The primary reason for balance issues is catering to a small minority

BNOC

I have to disagree and say that the changes that are made for the most part are quite clearly implemented to make the game generically easier for the vast majority of uninterested, casual players who don't want to learn anything in depth.

Sure, there's people who are decent and want to be unstoppable but honestly, they often argue amongst themselves and if you're talking about balance, I'd sooner be interested in their conversation than players with no in-depth knowledge who say it's fine.

Dusk_Coven

The title of the thread is fundamentally correct, with that "minority" being as small as one person.
The community in general cannot be trusted to provide feedback that isn't selfish or loaded with an ulterior motive.

ZOS should continue their recently stated direction which includes watching PLAY PATTERNS and adjusting for the results. Data, not opinion. Forum posts can mostly be classified generously under "opinion" and ZOS is right to not comment on most of it.

Even if you ludicrously believe all comments are well-intentioned, as the old saying goes, "too many cooks spoil the soup".

Sanguinor2

GallantGuardian wrote: »

I have to agree with that and a shiny example of this is

When it comes to pve tanking we can no longer double bar sword and shield and get full enchant benefits which I find completely unfair

And I believe it’s because the toxic elite likes this platstyle better specifically to get all tanks to back bar lightning staff for their raid groups ... to make it the “meta” in case they need a tank most tanks will be running this now due to them killing double sword and shield bars

Now if you use it you are “beginner tanking” nvm the fact that as a tank I don’t want to use a staff has nothing to do with being a beginner or not I’ve completed most content in this game not all but most ...

And now I’m being forced or shunned if I don’t comply unless I make my own group

Any time you suggest adding on with out readjusting anything on the sword and shield skill line just add on to one of its passives (doubles the enchantment when sword and shield is equipped) You get a bunch of people arguing you down and mocking you for not being happy with this new meta and wanting to have an option ...

Now not only do I have to use a weapon I don’t want to but I also have to remove potential abilities I’d rather use and am forced to place one staff ability on my back bar


Zos has ignored this and the elite like it ... so we don’t get to have it back the other way

Sword and Shield enchants got changed because of pvp (glyphgate) but believe what you want I guess?

Dusk_Coven

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

The PvP community complaining about lack of PvP population hasn't clued in yet that people thinking about PvP start out as casuals. Most of whom can't gain traction and drop out.
Some of them even want to play what they want instead of playing what other people tell them to play.

If you start something and drop out cuz it's too hard you weren't committed in the first place.

For a lot of PvP newcomers to ESO, it's like wanting to get into boxing but every fight is with Mike Tyson. Even Under-50 BG isnt' working as intended because of twinks.
There's a reason newcomers to boxing IRL don't have that experience.

Overall, ZOS grossly underestimates the loopholes available in ESO in general.

spartaxoxo

Aerenel wrote: »

I'm curious what the proposed solution would be anyways. Tell good pvpers to go easy on weak ones? Force top raid teams to carry incapable people during their core times? This all reads as someone who is just mad that other people are good at a game.

Make the vet raids something doable by the top 10% instead of less than 1%. This way more people will be able to farm the gear needed for PvP. The cream will still rise to the top.

Iskiab

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

The PvP community complaining about lack of PvP population hasn't clued in yet that people thinking about PvP start out as casuals. Most of whom can't gain traction and drop out.
Some of them even want to play what they want instead of playing what other people tell them to play.

If you start something and drop out cuz it's too hard you weren't committed in the first place.

For a lot of PvP newcomers to ESO, it's like wanting to get into boxing but every fight is with Mike Tyson. Even Under-50 BG isnt' working as intended because of twinks.
There's a reason newcomers to boxing IRL don't have that experience.

Overall, ZOS grossly underestimates the loopholes available in ESO in general.

Agreed, but you can get caught constantly patching loopholes and not looking at the big picture.

As a player we’re stakeholders in the game. If we condone abusing mechanics they will always be abused.

If someone exploits then ostracize them, players have to do some self policing too. Don’t run in lowby BG premades and don’t play with people who do.

Thogard

Balance changes tend to support casuals, not elite players.

Virtually every 1vX viable spec / build over the last few years has been nerfed into the ground. Skills that required skillful play to use (and that rewarded skillful play) have been nerfed or made obsolete, while brainless skills have been buffed.

If you don’t enjoy theorycrafting builds, that’s fine... but if you don’t want to theorycraft a build AND you’re too proud to use a build on YouTube, you should ask yourself why you’re playing PvP in an MMO rather than an FPS or an RTS.

I’ve found that most people who hate on “meta” builds tend to be bad players in general, and putting them in a “meta” build would remove the only ego-defense mechanism they have left: “I only lost because ______”

Seriously though, if you have 100+ days /played and still can’t come up with your own good build or use someone else’s, that’s on YOU.

Heatnix90

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aerenel wrote: »

I'm curious what the proposed solution would be anyways. Tell good pvpers to go easy on weak ones? Force top raid teams to carry incapable people during their core times? This all reads as someone who is just mad that other people are good at a game.

Make the vet raids something doable by the top 10% instead of less than 1%. This way more people will be able to farm the gear needed for PvP. The cream will still rise to the top.

There's only like 2 sets that are remotely useful for PvP and those can be farmed on normal (VO and False God). Nothing else is even remotely useful.

