Veteran content Loot / Skin / Achievement Sales problem

nordmarian

Hello everyone,

I wanted to come forward with something that in my opinion is affecting overall MMO balance, performance, stability and causes a lot of drama among players in the long game and that is Veteran Content Loot / Skin sales. To clarify one thing with everyone. Skins, loot and achievements are considered an in game item which can be sold for gold or other items. I'm only stating out that this business is affecting the fairplay and gameplay as people are more or less motivated to play multiplayer content when they can earn a lot of gold in doing so.

Here are some facts which I personally encountered in the last few years.

in 2016 I was promoted and invited as an off tank for a core team which was progressing through vMOL. Despite the fact I had no experience and I was taught how to do my job, cleared every raid with better and better scores and I improved I still got kicked in the end (not asked to leave), Then for several months or even years I got bullied that I got carried or told that my performances were horrible in that particular trial and future ignored taking to that particular raid with several raiding teams as people considered I was not good enough. Only few gave me the chance back then and they weren't regretting.

Back in 2017, a friend of mine left this game after she could not get a chance to join a vMOL training group as a birthday gift I wanted to offer towards her with the help of some of my friends. Main reason for that was the greed of some end game players whom we even raided together which asked both of us for a considerable amount of gold for "a carry" despite the fact I already cleared and I was experienced with that trial. Neither of us agreed and she decided to leave the game among with her boyfriend, causing me grief. Everyone made fun of me on that matter which it was nothing but cyber bullying.

In 2018 I was caught myself into this unfair business on several occasions which I didn't enjoyed because.
- I wasn't paid, or i was paid less because I wasn't part of the group or because people considered I got carried as well, despite the fact I already progressed through that raid before.
- I feel I earned something unfairly because I never progressed enough through a certain dungeon or trial.
- Me, or other team members were paid less than others, GM keeping for himself a little too extra.
- We did not split the gold with everyone from the team which you can imagine the drama.
- Profiting from people less experienced instead of teaching them feels wrong.
- I was left behind because I wasn't good enough.
- Me and my friends got ripped off by having certain runs sabotaged on purpose to steal our money.

2018, 2019 People I used to play with quit or stopped playing or raiding with me for same reason.
- Learn to play issue is out of question. I'm not the best player out there but I am far from the worst. I am a bit sick lately which started to seriously affect my performances. (We are all humans).
- People do not enjoy doing veteran dungeons or trials anymore for 2-3 hours when they can earn few good millions from selling skins, loot and carry runs in some raids in just 30 minutes or less.
- People do not enjoy playing with someone for free whom did not cleared that specific content before, even if that player progressed through, nor joining progression guilds, when they can earn few good millions from selling skins, loot and carry runs.
- People do not invite you to raids because they do not want to split profit, or people fight too much to be in such teams.
- People get bored or tired for doing so many raids and quit or stop raiding playing.
- People become so rich they unlock everything possible and impossible in game and they lose interest, brag about or buy people out.
- People who earned some achievements fair cannot be distinguished anymore from people who bought their ways towards top.
- Often people whom bought achievements are taking priority in front of people with experience whom did not managed to clear that specific content yet, causing drama.

- Also a very dear friend of mine disappeared without a word earlier this year after some individuals decided it was better to not raid together in same team anymore for pretty much same reasons as above.

What do you guys think about this business after you read those facts?

What could be changed in the future based on those facts to bring back a fair balance and gameplay to ESO?

Unless skin loot or achievement sales are punishable offenses with can give people a ban if they broke this rule in the future after its implementation, few other solutions could be added.

Content must be designed and balanced better as follow:
- Length. Content must have a specific length in time on par with all other similar content. Here I am pointing out to few contents that are out of their place. vAS2 which consist in going straight for a 15 minutes end boss. vCR3, which consist in going straight for a 10 minutes end boss. vHOF with in happy cases it takes around one hour. vDSA which takes around same amount of time. What I'm trying to say here is that content such as vHOF are totally out of question for people when they can go to a much faster and or easier trial. Same goes for dungeons. from Fungal Grotto 1 to some of the DLC dungeons is a looong way.
- Difficulty wise. Why wasting time explaining endless mechanics in vhof when I can simply go to a raid in which mechanics are so much easier to explain and overall there are far less mechanics?
- Loot wise. Why going for vHOF when I can simply go to a newer trial and get loot with is at least 50% better?

