The primary reason for balance issues is catering to a small minority

Korah_Eaglecry

nsmurfer wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

The PvP community complaining about lack of PvP population hasn't clued in yet that people thinking about PvP start out as casuals. Most of whom can't gain traction and drop out.
Some of them even want to play what they want instead of playing what other people tell them to play.

I think ZOS has figured it out though and their direction is power fantasy and play your way. Hopefully that works out AND they separate people by a system of proper leagues so people can have their power fantasy, play the way they want, and still get grouped with people against whom they have a 50/50 chance.

The very thing killing the PvP population is the fact 1vXing and small scaling is possible. When two people die to one player, they might not think much and laugh it off as bad play on their part. When multiple players of a group are killed by a single player, they soon realize that PvP is broken in this game and move on never coming back unless absolutely necessary. In no other game, even the best player can kill groups.
Most successful PvP games are somewhat welcoming to new players. In this game, new players are trolled, farmed, ganked, tbagged and humiliated constantly. Without new players, PvP population will obviously drop. I know many people who first started PvP during the IC event. Their first experience was being killed right on spawn multiple times over and over, ganked mercilessly. Their whole groups got bombed, they got killed while questing and doing PvE. Majority of them will never return to PvP again.

Honestly when it came to PvP its the only thing that was ever really frustrating to me outside of being over run when we didn't have enough folks online for our side. But I could suck it up when it came to the disparity in numbers vs numbers game because eventually more people would log in and the fight would even out. But that wasn't going to happen when you ran into a player that seemed damned near god like and they didn't even have the current Emp title. And I was running with players specifically set up for PvP. These were players that were so deep in it that they had to tippy toe around playing PvP with different groups or at certain times of the day because their dedicated PvP guilds forbade their participation with outsiders. They were not noobs, they were not running terrible builds or just bad. These were recognizable names in the console PvP community. And they would still struggle along side me trying to put down these immortals that would take 10-15 minutes of 10+ on 1-2 player fights to kill.

There is absolutely nothing enjoyable about that sort of encounter unless youre on the 1vXer side of it.

itscompton

Casterial wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

The PvP community complaining about lack of PvP population hasn't clued in yet that people thinking about PvP start out as casuals. Most of whom can't gain traction and drop out.
Some of them even want to play what they want instead of playing what other people tell them to play.

PVP Casuals drop out because of lag, before Lag Cyrodiil was popping and had ~3 full servers.

This. And each of those servers had 2-3X the population cap we have now.

Mr_Walker

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

OP, did you ever played other multiplayer games? If yes, then you consider ESO PVP/PVE end-game playerbase as something totally different from average players and from average humans.

People play multiplayer games not for some "fun". People play to be victorious, it maybe victory due to luck, skill, cheeze or in case of MMORPG - build.

No, I play for fun, you may have something missing in your life if you play to be "victorious".

Kiralyn2000

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

OP, did you ever played other multiplayer games? If yes, then you consider ESO PVP/PVE end-game playerbase as something totally different from average players and from average humans.

People play multiplayer games not for some "fun". People play to be victorious, it maybe victory due to luck, skill, cheeze or in case of MMORPG - build. Of course build is only a part of victory, but build has huge impact on your efficiency both in PVP and endgame PVE (especially in PVE actually).

Not everyone plays for this reason. To Be The Best, min-max, be maximally efficient, etc - sure, that's the goal of some people, but I wouldn't generalize it to everyone playing a multiplayer game. (now, in a multiplayer pvp game, like Fortnite/Overwatch/DOTA? Yeah, sure - much higher percentage there.)

Or, to put it another way - not everyone is competitive. Especially in PvE MMOs. There's an awful lot of people just messing around out there.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Whelp, that's some bait.

At its roots, ESO isn't constantly changing because of elitists vs casuals, or any other "VS" match-up we can think up.

Its changing because of Horizontal Progression, which has been ZOS' perferred method since One Tamriel. Horizontal Progression, or to put less nicely "change for the sake of change" is how ZOS keeps the game from stagnating and becoming boring for most players, artificially extending the lifespan of the game with things to do like: Rework your build every patch! Regrind your gear to stay meta!

