Veteran content Loot / Skin / Achievement Sales problem

hasi · October 2019

Honestly, I've been at a Point, where I had no Raiding Guild.
It was very frustrating to see your friends do HM Content and not even considering to ask whether you could join or not.(Especially as they needed a Player.)
But in the end I did find a Guild, which took me although I was missing X and Y Requirements. They didn't regret.❤

In their free time my Guildies do Carry Runs and they do badly need it. With 4 Million Gold I am by far the richest of us all, the others often sit on 50k or 100. Golding out Raid Gear for several Characters, Potions etc. is expensive.

So nope, leave the Game how it is right now.
After all, if you are investing your time with PvE Endgame, you usually know who got carried and who not. And most of the time it's People, who own Trading Guilds or are just simply rich. So they might aswell give some Gold to the poor.😉

rotaugen454 · October 2019

My phone battery died before I managed to scroll to the end of the Russian novel length OP.

SidraWillowsky · October 2019

This is going to sound flippant, but I don't mean for it to...

I'm sorry that that happened to you, OP. It sounds like it was greatly distressing for you, and something that you play for fun shouldn't cause you that level of grief. That said... there are SO many fantastic guilds out there. I've currently got four that I couldn't be happier with, and they're full of great people and no drama. This is where the flippant part comes in... find another guild? I've been through some duds but seriously, they're out there and running progression runs with no elitism or anything. They've welcomed me with open arms and were happy to allow me to run progression runs and have been super understanding as I work to get the hang of things.

I don't know much about the side of the game where people pay for achievements, but I DO think they're a good way for people who JUST want the skins to get them without suffering through a million vSS runs (that skin is cool as hell btw).

And I'm super sorry- I honestly couldn't get through your whole post. But if you're still interested in progression yourself, have you checked Guild Fair Friday on Reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/

Or the subreddit dedicated to finding a guild? It's linked in the sidebar of the subreddit.

magictucktuck · October 2019

I don't necessarily take issue with the practice, but I take issue with the elitism.

that being said wtf were you doing raiding with these people for years?

they are hundreds of prog trials guilds out there looking for a decent tank. So it really sounds like all your complaints are on you and could have been avoided easily.

I'm in a great raiding guild now and we sometimes have to spend extra time for one person who just isn't getting it. but we have completed every dlc trial in less than 3, 1.5 hour attempts, for the first clear. After that none take over and hour. and there are ton of groups just like us. I suggest just finding new friends, instead of sticking with a bunch of high school kids?

BXR_Lonestar · October 2019

Honestly, this is going to sound a lot more harsh than its intended to be, but I really don't see much of a problem with things as they are.

First off, its the internet, its a game, and there are always going to be elitist keyboard warriors protected by a measure of anonymity. So if people doing stupid stuff upsets you, hurts your feelings, makes you feel bad about yourself, and makes you want to quit the game, then the problem is how your handling the situation. Sure, you SHOULD expect people to behave better but that's just not today's internet reality.

And if you've completed vet runs of the trial, then you are obviously well schooled in the mechanics. You don't NEED to join an elitist group to do the vet content to get the skin. You could take your knowledge and pass it on to other players by forming your own group of people who are more like minded. Sure, it'll take time to bring everyone up to speed - which is why more people don't do this kind of thing - but what else is there to play for once you've maxed out your CP and you've perfected your builds?

ForzaRammer · October 2019

do you really need to write over 5 paragraph? and the worse part is, why is there over 5 poll options, when you just need 'yes' 'no' 'unsure'

Nebthet78 · October 2019

I'd rather see skins come in a Runebox that can be sold in guild stores, therefore cutting off the need to sell carries that lessen the actual achievement of working towards completing the dungeon equally with your peers.

Thannazzar · October 2019

Personally I'd rather have an influence or token system for cosmetics ie run the trial/dungeon on hard mode once, vet 5 times or normal 25 times to get the cosmetic unlocked.

Better yet put the cosmetic on normal and have decent progression gear rewards attached to challenging content that enable those who like the challenge to progress in a meaningful way.

ThisOnePosts · October 2019

I voted Other.

I think people should be "allowed" within reason to make such arrangements, however if ZOS makes the content more accessible to those without static learning groups, etc... it will seriously diminish the carry-sellers (who spam chat over and over btw,) profit.

Also the best skins/titles/pets/mounts from such content should be attainable via some Solo-mode version of it where you get some NPC followers or w/e -- they can be more creative than they currently are that's for sure!