ALSO!!!
- Skins. The way they should be obtained in the future should be based on RNG, achievements and fragments. Not by a simple completion run. This way everyone will get only a chance to get a skin runebox fragment, BOP, untradeable, and once you collect all fragments you can turn open the runebox containing the skin and or goodies. This will certainly push people more towards learning and less towards carrying.
- Achievements. There should be achievements for doing a certain content on a certain difficulty for at least 10 times and not just once to increase replayability of that specific content.

nordmarian

[forgot to add option] It push players away from game as they achieve everything too easy or too fast. And it should stop

Raideen

Other because many of the issues you described take place.

I have played wow since 2004 (and still play). I played Warhammer Online when it came out, SWTOR on and off for many years, GW2, Rift, and probably some I am forgetting (its late...tired).
I have experienced elitist jerks in all of them but if I had to rank them by personal experience it would be ESO first as far as the most elitist people I come across in Trials/Vets/PvP. I would rank SWTOR next, then WOW, then Warhammer.

Funny thing is, on the ESO Stream last night, the dev was saying how welcoming and open arms this community is. I just sat there and shook my head, because the very design of the game allows for this elitism. The games that does not allow for it are the games you see it less in.

I know I come across brash, brutal on the forums, its just how I type. People often read emotion into my posts that does not actually exist, it always makes me laugh. But I have always worked my best to foster a fun environment for everyone when in game. I have never once considered myself better than someone around me, and in fact if they are showing signs of being new, I will silently take them under my wing. I do the same when I am running around in game. If a low level starts following me while I blow stuff up, I slow down to their pace and try to let them tag everything, sometimes I will invite them.

When the system, much like you described, allows for a select few to exert their dominance over others in the ways you described...well in many cases its bad game design that allows for it.

BeamsForDemacia

LoL, i only hear alot of crying: Im too bad to join better groups and get rejected, there are tons of different progress groups out there just to get clears in the trials, everyone can find one dunno how ppl say i cant get into groups , wow if u were declined by one join another, and nothing needs to be changed , carrys are not unfair cuz its free decision from client to take the service or not

Canned_Apples

I don't trust those services.

Dusk_Coven

Even if they got it "legitimately" and not part of a buying-a-title-run they might still have been carried.
So you still can't trust titles.

nordmarian wrote: »

Then for several months or even years I got bullied that I got carried or told that my performances were horrible in that particular trial and future ignored taking to that particular raid with several raiding teams as people considered I was not good enough.

This sounds like reportable behavior. Did you report and was there any outcome?
Sounds like you got involved with toxic people.

Jhalin

If a group is capable of completing trials/dungeons/what have you one person down, then there's no reason to punish them using their skill to make extra gold.

Some people are toxic, but especially in the case of your friend, that really was a carry you were asking for, and those guild mates weren't out of line to ask for payment.

The endgame community shrinks with every terrible balance change, and putting up with those far behind the learning curve for free just because their familiar group has left isn't required of them. It may not be the answer you want, and you can blame the endgame community issue on that, rather than the changes ZOS has made to skill floors and ceilings, and the way they balance endgame content around that ceiling rather than anything else, but it's not really an issue of people being greedy.


Also:

Skins. The way they should be obtained in the future should be based on RNG, achievements and fragments. Not by a simple completion run. This way everyone will get only a chance to get a skin runebox fragment, BOP, untradeable, and once you collect all fragments you can turn open the runebox containing the skin and or goodies. This will certainly push people more towards learning and less towards carrying.

Absolutely hell no do we need anything like that. That's a sht idea

Araneae6537

I am puzzled as to the solutions you suggest — How would RNG rewards be an improvement? Obviously the players you talk about, completely this content so quickly, will have no difficulty getting these rewards, while people who really want the reward but don’t want to repeat this content over and over will be in a worse position.