Uviryth wrote: »

Well said, I couldnt agree more.
1vsX (or Small Group vs. Large Group)-Gameplay was always the cancer of WPvP, eversince Dark Age of Camelot. Those idiots always think they have so much skill when really they are just exploiting mechanics to ruin as many peoples fun as possible. Plus the players actually playing the game as its intended are always called "Zergers", as if thats an insult.

Veterancontent in ESO is completely out of whack. I never seen anything like it in any mmo. There are Dungeons you literally cant clear if your not a dedicated PvEgroup doing the same dungeon over and over again.

I'm curious to know what mechanics you think are broken in PvP. Line of Sight? Cross-healing? Timing your burst with a CC? All of these mechanics are available to casuals as well. Whether they want to learn how to use them or not is a different story.

JumpmanLane

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

The PvP community complaining about lack of PvP population hasn't clued in yet that people thinking about PvP start out as casuals. Most of whom can't gain traction and drop out.
Some of them even want to play what they want instead of playing what other people tell them to play.

If you start something and drop out cuz it's too hard you weren't committed in the first place.

For a lot of PvP newcomers to ESO, it's like wanting to get into boxing but every fight is with Mike Tyson. Even Under-50 BG isnt' working as intended because of twinks.
There's a reason newcomers to boxing IRL don't have that experience.

Overall, ZOS grossly underestimates the loopholes available in ESO in general.

Nah, if that’s so, it’s because most newcomers to PvP in ESO wait too long to start. They dork around in PvE unto they’re ready, which means until they think they are good at the game and get reckt when they come to Cyro.

I started full CP PvP at level 10, with ONE bar and NO Cp at all. I had on 3 pieces of Twin Sisters jewelry and that’s IT. I had NO illusions about being good at the game.

I stuck with it. I knew one of these days, like Ali, I was gonna shock the world! To keep a boxing analogy going.

kpittsniperb14_ESO

nsmurfer wrote: »

The ridiculous changes over the last few patches can be explained largely by split feedback.

The eso community is split into two wildly different categories. Contrary to popular belief, it is not exactly the PvE vs PvP camp. It is actually the vast majority who play for fun and enjoyments vs a select group of toxic elitists who are the vocal minority. Before anyone flames me, let me explain.

In PvP, the vast majority of players play to enjoy the social aspect. They have fun participating with what ever their faction is doing, be it taking keeps, large scale fights and be it bantering in zone chat or whatever. They dont complain about zergs, tank meta or overpowered skills etc. They recognize the fact that just because a class or skill is better in some way than others, it does not make it overpowered and if they find a class more fun than the rest, they switch to it. They dont care that TTK is high nor do they camplain about large scale faction wars(apart from performance issues). They prefer faction locks so that factions have a real meaning.

On the other hand are the 1vXers and small scalers. They are easily the most toxic and elitist group in the game. They play purely to kill and humiliate others in whatever way possible and thereby "expose zerglings". They intentionally abuse broken builds creating the balance problems in the first place and then call for things to be nerfed. Anything remotely defensive that people use to defend against them will get nerfed to appease them, be it sets like Pirate Skeleton, Malubeth, brass, protective or skills like shields, healing ward etc. They will lobby to get any kind of group utility removed from skills like Backlash just make their playstyle easier. They intentionally overlook the fact that 1vX play by definition is possible due to massive balance issue which they ignore because it favours them. These players abuse everything from macros for automated animation cancelling, scripts or exploits etc for their playstyle. This was highly evident in the IC event, they spawn camped faction bases killing players before they can react, even using the lift exploit in cases. Their constant abuse of broken mechanics to kill players and constant trolling/griefing both in the IC event and in Cyrodiil is a major source of griefing for the majority of the playerbase in general. A big number are also streamers, who often troll etc just for clout and epeen.

It is a very similar scene in PvE with a select few groups on top, which are only ones capable of completing the hardest content while the absolute majority can't even do most vet dungeons. The top guilds mostly doesn't do anything to help average players, so there is no advancement in majority of the playerbase. On the contrary majority of them are super toxic and are involved in shady practices like selling carries for skins/loots/clears for huge amounts of gold. Yet most balance changes are done keeping this small population in mind. Also there is a big overlap between the PvE top players and PvP top players, resulting in further toxicity and elitism.

Most of the feedback we give on forums etc is basically useless as it is not considered at all. The feedback that is taken is limited exclusively to discords like the class discords, top raid guild discords and private feedback given directly to devs and class reps. These discords are filled with elitists and to have any voice there, you need to show that you belong by being a toxic elitist 1vXer or a vet dlc trial score holder. Otherwise any feedback you give will get shut down and you will get ruthless mocked, clowned and kicked. Even class reps are not immune from that as a certain sorc class rep got removed for being "fil*** casual". Average players have hardly any say on changes. Classes and skills get changed to suit the particular playstyles by the small minority.

So it's just been my imagination then that ZOS has been intentionally making the game more casual friendly over the last 3 years by "raising the floor and lowering the ceiling"? Also which feedback are you giving that they aren't listening to because from where I sit, they are hearing you and those that share your opinion loud and clear.

1VX and smallscale have been nearly killed off. Faction lock is killing off what little pvp is to be had in Cyrodiil by ensuring that any sort of population balance will never be achieved. Organized group pvp is at an all time low with maybe a handful of groups able to adapt to the nerfs to group play brought on in attempts to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". Which suggestions and feedback aren't they listening to from the casual community, seriously no sarcasm, I would like to understand where you're coming from here.

ZOS_RogerJ

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