This would at least allow people to experience the stories, gain what they need, etc... without having to pay. I'm someone who figures stuff out for myself, tests my own builds, wrecks havoc in PvX, helps people just to help them, and think the carry-selling is hurting actual groups being formed more than anything.

So yes, ZOS needs to do something. However they have an opportunity to create a new way to approach content with doing "something" about it and while still leaving the option open for the truly and utterly lazy lol.

Thannazzar · October 2019

Would rather see a system of tokens or influence, ie do a trial/dungeon on hard mode once, vet 5 times or normal 25 times to get the cosmetic unlocked.

Better yet put the cosmetic on normal and have decent progression gear rewards attached to challenging content that enable those who like the challenge to progress in a meaningful way.

gatekeeper13 · October 2019

I got "cyber-bullied" too, once and in a very bad way. You re not the only one. Because I am red-green color blind, I had trouble seeing the aoe field in Weeping Woman in vet DoM (first run) and died 2-3 times. The healer harassed me badly and ofc I was kicked from group. Couldnt understand the reason why I had failed so misserably since I was good at tanking, then watched a DoM guide by Xynode. In the video, I noticed that he used a different color for the aoe field and suddenly all seemed pretty clear to me. Joined a pug again the next day and guess what? In the group, there was the same healer again. He started calling me names, asked for the other members to kick me but one dd refused. Passed Scavenging Maw easily again, then went to Weeping Woman. This time, the boss fight was a piece of cake and didnt die once because with a different color, the aoe field was clearly visible. But no, the healer wouldnt stop. Till the completion of the dungeon, (although I didnt die once) he kept harassing me, asking me to get cancer, to die, he dissed my family and he just wouldnt stop. Every single second I had my chatbox filled with curses, insults and hate speech. And this sociopath is still in the game, probably harassing other people.

It was the last time I did a vet DLC dungeon with a pug. After that, I joined some guilds and now do dlc dungeon runs only with guildmates.

As for ZOS... There are hundreds of trash like that guy but the company wont give a damn... They will only claim how "nice and wonderful" this community is... Not saying there are no good guys. Most of the guys are nice but there is a pretty big number of toxic trash that gives the game a bad name.

Raisin · October 2019

@gatekeeper13 Honestly, while it is 100% on the healer to not be a ***... Even as a PUG, the group still really should've had your back and kicked that healer. Unless it was in whispers and they didn't know.

FakeFox · October 2019

Being a part of the raiding community for around four years or so, I did never experience anything negative in that regard. I was a part of multiple different carry groups and the leaders always acted fair and professional. I never saw people only doing carry runs or leaving the game after. Most endgame players I know do carry runs as a easy and fun way to finance their other raiding activities, housing or crown trading, but otherwise don't particularly care about money.
As a leader or officer in multiple raiding guild/groups I also barely encountered problems with players being carried. Players rarely try to abuse carry runs for getting into other raids and it is rather easy to find out if someone actually got carried or not. Carried players in general never caused me any issues, as the majority are PvP players or traders that just want certain gear or a cool looking skin, but have no interest in raiding otherwise.

I am sorry for you having such a bad experience. But just because some people have a bad experience with something does not mean that it is bad in general and needs to go. In the end you could have made similar experiences without carry runs being a thing as well. There are enough idiots in this game, just like anywhere else and it is on you to decide who you interact with.

gatekeeper13 · October 2019

Raisin wrote: »

@gatekeeper13 Honestly, while it is 100% on the healer to not be a ***... Even as a PUG, the group still really should've had your back and kicked that healer. Unless it was in whispers and they didn't know.

Nope, it wasnt whisper. It was visible by all group members.

The rest of the group didnt care because he was a good healer and they just wanted to complete the dungeon.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · October 2019

I’m an advocate of working towards goals. Too many people come to the forums asking for hand outs or things to be easier. An achievement isn’t much of an achievement if even the worst players who put no time into it can get it. If you got kicked from a group though, that’s sucks. Doesn’t sound fun. Challenge yourself to be better though so you won’t get kicked OR join another guild. That freedom is YOURS. Plenty of casual guilds out there.

However, devils advocate here. If someone wants to pay a stupid amount of gold (and really it’s stupid) they can. It’s better than ZoS catering towards whiners and making the game easier. If they spent weeks or months farming 6 million gold for some skin, then more power to them. A service is provided and someone is willing to pay for it AND it doesn’t affect you. Welcome to the free market.