Unless raids work differently than any other activity in Elsweyr, no member of the group controls who gets what loot. Are you talking about how payment from other players for carrying them is divided? That does not seem like something ZOS should get involved in, anymore than they do guild dues or ranks — and there can be plenty of drama, hurt feelings and games exoduses over those kind of things, believe me. I haven’t experienced any of that in ESO, but having experienced it elsewhere, I have my own guidelines regarding what groups and guilds I will be a part of long term. To me it sounds like this is what you need to do. Surely you could find a group of like-minded individuals whom you could progress through this content together with? I’m sorry that you had a bad experience with the first group that you joined. Hopefully now you will have a better idea of what to look for and maybe things that need to be discussed before you invest a lot of time and energy in a group. It sounds to me like you are hanging with some... unkind people to put it politely, if they are deriding you for friends leaving the game and stuff. You don’t need that.

richo262

Sounds like a whole load of nothing to me.

I think ZOS should properly support it. Have a group setting that factors in a carry. If carry wants a skin, they put 1m gold in an escrow that gets divided among the group members upon earning a particular achievement. Valid for 24 hours.

If everybody in the group thought you were a carry, you probably were.

There is absolutely 0 issue in an experienced group offering a service to a less experienced player for gold. Nobody put a gun to their head, the less experienced player gains experience, and possibly a skin, the experienced group dedicates their time. I hate to break it to you, but this is how the world generally works.

I buy bread from an experienced baker because they are far better at bread baking than me, I own up to that fact and am humbled by it, the baker does not take advantage of me simply because the bread I'd make would look and tastes like a house brick.

The_Old_Goat

Here's a simple solution, quit that drama and go guild shopping. Seriously, why endure that kind of drama for so long.

Araneae6537

Raideen wrote: »

Other because many of the issues you described take place.

I have played wow since 2004 (and still play). I played Warhammer Online when it came out, SWTOR on and off for many years, GW2, Rift, and probably some I am forgetting (its late...tired).
I have experienced elitist jerks in all of them but if I had to rank them by personal experience it would be ESO first as far as the most elitist people I come across in Trials/Vets/PvP. I would rank SWTOR next, then WOW, then Warhammer.

Funny thing is, on the ESO Stream last night, the dev was saying how welcoming and open arms this community is. I just sat there and shook my head, because the very design of the game allows for this elitism. The games that does not allow for it are the games you see it less in.

I know I come across brash, brutal on the forums, its just how I type. People often read emotion into my posts that does not actually exist, it always makes me laugh. But I have always worked my best to foster a fun environment for everyone when in game. I have never once considered myself better than someone around me, and in fact if they are showing signs of being new, I will silently take them under my wing. I do the same when I am running around in game. If a low level starts following me while I blow stuff up, I slow down to their pace and try to let them tag everything, sometimes I will invite them.

When the system, much like you described, allows for a select few to exert their dominance over others in the ways you described...well in many cases its bad game design that allows for it.

Really? I wonder if it has to do with the type of content you played or just bad luck? It seems inevitable that if you’re venturing into more challenging content that you’re bound to meet people who are elitist, and while rudeness is never excusable, it also seems quite reasonable that people who know the content well would desire to play with similar players most of the time. I am always grateful for those willing to teach and help, but it is not their obligation. I have encountered a lot of very considerate and helpful experienced players in ESO so far. There have been a few less pleasant dungeon runs, but those have been in the minority, and the one of the rare times people were being disrespectful n’wahs, I left group and ignored and queues again a bit later.

All that to say, I do think the community overall is great, but just like any collection of people, there will be exceptions in various ways, and one is most likely to encounter these elements in the more difficult content.

And I want to say it’s great that you do that for and help new players! I try to be cognizant and help other players too, when I am able. I appreciate the times it was done for me and it makes me happy to be able to pass it on.

Kalik_Gold

Start your own guild. Especially if you have experience in the trials. A lot of new players or casuals need a leader, and you can possibly build a new core of players.

