystic Orbs is proving to be a DPS loss, mostly because it is expensive. I’d really like to make Mage’s Wrath or Endless Fury work, but so far I have not been impressed with the results.

Thank you, kindly!

WrathOfInnos

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

Zephard wrote: »

Could you put channeled acc instead of barbed trap to stay out of melee range?

You like ele weapon?

Yeah, most have channeled instead of trap for content. Trap is strictly for parsing as it is more damage and doesn't have a cast time.

Sustain is bad, and Barbed doesn’t cost Magicka. Barbed also doesn’t make you miss a Light Attack like Acceleration does with its cast time. I’d go with Barbed wherever possible. Where it’s not possible, you’re probably better off not using Minor Force at all (unless the fight is less than 36s or there is downtime for recasting).

Yeah, sustain is bad, but unless your in a stationary fight, I wouldn't run barbed trap as a magicka toon. If channeled acceleration is the skill you say no to because of sustain, then something else is going on with your sustain. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that they would give up minor force. Yeah, you have to give up one light attack every 30ish seconds, but that is fine because the gain of minor force is worth it. If sustain truly is the problem, then run an absorb magicka enchant on your backbar with an infused staff. Or change a jewelry enchant to recovery.

Haha, I’m aware of the options, I’m just saying that they are all inferior to this one. Barbed Trap isn’t bad now that it’s 18s, and both the Minor Force and the DoT remain even if the enemy moves. Channeled Accel costs about 2.3k Magicka, and if used every 36s it drains around 65 Magicka per second. Having to build for 130 more Magicka recovery is definitely significant with the state of sustain this patch. It’s the difference between running out of Magicka or ending a 4 minute fight with 16k remaining.

As for giving up Minor Force, it is at most a 4% DPS impact, or 3.6k on an 84k parse. You gain 2 spammables (average 42k each) and a Light Attack (average 24k), for 108k damage in 36s or 3k gain. The higher front bar uptime (better stats, more enchant procs, etc.), and freeing up a bar slot for even something like Inner Light more than makes up for that 600 DPS difference. So I maintain that for a fight without downtime:

Barbed Trap > No Minor Force > Channeled Acceleration

ShadowKyuubi

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

Zephard wrote: »

Could you put channeled acc instead of barbed trap to stay out of melee range?

You like ele weapon?

Yeah, most have channeled instead of trap for content. Trap is strictly for parsing as it is more damage and doesn't have a cast time.

Sustain is bad, and Barbed doesn’t cost Magicka. Barbed also doesn’t make you miss a Light Attack like Acceleration does with its cast time. I’d go with Barbed wherever possible. Where it’s not possible, you’re probably better off not using Minor Force at all (unless the fight is less than 36s or there is downtime for recasting).

Yeah, sustain is bad, but unless your in a stationary fight, I wouldn't run barbed trap as a magicka toon. If channeled acceleration is the skill you say no to because of sustain, then something else is going on with your sustain. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that they would give up minor force. Yeah, you have to give up one light attack every 30ish seconds, but that is fine because the gain of minor force is worth it. If sustain truly is the problem, then run an absorb magicka enchant on your backbar with an infused staff. Or change a jewelry enchant to recovery.

Haha, I’m aware of the options, I’m just saying that they are all inferior to this one. Barbed Trap isn’t bad now that it’s 18s, and both the Minor Force and the DoT remain even if the enemy moves. Channeled Accel costs about 2.3k Magicka, and if used every 36s it drains around 65 Magicka per second. Having to build for 130 more Magicka recovery is definitely significant with the state of sustain this patch.

As for giving up Minor Force, it is at most a 4% DPS impact, or 3.6k on an 84k parse. You gain 2 spammables (average 42k each) and a Light Attack (average 24k), for 108k damage in 36s or 3k gain. The higher front bar uptime, and freeing up a bar slot for even something like Inner Light more than makes up for that 600 DPS difference. So I maintain that for a fight without downtime:

Barbed Trap > No Minor Force > Channeled Acceleration

Was that a parse on the PTS? It was dated before the patch went live.

WrathOfInnos

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

Zephard wrote: »

Could you put channeled acc instead of barbed trap to stay out of melee range?

You like ele weapon?

Yeah, most have channeled instead of trap for content. Trap is strictly for parsing as it is more damage and doesn't have a cast time.

Sustain is bad, and Barbed doesn’t cost Magicka. Barbed also doesn’t make you miss a Light Attack like Acceleration does with its cast time. I’d go with Barbed wherever possible. Where it’s not possible, you’re probably better off not using Minor Force at all (unless the fight is less than 36s or there is downtime for recasting).

