Please nerf relequen and give room for other sets to shine!

Bigevilpeter

Yes this is a nerf X thread and for good reason, many people don't relealize that this set had a hand in many of the huge nerfs to damage in general, it does 10k dps on its own with just light attacking plus the extra minor slayer and the extra stat on 5 piece if you have perfected version.

Even lokkestiz buffs your damage by 20% so if you do good damage it buffs it but it doesnt do the damage for you.

Now after all the Dot nerf relequen still hasnt been nerfed to balance with dots and it was already crucial before now its even worse. Before relequen stamina damage was good and different builds were viable.

Imagine how many more sets can be used if you removed relequen from that slot and it will also motivate the balance team to buff damage in general since players will lose a lot of damage from this set, after that you can use other stuff.


Other much weaker sets have been nerfed for less and this set almost wasn't touched for a year and a half now

VaranisArano

First, I think we need to find a PVP reason for nerfing Relequen.

That way the PVEers can comfort themselves with the knowledge that Relequen was nerfed because of those evil nerf-happy PVPers out to ruin everything that's good in PVE, not because its a completely overused and really powerful PVE set.

Either that or we need to get Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the trial bosses some forum accounts of their own.

Bigevilpeter

VaranisArano wrote: »

First, I think we need to find a PVP reason for nerfing Relequen.

That way the PVEers can comfort themselves with the knowledge that Relequen was nerfed because of those evil nerf-happy PVPers out to ruin everything that's good in PVE, not because its a completely overused and really powerful PVE set.

Either that or we need to get Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the trial bosses some forum accounts of their own.

Its true though, PvP balance is ruining PvE :P And I don't think there is anyway that PvP can actually be balanced. PvE on the other hand can much easier with trial and error on DPS numbers between classes.

Still relequen is just a thorne in real PvE balance when devs see those 100k dps parses on the new target dummy. OMG that thing blew things way out of proportion.

I miss the old days where the best dps on a 6m dummy was like 54k with all the cheese

SodanTok

many people don't relealize that this set had a hand in many of the huge nerfs to damage in general

proof?

LiquidPony

Only if a bunch of other stuff gets un-nerfed.

Asking for a nerf to Relequen right now just kills DPS, which is already really low on most builds despite Relequen.

Jonno

not sure what the issue is with rele, there arnt that many fights where it can even be used effectivly basically only static fights where there is no target switch or much movement #ParseSet

SidraWillowsky

VaranisArano wrote: »

First, I think we need to find a PVP reason for nerfing Relequen.

That way the PVEers can comfort themselves with the knowledge that Relequen was nerfed because of those evil nerf-happy PVPers out to ruin everything that's good in PVE, not because its a completely overused and really powerful PVE set.

Either that or we need to get Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the trial bosses some forum accounts of their own.

The fact that it hasn't been nerfed yet shows me that the game IS being "balanced" for PvP. Lokk + Relequen is a disgustingly strong combination and nothing else comes close. Based on recent set nerfs it SHOULD have been nerfed long ago if the game were truly being balanced for PvP AND PvE.

Every time I present a different set combo for stam to people the de facto response is "well, Lokk + Rele will probably still be BiS". It's a disgustingly strong combination and yes, I AM annoyed at how far above everything else it is. I'm a min/maxxer and I want other sets to at least be VIABLE. I'd rather other sets be buffed vs. Rele massively nerfed though, because you know that any "adjustments" made will be massive nerfs to the set.

fierackas

Great set for fighting dummies

kojou

I would not shed any tears for Relequen. I never particularly care for sets that proc damage, but as mentioned we need to make sure that stamina setups do not fall below magicka setups without it.

Keep in mind there will always be a statistical best that someone will find and everyone will switch to.

I miss the days when Sunderflame and Night Mother's were unique buffs and there would actually be build diversity.

LiquidPony

Jonno wrote: »

not sure what the issue is with rele, there arnt that many fights where it can even be used effectivly basically only static fights where there is no target switch or much movement #ParseSet

lol let's be honest, Relequen is used in like ... 90% of raid boss fights.