IndianaJames7

A few things here:

1. Some raid guilds are toxic, I suggest finding a different one if you don’t like the place a current guild is in.

2. Definitely do not put skins behind RNG. There is already enough rng in this game and making them an unbound rare drop would only increase toxicity imo. (Imagine how much people will be telling you that you got carried/ demanding you give up skin to others if you were in the bottom half of dps and got the only skin drop in the group).

3. I see nothing wrong with people selling skin/gear runs. It is a nice way for elite players to make some gold while they are playing (trading is where the huge money is, not selling skin runs).

4. Personally I think skins that were bought are meaningless and I don’t judge people’s skill based on what clears they may or may not have. Fact is a lot of people get carried through content and a carry is a carry whether they paid for it or not, so why not reward the people who over contributed if everyone including the buyer is on board?

5. There are slayer achievements that you need to do content several times to get, but many people are only focused on the clear so these achievements aren’t discussed very often.

6. Based on your explanation I don’t see you as a victim in this. You claim to have been cyber bullied by people telling you that you got carried, but then turned around and tried to sell skin runs by carrying others for money? And then continue to feel bullied after the seemingly shady people you grouped with behaved shady to you?

I don’t mean to be rude or condescending, but I think you might be a bit too invested in your guilds/ raiding in general right now. And I say this as someone who has spent over 150 days in game play time and while I am not as active in game now as I was in university, I still spend 20+ hours a week in game.

If it is getting to the point that your own well-being is being affected due to this game it may be time to take a break. Or not even take a break but just switch it up a bit; do some pvp for a while, or fishing, or housing/fashion scrolls. There is so much to do in this game that there is no reason to get too worked up about one aspect of it.

nordmarian

2. bound on pickup and not tradeable.

Cygemai_Hlervu

Raideen wrote: »

I know I come across brash, brutal on the forums, its just how I type. People often read emotion into my posts that does not actually exist, it always makes me laugh. But I have always worked my best to foster a fun environment for everyone when in game. I have never once considered myself better than someone around me, and in fact if they are showing signs of being new, I will silently take them under my wing.

Oh, man, me the same!.. A printed text is always read by different people differently and a slight joke can be considered offensive. Instead of telling it people begin to mock for real offensively and it doesn't make me laugh - I begin to offend for real different ways to insult them myself. A foolish thing to make quarrels out of a whole cloth there.. And the second difference I'm not that kind to take someone under my wing. Hell is paved with good intentions.. But I do not consider myself better than someone around me too. And I usually do not enter any player guilds. I was invited in some PvP and Trading ones but I always decline the offer. I'm too far from considering myself a trader and I'm not fond of being a part of a croud. Thus I don't understand the OP's troubles: you don't like them - you leave them behind and go your own way. Player groups often want to set you up to their own standards of builds, gear, playtime. It's much easier and more productive for me to count frags alone or to gather an army of random players (some of them play constantly the same time I do, we group up but we are not guildmates or friends) and lead them out or be led by them to collect skulls of those Covenant and Dominion n'wahs .

zaria

chainlink01 wrote: »

Here's a simple solution, quit that drama and go guild shopping. Seriously, why endure that kind of drama for so long.

This, ESO allow for 5 guilds so you can comfortable stay in 3 and shop around with 2.

Pauls

I heard several times that people were kicked at the end vet dungeons for absolutely no reason (I trust them because they doing fine), probably for letting others pay for achievements or monster helms.

Rungar

Elder Mercenaries Online

yep thats the right direction. Right down into the hole.

starkerealm

Raideen wrote: »

Funny thing is, on the ESO Stream last night, the dev was saying how welcoming and open arms this community is. I just sat there and shook my head, because the very design of the game allows for this elitism. The games that does not allow for it are the games you see it less in.

There's pretty much no way to prevent elitism. Even if you dumb down the hardest content to the point where anyone could faceroll through it, you'd still have elitists who would declare, "no, see, I did it when it was hard, you're not worthy."

You can do things in your game to actively encourage elitism. Ratcheting up content difficulty. Introducing punitive measures to make players suffer.