Hell, even the vertical progression MMOs that I've played would mess with things to keep it from getting stagnant. I played WoW from vanilla through Cataclysm, and the ups & downs my Hunter went through, even in between expansion releases, were like a yo-yo. I suppose the only major difference was in gear - vertical progression games generally have a line of 'endgame' sets that you go through, rather than ESO's giant collection of sets to switch between.

GallantGuardian

nsmurfer wrote: »

Yet most balance changes are done keeping this small population in mind. Also there is a big overlap between the PvE top players and PvP top players, resulting in further toxicity and elitism.

Most of the feedback we give on forums etc is basically useless as it is not considered at all.

I have to agree with that and a shiny example of this is

When it comes to pve tanking we can no longer double bar sword and shield and get full enchant benefits which I find completely unfair

And I believe it’s because the toxic elite likes this platstyle better specifically to get all tanks to back bar lightning staff for their raid groups ... to make it the “meta” in case they need a tank most tanks will be running this now due to them killing double sword and shield bars

Now if you use it you are “beginner tanking” nvm the fact that as a tank I don’t want to use a staff has nothing to do with being a beginner or not I’ve completed most content in this game not all but most ...

And now I’m being forced or shunned if I don’t comply unless I make my own group

Any time you suggest adding on with out readjusting anything on the sword and shield skill line just add on to one of its passives (doubles the enchantment when sword and shield is equipped) You get a bunch of people arguing you down and mocking you for not being happy with this new meta and wanting to have an option ...

Now not only do I have to use a weapon I don’t want to but I also have to remove potential abilities I’d rather use and am forced to place one staff ability on my back bar


Zos has ignored this and the elite like it ... so we don’t get to have it back the other way

buttaface

Agree with OP. ESO is like a Walmart, with Walmart type customers, not an insult, it's a mass market. Yet in this particular Walmart, half the aisles are filled with Neiman Marcus type luxury goods that few buy. This Walmart considers only marketing data from top 10% income buying habits, despite their average customer being below average income.

ESO is based on a successful SINGLE PLAYER RPG... so why on Earth is it constantly trying to shape itself into some elite FPS? It's the wrong market.

There will always be people filling IT offices, university and corporate IT departments, college dorms, all over the country, who take their video games a wee bit too seriously. That these types even -play- ESO instead of a truly competitive parkour/true aim shooting game tells us all we need to know about them. They want an ANGLE, and will exploit any angle they can get to "PWN" whether it's macros, broken things in the game, or outright cheats and exploits. Been this way since the very beginning of these games, since players dual box summoned in Shadowbane to never ever die. Same story, different time and game. I dislike these people intensely, but they aren't going anywhere.

How to fix?

1. In PvP, create a very simple 4 man team RANDOM, NO PREMADE, Arena ala GW1. 4v4, last man standing wins. In GW1, the random arena had a permanent insta queue. You loaded into fast, simple PvP, and other than exploiters, were never against a stacked deck. Players used this to LEARN the PvP system. Performance was great due to small size and simple maps. Learn the ropes there, then move on to team 4 man and 8 man PvP. DEVASTATINGLY SIMPLE, worked for years, one of the reasons GW1 was so solid and well-played. Hell is it still open? I don't know, was last I checked.

Simplify Cyrodiil and IC. No mazes, vast complicated maps, needless gank zone chokepoints, rather standardized mount speed, standardized character appearance. Performance skyrockets. Participation skyrockets. Players perceive the deck isn't stacked such that they need to form zergs (but some will form anyway of course). Stackable siege engines, simplify siege down to repair kits, rams and trebs. Worked just fine in Shadowbane, would work fine in ESO. First time in Cyro as a veteran PvPer from many games, first thought was "WTF with all these inventory-eating siege engine types? WTF with the nonstandardized mount speed and huge, complicated maps in an RVR with no real consequences for win/loss and no true guild controlled assets? WTF generally? Meh." Imagine what a total newb to PvP would think?

2. PvE, strip out all the "gotcha" type mechanics from ALL normal dungeons and over half of vet. Leave those only in a few of the tougher DLCs and in trials. The average MMO player does not enjoy having to watch a youtube video and keep 100 bosses straight as to "which pad to stand on, which lever to pull, what can be blocked, interrupted, what must be dodged" to do a DUNGEON. Save that *** for trials and the relative FEW who enjoy it. Develop the REST of the game for the erstwhile Skyrim players who comprise the ACTUAL POPULATION OF THIS FACTUALLY CASUAL VIDEO GAME.