Yeah, sustain is bad, but unless your in a stationary fight, I wouldn't run barbed trap as a magicka toon. If channeled acceleration is the skill you say no to because of sustain, then something else is going on with your sustain. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that they would give up minor force. Yeah, you have to give up one light attack every 30ish seconds, but that is fine because the gain of minor force is worth it. If sustain truly is the problem, then run an absorb magicka enchant on your backbar with an infused staff. Or change a jewelry enchant to recovery.

Haha, I’m aware of the options, I’m just saying that they are all inferior to this one. Barbed Trap isn’t bad now that it’s 18s, and both the Minor Force and the DoT remain even if the enemy moves. Channeled Accel costs about 2.3k Magicka, and if used every 36s it drains around 65 Magicka per second. Having to build for 130 more Magicka recovery is definitely significant with the state of sustain this patch.

As for giving up Minor Force, it is at most a 4% DPS impact, or 3.6k on an 84k parse. You gain 2 spammables (average 42k each) and a Light Attack (average 24k), for 108k damage in 36s or 3k gain. The higher front bar uptime, and freeing up a bar slot for even something like Inner Light more than makes up for that 600 DPS difference. So I maintain that for a fight without downtime:

Barbed Trap > No Minor Force > Channeled Acceleration

Was that a parse on the PTS? It was dated before the patch went live.

Yep, I’ve been mostly on PTS for the last 4 weeks.

Amorpho

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Still a lot of testing to do, but pet Sorc seems to do about 3k DPS more than no pet on the Iron Atronach (87k vs 84k in my hands, though I’ve seen others do slightly better on both). The main issue with no pet is that there simply aren’t any good skills to slot instead of pets (RIP Liquid Lightning, Consuming Trap, Entropy, Flame Reach, and Scalding Rune), so it’s nearly the same build just with Inner Light and Bound Aegis replacing the Scamp and the Twilight, but obviously inferior.

It is because of these reasons that I racechanged from breton to redguard and started running stam (when I played magsorc since launch ) I was hoping for some general improvement with this patch, but our class skills really suck (if you're not running pets). Does twisting path do more damage than liquid lightning now?

WrathOfInnos

Amorpho wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Still a lot of testing to do, but pet Sorc seems to do about 3k DPS more than no pet on the Iron Atronach (87k vs 84k in my hands, though I’ve seen others do slightly better on both). The main issue with no pet is that there simply aren’t any good skills to slot instead of pets (RIP Liquid Lightning, Consuming Trap, Entropy, Flame Reach, and Scalding Rune), so it’s nearly the same build just with Inner Light and Bound Aegis replacing the Scamp and the Twilight, but obviously inferior.

It is because of these reasons that I racechanged from breton to redguard and started running stam (when I played magsorc since launch ) I was hoping for some general improvement with this patch, but our class skills really suck (if you're not running pets). Does twisting path do more damage than liquid lightning now?

Yeah, Twisting Path and Winter’s Revenge both do about double the DPS of Liquid Lightning. All 3 were nerfed to useless in the early PTS cycle, then Path and Winter were rightfully buffed to the point where they are worth slotting. Somehow Liquid Lightning was missed, and remains pitiful damage with a massive Magicka cost.

Amorpho

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Amorpho wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Still a lot of testing to do, but pet Sorc seems to do about 3k DPS more than no pet on the Iron Atronach (87k vs 84k in my hands, though I’ve seen others do slightly better on both). The main issue with no pet is that there simply aren’t any good skills to slot instead of pets (RIP Liquid Lightning, Consuming Trap, Entropy, Flame Reach, and Scalding Rune), so it’s nearly the same build just with Inner Light and Bound Aegis replacing the Scamp and the Twilight, but obviously inferior.

It is because of these reasons that I racechanged from breton to redguard and started running stam (when I played magsorc since launch ) I was hoping for some general improvement with this patch, but our class skills really suck (if you're not running pets). Does twisting path do more damage than liquid lightning now?

Yeah, Twisting Path and Winter’s Revenge both do about double the DPS of Liquid Lightning. All 3 were nerfed to useless in the early PTS cycle, then Path and Winter were rightfully buffed to the point where they are worth slotting. Somehow Liquid Lightning was missed, and remains pitiful damage with a massive Magicka cost.

That's what I don't understand. They talk about "standardising" skills but then they leave liquid lightning out completely. I'm just going to stick to Stamsorc and Magblade for PVE dps next patch.