You want to see an elitist game, remove combat rezes entirely, and stick a 24 hour lockout after you enter a dungeon or trial, where you're prohibited from reentering and dungeon or trial on vet. Ratchet the difficulty just enough so that only "the best" players can actually clear, and you'd see real elitism.

On the whole, ESO's community is very welcoming in comparison to other MMOs.

code65536

I absolutely hate the very idea of paid carry runs.* It devalues the achievements and rewards. It's shady, and I frown upon both buyers and sellers.

Find different people to run with. Run with people who are more interested in running content for fun, for improvement, etc., and get away from people who are just looking to profit from it. The kinds of things described by the OP are things that I've never, ever encountered. Play with people with integrity, not with people who prostitute themselves out.

However, I do understand why people participate in paid carries. Endgame PvE is very expensive, and the rewards barely cover the cost if you are clearing. And if you are progressing (wiping), you are in the red. I know people who participate in carry selling because that's how they keep up with the expenses. This is a major pain point, and the high cost of alchemy is the primary culprit. Increasing the yield of potion crafting or rewarding alchemy ingredients in trials would reduce this problem.


* Disclosure: Despite my staunch opposition to paid carries, I have participated in two paid carry runs. One was a vMoL that I didn't know was a carry run until the end when I was unexpectedly given gold (I was asked if I was free to come to an impromptu vMoL, with no mention that it was a carry). The next was a Malatar run shortly after that dungeon went live: my friends and I saw a zone chat advertisement for it with a price that we thought was predatory, so we put out our own ad with a much lower price in response, and to our surprise, we immediately got a buyer who actually paid us at the end (we were surprised because we felt our price of 600K, despite being lower, was still very high given that this was an easy dungeon--we completed the carry run in about 25 minutes).

starkerealm

@code65536, it's kinda like paid bites in that respect. If you're providing a service, and both sides are happy, okay, cool. But it can also, easily, be predatory, because the person paying the gold may not have full knowledge of how little they're getting.

Fischblut

I have few opinions about selling achievement runs, and all my opinions are different at the same time...

1) I voted "It causes trust issues as you can't possible know if a player got an achievement legit or bought it and you cannot judge someone by his performances and achievements he earned and it should stop"

It feels weird when I see people advertising skin and loot runs on all dungeons/trials, while I took great effort in gathering a group (zone, dungeon finder, sometimes a friend joins) and actually earning the skin/personality/loot by our combined effort. It took me more than a year of finally gathering 3 more decent people with whom I could finally get Falkreath Hold speedrun + no death (in one wild run this April) It was achievement on it's own! Of course it's sad to see that people sell this skin (I suppose they use some glitch for no death runs), and I also remember how everyone got no death achievement after release of this DLC (it was bugged, and I don't know if the achievement was removed from them after the fix).
For me this skin has great emotional value, but every time I see someone else using it, I can't help but ask myself: "Did they glitch it? Did they buy it? Did they earned it by their skill?"
Nowadays I ask myself these questions for every skin and personality in game. Only Sunspire Champion mount means something so far, but that thing is out of my reach - at least I don't have any questions when I see someone riding it

I can buy all trials skins and price is not a problem, but I see no reason in doing so - I can earn that myself (with a decent group), so my pride would be hurt if I got achievement skin by carry

But at the same time, other person may ask themselves same questions if they see me wearing this skin. They can't know if I bought it or earned it. So I think it's safe to say that the only person who should care about my achievements... is me

2) If people just want the cosmetics for RP reasons and they don't mind spending gold on being carried, I can't blame them. If I had team who would wish to sell carry runs, I wouldn't mind to be paid as well Last time I tanked vet WGT like 2 years ago, and I remember it so well cause it was the paid run + a person was going to pay extra for every Molag Kena helmet with good trait. I would not go there for free, but I went there for gold. And the person was decent player, so it wasn't even a carry run

I also buy lot of crown crates and store cosmetics for gold, so if people will then use this gold for buying in-game skins and personalities, I'm 100% cool with it I enjoy beautiful crown store items, while other person enjoys their achievement personalities and skins without the stress of doing the dungeons.