I am surprised that no investors in this company have put the hammer down on this vast disconnect between what the game is and what it is trying to be. It is likely costing them MILLIONS of earnings.

Iskiab

Well one thing is I put my builds up on the forums for Cyrodiil. Most don’t. This is where casual players really start falling behind because the game is really complicated. That’s a great thing, I love complication, but I think people need to share the good stuff and not be afraid it’ll bring down the nerf hammer.

Half a year ago people said everyone was wearing the same sets, based on BG and solo specs. Those don’t work in group combat.

I think it’s helped pugs too. I think pugs are a lot stronger after seeing the kinds of things you can do. It just takes time to learn the ropes in this game, a lot of time.

Raideen

buttaface wrote: »

I am surprised that no investors in this company have put the hammer down on this vast disconnect between what the game is and what it is trying to be. It is likely costing them MILLIONS of earnings.

Possibly because they are transitioning to cash grab mode? (as evident of the ever increasing crown store prices, even as the player base declines).

xeha_arwen11

I agree with the original post of this thread so much that I felt like I had written it myself.
Well said, nsmurfer. There are a few more things I'd like to add, but it'll have to be some other time because I'm really tired.

Just wanted to say you've done a very good job explaining what is going on.

starkerealm

VaranisArano wrote: »

Whelp, that's some bait.

At its roots, ESO isn't constantly changing because of elitists vs casuals, or any other "VS" match-up we can think up.

Its changing because of Horizontal Progression, which has been ZOS' perferred method since One Tamriel. Horizontal Progression, or to put less nicely "change for the sake of change" is how ZOS keeps the game from stagnating and becoming boring for most players, artificially extending the lifespan of the game with things to do like: Rework your build every patch! Regrind your gear to stay meta!

Hilarious observation here, about the only thing that ZOS slaps down are the meta builds. Some other stuff gets hit, occasionally, but for the most part, idiots will rally around a build and say, "no, bro, this is the only way you can play, everything else is trash."

Then, ZOS sees that, goes, "wait, we don't want the game to be one of those ones where there is only one option," so they nerf it. Then the metasheep start crying, running around, and wailing, "what will we do!? What will we do!? ZOS nerfs everything until we can't play anymore! Oh, hey, Alcast just posted a new, broken, build let's use that!"

In five years, running off meta, I've never had a build completely invalidated by a patch. I've taken a few hits, but this, "you must start from scratch every patch," crap? I've never experienced that.

Uviryth

Well said, I couldnt agree more.
1vsX (or Small Group vs. Large Group)-Gameplay was always the cancer of WPvP, eversince Dark Age of Camelot. Those idiots always think they have so much skill when really they are just exploiting mechanics to ruin as many peoples fun as possible. Plus the players actually playing the game as its intended are always called "Zergers", as if thats an insult.

Veterancontent in ESO is completely out of whack. I never seen anything like it in any mmo. There are Dungeons you literally cant clear if your not a dedicated PvEgroup doing the same dungeon over and over again.

hregrin

nsmurfer wrote: »

It is a very similar scene in PvE with a select few groups on top, which are only ones capable of completing the hardest content while the absolute majority can't even do most vet dungeons. The top guilds mostly doesn't do anything to help average players, so there is no advancement in majority of the playerbase.

You know, I always love when people have opinions without understanding how whatever they're talking about works.

You seem to think the world is clearly divided between casuals and elite with a wide gap between them, the latter overlooking the former with disdain. Well let me tell you something: you know nothing, John Snow.

The PvE community is way more diverse and permeable than you think.

On top are the elite groups. Hodor, Mechanically Challenged and the likes. They are the trailblazers. They will clear the hardest content faster than anyone because they are highly competitive players who put a lot of time and dedication towards understanding how the game works. And they do it because that's how they like to play. Because you don't find that way of playing fun doesn't mean that's everyone's case. Some of them are also content creators. Think Alcast, Liko, Stilleanima,... They do not make the meta, mind you. ZoS does. But they have a deep enough understanding of the game's systems that they are able to find out pretty quick what's the most efficient way to do things. And that's what elite groups are about: efficiency.