Raisin · October 2019

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

@gatekeeper13 Honestly, while it is 100% on the healer to not be a ***... Even as a PUG, the group still really should've had your back and kicked that healer. Unless it was in whispers and they didn't know.

Nope, it wasnt whisper. It was visible by all group members.

The rest of the group didnt care because he was a good healer and they just wanted to complete the dungeon.

That's pretty damn sad. Again, it's not technically their fault... But watching someone get harassed to *** because you don't wanna queue for another 5 minutes is pretty gross.

El_Borracho · October 2019

I didn't think this was a selling runs problem. If someone wants to pay, someone will carry. I don't see that as a problem that needs to be solved. While I don't pay for carries, others do. Doesn't bother me.

Sounds like the bigger issue is that you ran with some real scumbags. Find better friends. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but I also can't understand how you stayed with them for 3 years despite them treating you like a doormat

LadyNalcarya · October 2019

No, please, we do not need any more rng-based mechanics, runeboxes that are split into 9000 different parts or anything like that. It's just a lazy way to add more replayability and it's much less fair than getting skins for completing a dungeon or trial.
Getting my vMA staff took me about 100 runs, I've never gotten any of the rare drops such as vAS polymorph or Aetheric Cipher, and if I'd have to grind for all cosmetic items, I'd rather quit. Rng is inherently unfair.

Honestly, I'm sorry that you've been bullied, it sounds like those people weren't your friends after all. But not all guilds are like this, and I hope that you will find a group that would respect you. There are many groups in need of experienced tanks, and I'm sure that they would welcome you. Or, alternatively, you can organize a group of your own, so that you will never be in this situation again.

However, carrying and training are two different things. Carry is essentially a service, and people who buy them usually aren't interested in pve progression for one reason or another (for example, pvpers or casual pvers). One cannot demand free services from strangers, so your example with a girl who wanted to get a carry as a birthday gift doesn't really prove anything. If I was a raid leader, I'd probably decline that too unless everyone in group wanted to do it.

A little off-topic: I feel like this whole thing with "good groups should carry others or they are bad people" sounds a bit like people who demand free services from artists/designers/whatever in exchange for "exposure", because "it's easy anyway so don't be a b*tch and make me a banner/draw a portrait of my SO/etc". Cyber bullying is toxic, but so is entitlement.

starkerealm · October 2019

@gatekeeper13, report players who do that. Don't just try to kick them from the group, actually go and report them for their behavior. That was so far out of line.

nordmarian · October 2019

I'm not really complaining about not getting paid, I was only stating out a situation that can occur. What made me feel bad was that I was in a team whom split the money unfairly and some did not received it. That caught me in the middle. Imagine yourself that you invite some good friends into your team and you get paid and they not. Drama. And second part was the fact that I was unable to raid with few of my good friends I've met through this game, whom got more interested into carry runs and less into raiding for progression scores and fun.

off topic:

As for getting replaced, yes, it happens everywhere, but what happened with me was that last year I was bullied, on my birthday, after only 2 raids on the PTS in a new trial for all of us. To make the situation worse, I was told in face that they simply used me because their other tank did not wanted to join the test server, and also conveniently enough for them I was bringing new people to the team. People whom I got split from and I was not able to raid with them anymore. People whom eventually left the game sooner or later and I miss them! They never gave me the chance to progress, improve, learn, and play with my friends, not even as a backup even if they had free spots. They rather invited some randoms or cancelled the raid. It is simply common sense that if a group of people whom are close friends come to you together, they both stay or leave. You do not split them! Toxic team behavior, not explaining and understanding that everyone need to learn and adapt a new content.

I was part of many end game teams whom took me as an applicant and I left without causing a scene or drama because people were much more clear from day one about how the things are going. You are joining for a trial period, you are trained, tested, evaluated, told about your mistakes in a very calm and polite way, and I could go on. I did had a raid team once whom were nicely enough to farm sets for me the day before the raid! Guided me step by step and told me the importance of staking adds in a certain way or playing a mechanic in a specific manner. Helped me farming certain gears from that trial as well etc.

And I was part of teams whom simply stated you are a bad tank, you are not doing x mechanic, but they did not know HOW to explain or HOW to help you to play that specific mechanic. There is one thing to tell your tank to "stack two adds" and a hole different thing to tell your tank where he should position himself, where he should move the adds and how, or explained mechanics in a much more understanding way.

Also, when two people whom had a problem in the past are meting eachother again they should simply move on, make peace with eachother and raid in peace together and not cause scenes like. I'm out. I don't want to play with x or y. Or replace this person from team causing drama.