3) I would also be ok if skins/personalities would come only in runeboxes (like Clockwork polymorph) - less need for carry runs (maybe only for loot and titles), and win/win for everyone. Someone with a skill and group can sell runeboxes, someone with gold can buy them.

starkerealm

Fischblut wrote: »

(I suppose they use some glitch for no death runs)

The carry stays out of the arena, I assume. It's how we finally got CoH2 No Death for a couple guildies, awhile back.

beadabow

Unfortunately for you, my friend, you have been running with a bad crowd. On a brighter note, your past experiences will help you to choose your friends more wisely in future. If I were in a guild or a group of people like that, I would not turn and walk away, I would run.

I have encountered genuinely good people in my playing experiences over the years, and nothing, I mean NOTHING in this game matters to me more than honesty, integrity, and good-hearted fun. I can be cordial with egotists, but that's about the extent of it. For all I care, they can have everything this game has to offer, but they will never have my respect or friendship. Only a few players can earn that.

Raisin

You are 100% taking your drama and "cyber bullying" way too seriously.
I am sure that you, like many people, have experienced some toxic endgame folks a d had bad experiences. Especially once it comes to money, people can get nasty. But it's not as common of an issue as you think, and I do get the impression you just didn't find the right guild for yourself.
And I do want to say that while standards for endgame raiding can get rather high, and even good players may be replaced with a player just slightly better.... I am more inclined to think that you just simply weren't as good as the groups wanted/needed, than to think that you're always good enough and everybody just has it out for you. The doesn't mean you weren't a good player, it just means that they found someone better.

And it's not fair to accuse groups that do loot/carry runs of abusing new or inexperienced players. ESO is filled to the brim with noob-friendly, casual raiding, raid-teaching guilds; easier to access than ever before through guild finder. I've never heard of a beginner stupid enough to think that they have to pay a group to carry them (as they themselves stand in a corner doing nothing) to raid. Most people understand that that is a very different kind of run, and they know why they're choosing it if they do. A lot of people (for example roleplayers) don't wanna run certain content but want the appearance modifiers -- why not let them have it?

Making all trials the same length sounds awful to me. Why not have variety? People will run what they're in the mood for it what they enjoy running. It's good to have different options, cause people will feel like this or that depending on the day. And aside from enjoying it, I go to vHOF for the Master Architect. :P

Anyway, a lot of your points aren't really facts, just you sharing personal experiences and opinions.
So you were in a paid carry run, but you weren't from the group organizing it.... And you're upset you didn't also get paid (despite not condoning paid carry runs). You tried to get your friend into a raid group 'as a birthday gift', completely ignoring the normal recruitment process and part where you don't get into raid groups just cause you're someone's friend... And were upset that people wanted to charge you for what looked like a carry run. Obviously if someone is like "hey I just wanna come along without being picked from a lineup of applicants", the group is gonna ask you to pay the f up for that carry. I'm sorry but either you both apply for the position and get it, or you don't (and buy yourself in if the group does that kind of stuff). If anybody did that to me, my group or my friends, I would also highly consider cutting them out of my ESO experience. You sound entitled and demanding in these examples.

I wasn't there and I don't know you, but I can tell you from this post I don't get the impression that you were innocent in whatever drama transpired in your guild... And I wouldn't want you in my progress group either. :x

Donny_Vito

I'm really surprised by some of the first few comments that were straight up disrespectful. It's very ironic, given the content of the original post.

idk

nordmarian wrote: »

H
Content must be designed and balanced better as follow:
- Length. Content must have a specific length in time on par with all other similar content. Here I am pointing out to few contents that are out of their place. vAS2 which consist in going straight for a 15 minutes end boss. vCR3, which consist in going straight for a 10 minutes end boss. vHOF with in happy cases it takes around one hour. vDSA which takes around same amount of time. What I'm trying to say here is that content such as vHOF are totally out of question for people when they can go to a much faster and or easier trial. Same goes for dungeons. from Fungal Grotto 1 to some of the DLC dungeons is a looong way.
- Difficulty wise. Why wasting time explaining endless mechanics in vhof when I can simply go to a raid in which mechanics are so much easier to explain and overall there are far less mechanics?
- Loot wise. Why going for vHOF when I can simply go to a newer trial and get loot with is at least 50% better?