Then right behind them, you have high level groups. They tryhard content and they end up clearing it, although not as quickly as the elite groups. Most of the players in these groups are made of people who played together in lower level groups and group with likeminded people of a comparable skill level. They often have some spots open for players that haven't reached their skill level yet, but that are willing to put in time and dedication to get better. Most of these groups play together one or two nights a week and spend the rest of their time in progression guilds, often acting as raid lead for the top groups of said guilds.

Then you have progression guilds. That's where I roam. We usually take on players starting at level 50 and teach people how to do trials and harder dungeons, starting with normal difficulty and ramping up to veteran and some hardmodes. These guilds are often organised in rosters based on skill and understanding of the mechanics. More advanced players teach and lead beginners. We teach the players that will at some point join the high level groups, and eventually the elite groups (which is not the case of everyone, mind you - everyone is free to decide how and when they want to play).

And finally you have the casual guilds, who will do some normal trials and the occasional easy veteran. These are more laid back with people doing it for fun without trying to optimize their gameplay. Which is a perfectly valid way to play.

At every step of this ladder, there are players who give back to the community, by helping people understand the game better, teaching them mechanics, creating content designed to help "average players" get better. And at every step of this ladder, there will be toxic players spitting on others, be it because they're noobs or because they're elitists, often without realizing that they were noobs once too, or that people who are better put in time and dedication because that's how they like to play.

If you want to get better, at some point it's on you to find the right group to do it. We can't reach out to every single player asking them what their goals are. And the top guilds' role isn't to "help average players" (even though some players do by creating content aimed at average players). Their role is to help players right behind them reach higher, and so on. So yeah, if you reach out to Hodor while not being able to do anything harder than Craglorn trials, you'll hit a wall. And rightly so. If you want to get better, do it one step at a time.

And you know the funny thing in all this? People at every skill level feel the impact of the sledgehammer nerfs. Every single group will be set back. And this is where your argument is deeply flawed. It's not about casuals vs. elitists. We're in it together.

themaddaedra

Hmmm catering to elites you say? Very, like very interesting claim. I've been a part of endgame community in PC EU for very long years and no mate, we're most definitely not the ones who zos is catering to.

Seriously, i know most of endgame pve players, i'm in most guilds' discords and people don't even talk about skills and classes at all. Almost all of the complaining is about performance if any. Because endgamers don't stop playing when the meta changes, they just change their skills/classes and move on. That's what i do, that's what my friends (the very few who are remaining) do.

Only thing you are right about is that we are a very small minority of the community, and we become smaller and smaller every update. Cheers.

Uryel

OP seems to have forgotten one important reason for nerfs : change in team lead at ZOS.

As with every new boss in every business around the world, new boss has to pee in the 4 corners of the room to mark their territory and prove they're the boss. So of cours0e they change things that needn't be changed for the sake of changing them and proving they can. That's how Bosmers losty their stealth, for instance. Officially because "people couldn't tell the difference between Khajiit and Bosmer". My arse, people have been able to tell the difference for 25 years now.

Sometimes, a change is just a "new boss" thing.

Grianasteri

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

People play multiplayer games not for some "fun".

You heard it here first folks... we don't play computer games for fun...

Ps, I do.

Grianasteri

OneForSorrow wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Whelp, that's some bait.

At its roots, ESO isn't constantly changing because of elitists vs casuals, or any other "VS" match-up we can think up.

Its changing because of Horizontal Progression, which has been ZOS' perferred method since One Tamriel. Horizontal Progression, or to put less nicely "change for the sake of change" is how ZOS keeps the game from stagnating and becoming boring for most players, artificially extending the lifespan of the game with things to do like: Rework your build every patch! Regrind your gear to stay meta!

Now, who determines what changes are going to happen each patch varies. That's where all the elitists vs casuals, raid vs small scale, and PVE vs PVP stuff comes in. Oh, and PVE power creep vs end game content. Plus there's the Devs to consider, and the Devs Do What They Want.

But that doesnt alter the fact ZOS is always going to change up something. They have to. Its their only real method of progression since One Tamriel. Ultimately, that's WHY the Devs are constantly changing stuff every update.

We definitely need more vertical progression. Some really challenging zones would be nice, where you shouldn't go until you're actually powerful.

More Craglorns.