LadyNalcarya · October 2019

nordmarian wrote: »

I'm not really complaining about not getting paid, I was only stating out a situation that can occur. What made me feel bad was that I was in a team whom split the money unfairly and some did not received it. That caught me in the middle. Imagine yourself that you invite some good friends into your team and you get paid and they not. Drama. And second part was the fact that I was unable to raid with few of my good friends I've met through this game, whom got more interested into carry runs and less into raiding for progression scores and fun.

off topic:

As for getting replaced, yes, it happens everywhere, but what happened with me was that last year I was bullied, on my birthday, after only 2 raids on the PTS in a new trial for all of us. To make the situation worse, I was told in face that they simply used me because their other tank did not wanted to join the test server, and also conveniently enough for them I was bringing new people to the team. People whom I got split from and I was not able to raid with them anymore. People whom eventually left the game sooner or later and I miss them! They never gave me the chance to progress, improve, learn, and play with my friends, not even as a backup even if they had free spots. They rather invited some randoms or cancelled the raid. It is simply common sense that if a group of people whom are close friends come to you together, they both stay or leave. You do not split them! Toxic team behavior, not explaining and understanding that everyone need to learn and adapt a new content.

I was part of many end game teams whom took me as an applicant and I left without causing a scene or drama because people were much more clear from day one about how the things are going. You are joining for a trial period, you are trained, tested, evaluated, told about your mistakes in a very calm and polite way, and I could go on. I did had a raid team once whom were nicely enough to farm sets for me the day before the raid! Guided me step by step and told me the importance of staking adds in a certain way or playing a mechanic in a specific manner. Helped me farming certain gears from that trial as well etc.

And I was part of teams whom simply stated you are a bad tank, you are not doing x mechanic, but they did not know HOW to explain or HOW to help you to play that specific mechanic. There is one thing to tell your tank to "stack two adds" and a hole different thing to tell your tank where he should position himself, where he should move the adds and how, or explained mechanics in a much more understanding way.

Also, when two people whom had a problem in the past are meting eachother again they should simply move on, make peace with eachother and raid in peace together and not cause scenes like. I'm out. I don't want to play with x or y. Or replace this person from team causing drama.

This sounds horrible to be honest. If people tell you in your face that they're just using you etc, then you should just leave and forget them. And if your "friends" didnt object to that, then they are not your friends. Again, I'm sorry that you had to deal with all of this, but there's literally no reason to be in a group that treated you like this. This is not the norm in the community and you shouldn't put up with this even if you really want skins/titles/whatever.
There are still training guilds, even though the endgame community nowadays is smaller than it used to be. Nothing justifies toxicity, but raid leaders are free to set requirements for their trials, and if they only want experienced players, it's their choice.

nordmarian · October 2019

Also I still think it will be very nice to have a counter on how many times we cleared a specific content. That will actually show a player skill in front of someone who did a new content hard mode, whom might got carried or not.

luen79rwb17_ESO · October 2019

TL;DR stopped at 2017..

OMG the walls of text are real in this thread.

If people are willing to pay for a skin I don't see the problem honestly. There are plenty of progression / casual guilds where you are welcomed. Joining elitists is a choice.

LadyNalcarya · October 2019

nordmarian wrote: »

Also I still think it will be very nice to have a counter on how many times we cleared a specific content. That will actually show a player skill in front of someone who did a new content hard mode, whom might got carried or not.

Not a bad idea tbh, it could help us to keep track of farming runs. You'd know exactly how many runs it took to get a specific set or weapon.

IndianaJames7 · October 2019

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

I got "cyber-bullied" too, once and in a very bad way. You re not the only one. Because I am red-green color blind, I had trouble seeing the aoe field in Weeping Woman in vet DoM (first run) and died 2-3 times. The healer harassed me badly and ofc I was kicked from group. Couldnt understand the reason why I had failed so misserably since I was good at tanking, then watched a DoM guide by Xynode. In the video, I noticed that he used a different color for the aoe field and suddenly all seemed pretty clear to me. Joined a pug again the next day and guess what? In the group, there was the same healer again. He started calling me names, asked for the other members to kick me but one dd refused. Passed Scavenging Maw easily again, then went to Weeping Woman. This time, the boss fight was a piece of cake and didnt die once because with a different color, the aoe field was clearly visible. But no, the healer wouldnt stop. Till the completion of the dungeon, (although I didnt die once) he kept harassing me, asking me to get cancer, to die, he dissed my family and he just wouldnt stop. Every single second I had my chatbox filled with curses, insults and hate speech. And this sociopath is still in the game, probably harassing other people.