First off, TLDR and the OP seemed mostly complaining because they and their friends could not raid with good trial teams.

Second, it is such a poor idea to have all trials be so similar as OP is suggesting in this section I quoted. Forcing trials to be the same length of time really does nothing other than hinder good development of the content.

More so, restricting the devs on the challenge they can make a trial based on previous trials is also a poorly thought out restriction. I have yet to find a game where the challenge of all large group raids are similar and sometime the toughest and most interesting fights are not in the latest trial and there is nothing wrong with that.

Additionally, it makes sense that they latest and greatest trial gear is in the latest and greatest trial and someone finding vHoF to be a waste of time is rather irrelevant. Someone wanting to truly help their friends would not consider helping their friends get their clear a waste of time.

From what I did read of OP's complaints from their experience it sounds like they are not in the right raid guild for them. I also seriously doubt they kicked as a tank without reason. I am betting that whole story from 2016 has a different side.

Edit: I say this as someone who has raided competitively for years, run with a training group to develop new players, often helps out with other groups working to get their first clear, even in older trials, and runs with a very casual group. The only players in my guilds I have seen complain about elitism are players who refuse assistance and help to improve which keeps them from getting into a raid team.

starkerealm

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I'm really surprised by some of the first few comments that were straight up disrespectful. It's very ironic, given the content of the original post.

I suspect a large part of that was a result of the closing "suggestions." If you were on the fence going into it, those two suggestions were pretty terrible.

Also, amusingly, it runs contrary to the design goal for the dungeon rewards. Those are intended to incentivize people to run the content. Also part of why they started moving the rewards down to just Vet completion, instead of Hard Mode/No Death/Speed Run completes.

The idea is, you'll see someone wearing the Meridia Skin, or with the Backpack Scamp, go, "oh, that's cool," ask about it, learn you just need to clear X dungeon on vet, and then you're off to the races. They're there to entice you into the vet content.

Before, when it was, "get these three intimidating sounding achievements," a lot of people (apparently) would check out, and it wasn't as enticing. They'd see the skin from vSCP, but then learn what it required and just go, "nope, can't do that, not for me."

So, ironically, carries do kinda build into the design goals for the skins. It may sound really weird, but those are almost more about tempting new players to try content they'd otherwise avoid, than they are about showing off how awesome you are.

kylewwefan

A page worth of venting followed by an incoherent poll.

The endgame community can be really nasty and toxic.

You got caught up in it. (You were part of it)

You were in a group doing carries! Then they turned on you and said they were carrying you. Real nice people there.

And you’re bold enough to complain that you’re not getting paid? How tf is anyone supposed to feel sorry for you?

Those were your people. Your friends. Den of vipers. Sea of thieves.

So now you want the entire game changed to fit your agenda; that isn’t even well thaught out yet.

Let the devs do their job and be glad someone else is in charge.

Reverb

Your post and the poll options give the impression that there’s a lot going on with you. A lot. And when a person with a lot of drama hitches to a guild with a lot of drama it leads to thing like this.

Shezzarrine

While it sounds like you got a bad deal, I also think there is much more to the other side of the story than you see/care to admit.

Not saying this is for sure the case, but often in progression groups there are those that think they are good players and that they can clear, but any success they really have is a result of basically being carried by the rest of the group. Ive run in a few prog groups and all had players like this, who, once replaced for one reason or another the group passed the trial instantly and when they came back couldnt again. These people never realize that they just really arent as good as they think they are, unfortunately. Again, I dont know the situation so I cant say for sure, but due to you being told you arent good enough by several groups this may be the case.

Clearing a trial once does not mean you're good at it, my group carried carried a craglorn pug cp 200 nb tank ithout silver leash through vMoL as a random fill. The endgame can be toxic for sure, but you cant say everyone else is wrong when you're the only one disagreeing. Like everyone above I advise to find a more patient and trustworthy raid/progression group. Look for ones that are led by genuinely good people, even if they have a few toxic members, that may be as good as you can get