Ive been arguing we need more challenging zones, or challenging areas IN zones, for ages. I think it is high time we had a 2nd Craglorn type area, focused on group play with far more difficult adds and bosses, a veteran zone if you will.

Nerftheforums

You made so many assumptions that even your assumptions made assumptions.

Juhasow

ZoS is catering to 1vXers ? That is wierd because throughout the years amount of 1vX and small scale in Cyrodill/IC dropped down to the brink of exctinction.

chris211

Juhasow wrote: »

ZoS is catering to 1vXers ? That is wierd because throughout the years amount of 1vX and small scale in Cyrodill/IC dropped down to the brink of exctinction.

yep currently the game is catering to players who dont have thumbs

Coatmagic

Not reading through all this crap, assuming someone has already pointed out that the ACTUAL reason is

because ZoS refuses to split PvP and PvE.

Anyone who believes otherwise, needs to pull their heads out.

kylewwefan

What are the vast majority doing that makes them so bad in the first place? Build, Food, skills, class, race, mundus, cp? Doing PvP and PVE on same character because the game is advertised as “play how you want” or any other number of reasoning.

Maybe it’s from trying to play the game intuitively? (Like Skyrim)

you could wear heavy armor, swing some giant greatsword around, and cast magic skills from your finger tips feeling godlike, destroying any enemy that so much as looked at you the wrong way.

ESO is far removed from that.

Turn on some combat numbers and you see that wrecking blow hit some mob for 20k+ and executioner nail that world boss for nearly 40k Damage. Soul assault tool tips shows it does 67k damage over 29 seconds. Gotta get some of that!

They figure I must be doing 50k DPS with this.

You don’t realize how bad this stuff is. Until you find them in the vet daily group finder que.

Doesn’t matter what the devs change. Most people don’t care. They’ve given up hope to do vet dlc a long time ago. Hear about these changes that supposed to make us so much stronger now, yet don’t see it.

People freaking out about Nerfs. Most people don’t give a rip. I could care less.

Just trying to complete content. I don’t need to set any score. Maybe PC leaderboards are competitive. Console is so totally not. Outside of a top 3, everything else is not even close.

So you may be on to something. Catering to this small minority is preventing many others from even entering the door.

Bobby_V_Rockit

I can see the OP’s point, I mean, why is the majority of players and subscribers funding content so difficult that only 36 ppl out of the “10 million” can do?

Seems like they should mayhaps be finding the middle ground a bit more, the majority average folks are their bread and butter.

buttaface

Hey folks, calling something you don't like "bait" isn't an argument, just makes you look trite and foolish. And many of the defensive replies here are perfect Q.E.D. illustrations that OP is on the money.

This game is never going to be a candidate for "serious bidness" Esports, yet it is being misdesigned as if it is. At the very least, they need to create several bridges between casual, easy content and "harder" content. As it is, there is a gaping maw between the basic game and the high end, with mostly nothing in between. A successful game needs to have a smoother progression from start to top end, not just $5 and $5000 blackjack tables, but $20 and $100 also, and with a few tweaks, this game could have that.

As aggressive as they are in certain aspects of their revenue model, why they leave so many $$ on the table is inexplicable.

BaiterOfZergs

Lol

JumpmanLane

nsmurfer wrote: »

The ridiculous changes over the last few patches can be explained largely by split feedback.

The eso community is split into two wildly different categories. Contrary to popular belief, it is not exactly the PvE vs PvP camp. It is actually the vast majority who play for fun and enjoyments vs a select group of toxic elitists who are the vocal minority. Before anyone flames me, let me explain.

In PvP, the vast majority of players play to enjoy the social aspect. They have fun participating with what ever their faction is doing, be it taking keeps, large scale fights and be it bantering in zone chat or whatever. They dont complain about zergs, tank meta or overpowered skills etc. They recognize the fact that just because a class or skill is better in some way than others, it does not make it overpowered and if they find a class more fun than the rest, they switch to it. They dont care that TTK is high nor do they camplain about large scale faction wars(apart from performance issues). They prefer faction locks so that factions have a real meaning.