It was the last time I did a vet DLC dungeon with a pug. After that, I joined some guilds and now do dlc dungeon runs only with guildmates.

As for ZOS... There are hundreds of trash like that guy but the company wont give a damn... They will only claim how "nice and wonderful" this community is... Not saying there are no good guys. Most of the guys are nice but there is a pretty big number of toxic trash that gives the game a bad name.

Some of these stories of toxic players harassing strangers are really mind blowing to me. I’ve put an insane amount of hours into this game and only ever come across one person that I would consider to be full board ‘toxic’, and even then it seemed to be a lower level likely wow refugee.

Players like the one you have discussed should 100% be reported. It is unlikely that your individual report will have any effect on ZOS, but chances are if they are that big of a pos to you they are probably that way to others as well. If ZOS recieves numerous reports of the same player from different players over different incidents, maybe they would look at taking action against them.

Araneae6537 · October 2019

Raisin wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

@gatekeeper13 Honestly, while it is 100% on the healer to not be a ***... Even as a PUG, the group still really should've had your back and kicked that healer. Unless it was in whispers and they didn't know.

Nope, it wasnt whisper. It was visible by all group members.

The rest of the group didnt care because he was a good healer and they just wanted to complete the dungeon.

That's pretty damn sad. Again, it's not technically their fault... But watching someone get harassed to *** because you don't wanna queue for another 5 minutes is pretty gross.

It is absolutely their fault if they stand by and say nothing! At the least someone should have told the healer to stop or be kicked. And if the majority of the players were too selfish to care, those with some conscience should have left the group.

I’m sorry that happened to you, @gatekeeper13 I have zero tolerance for disrespect or worse whether directed toward myself or other players. It hasn’t happened often and most of the time dropping from group or kicking is sufficient but behavior such as you describe warrants reporting.

xeha_arwen11 · October 2019

I could write a book replying to the original poster, but I'm tired, so I'm just going to say a couple of things.

Veteran trial guilds have some of the most toxic people in the entire game. The toxicity is beyond measure. It is absolutely unacceptable. I was part of a guild that had several members who part of another guild that was working towards vet trials. Every time they finished working on a trial, they would tell me their toxic horror stories.

Any vet trial guild that tries to stop people from legitimately clearing vet trials so that the corrupt guild can profit off them is WRONG. You were treated quite badly, and I'm sorry about that.

A unfortunate side effect of people selling skins and titles is that those things lose all meaning in general. I've had a lot of people in my guilds get a vet dlc helm or a vet trial title and they were so happy. It was a nice thing to see. But it's just sad that there's no way to know if a person did something legitimately or not ever since everything became a commodity in this game.

Etc.

Kiralyn2000 · October 2019

"Guild drama" and groups being elitist %$*# is annoying, sure. But it's not inextricably linked to paid trial runs. Two different topics.

If your Guild or your trial group suck and are mean to you, find someone else. Why put up with crap like that for a game?

Meanwhile, I've got no problem with people selling runs. If they're good enough to do the run with one less person, more power to them. I certainly remember Raid Guilds in vanilla WoW selling spots in their 'farm' raids, in order to fund their attempts at progression raids. No big deal. It's been a part of MMOing since long before f2p, "p2w", and any of that other stuff. /shrug

Linaleah · October 2019

rng is a terrible way to structure rewards. imagine having to go through all the effort to learn a fight, execute it perfectly... and not get rewarded for it? no, absolutely NOT.

moreover, clears SHOULD reward nice achievements, because for most people even clears can be difficult, let alone getting meta achievements done.

achievements are NOT easy and NOT fast. that is why groups that can do them - can sell them in a first place. if they were easy and fast to do, there would be no demand for carry runs.

carries being sold is a tradition that existed in MMO's long LONG before ESO came anywhere near the market. carries are NOT a problem. the fact that this game has one of the widest skill gaps on the market due to the way combat is structured - THAT is a problem. and no, you can NOT fix that with rng, rng will only make the situation WORSE.

Recent · October 2019

Endgame is toxic. I noticed more run sales being advertised on zone chat since wow people came over here and started clearing end content. That was always going on in wow and to bring it to eso.....cant get away from toxic players.
Game communities are just a reflection of our society in the real world where greed is out of control.