On the other hand are the 1vXers and small scalers. They are easily the most toxic and elitist group in the game. They play purely to kill and humiliate others in whatever way possible and thereby "expose zerglings". They intentionally abuse broken builds creating the balance problems in the first place and then call for things to be nerfed. Anything remotely defensive that people use to defend against them will get nerfed to appease them, be it sets like Pirate Skeleton, Malubeth, brass, protective or skills like shields, healing ward etc. They will lobby to get any kind of group utility removed from skills like Backlash just make their playstyle easier. They intentionally overlook the fact that 1vX play by definition is possible due to massive balance issue which they ignore because it favours them. These players abuse everything from macros for automated animation cancelling, scripts or exploits etc for their playstyle. This was highly evident in the IC event, they spawn camped faction bases killing players before they can react, even using the lift exploit in cases. Their constant abuse of broken mechanics to kill players and constant trolling/griefing both in the IC event and in Cyrodiil is a major source of griefing for the majority of the playerbase in general. A big number are also streamers, who often troll etc just for clout and epeen.

It is a very similar scene in PvE with a select few groups on top, which are only ones capable of completing the hardest content while the absolute majority can't even do most vet dungeons. The top guilds mostly doesn't do anything to help average players, so there is no advancement in majority of the playerbase. On the contrary majority of them are super toxic and are involved in shady practices like selling carries for skins/loots/clears for huge amounts of gold. Yet most balance changes are done keeping this small population in mind. Also there is a big overlap between the PvE top players and PvP top players, resulting in further toxicity and elitism.

Most of the feedback we give on forums etc is basically useless as it is not considered at all. The feedback that is taken is limited exclusively to discords like the class discords, top raid guild discords and private feedback given directly to devs and class reps. These discords are filled with elitists and to have any voice there, you need to show that you belong by being a toxic elitist 1vXer or a vet dlc trial score holder. Otherwise any feedback you give will get shut down and you will get ruthless mocked, clowned and kicked. Even class reps are not immune from that as a certain sorc class rep got removed for being "fil*** casual". Average players have hardly any say on changes. Classes and skills get changed to suit the particular playstyles by the small minority.

This overlooks one very basic thing: SKILL. The game is balanced according to how the very top players approach the game. The best theorycrafters figure out things ZOS just can’t conceive because they don’t play the game often enough or on a high enough level.

Only people who are embarrassed by dying, think better players in the game are being toxic or trying to humiliate someone when they kill people.

Just relax and find what fun you can at the game. Yet, remember this. If you approach something like pvp casually and you face someone who approaches it VERY seriously, expect to die.

Quite specifically, if you run a crap build, don’t min max, don’t learn to animation cancel, don’t learn to line of sight, don’t learn to kite, you’re gonna get mopped...and those who took the time to learn to play the game well should not be castigated because for WHATEVER reason you chose not to.

Just saying. Good luck.

ZOS_RogerJ

Greetings! As we've removed or edited some posts, please keep the discussion civil, constructive and on-topic.

Nyladreas

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

In my opinion the actual toxicity is coming from the casuals who can't understand why they keep dying in PVP. Why wasn't this post shut down anyhow? Calling out Veteran players and calling them "toxic elitists". Because Zos caters to the casual majority in this game.

Cause casuals don't complain. It's usually the elitist mindset that does the complaining. It doesn't necessarily have to be a successful elitist mindset. Actually worse if it's not, as that provokes more rage.

Shantu

Aerenel wrote: »

I'm curious what the proposed solution would be anyways. Tell good pvpers to go easy on weak ones? Force top raid teams to carry incapable people during their core times? This all reads as someone who is just mad that other people are good at a game.

One solution would be to stop busting skills by 30-60% every patch. And I don't mind if a very small minority of people are good at the game. It's when such huge changes are made because of them.

Soella

Forum posts/discord/twitch/whatever is only one source of feedback. Internal statistics - what builds are used by different group of players, average played time before leaving/pausing, kill time on bosses, sets used, average DPS depending on time played - all that and a lot more is main feedback player base provides. Pretty much a game is as good as ability of game designers to analyze that feedback, not toxic forum posts.

NBrookus

If you are constantly being bombarded with toxic behavior, you may want to look at your own behavior and what you are doing, or who you are associating with. If the people you are playing with are not supportive of you growing as a player -- whatever that growth is for you -- find different people to play with. And BE that person.

This game has a ton of content. Not all of it will be for YOU.