Jonno

w

LiquidPony wrote: »

Jonno wrote: »

not sure what the issue is with rele, there arnt that many fights where it can even be used effectivly basically only static fights where there is no target switch or much movement #ParseSet

lol let's be honest, Relequen is used in like ... 90% of raid boss fights.

wouldnt say 90% 4/4 bosses vAA, 3/4 vHRC, 3/4 vSO, 2/3vMoL, 1/5 vHoF (if using burn tactic on 1st boss 0/5 otherwise) 0/3 0/1+2 vAS, 0 in vCR, 0 in vSS

will agree a lot of players use it in every fight for some reason even trash where its utterly useless this doesnt mean its BiS for those fights

Bigevilpeter

Jonno wrote: »

w

LiquidPony wrote: »

Jonno wrote: »

not sure what the issue is with rele, there arnt that many fights where it can even be used effectivly basically only static fights where there is no target switch or much movement #ParseSet

lol let's be honest, Relequen is used in like ... 90% of raid boss fights.

wouldnt say 90% 4/4 bosses vAA, 3/4 vHRC, 3/4 vSO, 2/3vMoL, 1/5 vHoF (if using burn tactic on 1st boss 0/5 otherwise) 0/3 0/1+2 vAS, 0 in vCR, 0 in vSS

will agree a lot of players use it in every fight for some reason even trash where its utterly useless this doesnt mean its BiS for those fights

It is one of the reasons why people are able to pull insane numbers and thus the entire dps of the game is getting nerfed. I hate how it works, but even at half stacks its still better than any other set

VaranisArano

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

First, I think we need to find a PVP reason for nerfing Relequen.

That way the PVEers can comfort themselves with the knowledge that Relequen was nerfed because of those evil nerf-happy PVPers out to ruin everything that's good in PVE, not because its a completely overused and really powerful PVE set.

Either that or we need to get Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the trial bosses some forum accounts of their own.

The fact that it hasn't been nerfed yet shows me that the game IS being "balanced" for PvP. Lokk + Relequen is a disgustingly strong combination and nothing else comes close. Based on recent set nerfs it SHOULD have been nerfed long ago if the game were truly being balanced for PvP AND PvE.

Every time I present a different set combo for stam to people the de facto response is "well, Lokk + Rele will probably still be BiS". It's a disgustingly strong combination and yes, I AM annoyed at how far above everything else it is. I'm a min/maxxer and I want other sets to at least be VIABLE. I'd rather other sets be buffed vs. Rele massively nerfed though, because you know that any "adjustments" made will be massive nerfs to the set.

This is just too good.

Turns out that it doesn't matter whether a set gets nerfed or not; PVP is always to blame!

More seriously, its a problem when players feel like the viability of their class in trials is dependent on a single set, or when ZOS designs sets that are head and shoulders above everything else. But that's on ZOS, and I suspect designing their way out of the situation they got themselves in bystandardizing the creativity out of PVE is a lot more complicated than merely nerfing some overperforming sets or buffing underperforming ones before they've worked out an alternative.

Essentially, ZOS shot themselves (and us) in the foot when they decided to standardize all gameplay in ESO, which is playing a big role in the continued dominance of Relequen. ZOS can let players rely on being carried by these sets and light attacks in PVE while the devs tinker with the classes and weapons. The Devs made it clear they want to get the skills well set and then build from there, so I'm afraid that means gear updates that arent nerfs are a long way off. What we have now is not exactly fun gameplay, but its (maybe) preferably to classes seesawing between amazing and useless as the Devs tinker without having effective sets or good synergistic sets to replace the current meta.

My hope is that ZOS builds more group sets, like how we used to have a nunber of utility sets for DDs instead of just the tanks and healers. But as I said, I'm really afraid ZOS is going to want to finish their pass on classes, then passives, then weapons first before they properly reevaluate sets beyond blanket nerfs, and that could be several updates, if not over a year in the future. Yuck.

LiquidPony

Jonno wrote: »

w

LiquidPony wrote: »

Jonno wrote: »

not sure what the issue is with rele, there arnt that many fights where it can even be used effectivly basically only static fights where there is no target switch or much movement #ParseSet

lol let's be honest, Relequen is used in like ... 90% of raid boss fights.

wouldnt say 90% 4/4 bosses vAA, 3/4 vHRC, 3/4 vSO, 2/3vMoL, 1/5 vHoF (if using burn tactic on 1st boss 0/5 otherwise) 0/3 0/1+2 vAS, 0 in vCR, 0 in vSS

will agree a lot of players use it in every fight for some reason even trash where its utterly useless this doesnt mean its BiS for those fights

Well I don't agree with that at all.

It's used on all three bosses in MoL, 3/5 in vHoF (not Archcustodian or Triplets), and in vSS it's used by about half the group on Lokke, the whole group on Yolo, and the downstairs crew on Nahvi.

Also, which boss wouldn't you use Relequen on in SO? They're all stack and burn.

So ... yeah.

sindalstar

I'd rather other sets get buffed than releqene get nerfed per say.

The thing about relequne is that it's a trial set. A set from a 12 man instance.
I would EXPECT sets from these sorts of places to be stronger than stuff from smaller dungeons, because they require a lot more effort to organize and execute.

This is unfortunately the problem with having an open playing field were sets are 'designed' for early, mid and late game, but all of them are still options because unlike other games, early game sets are also usually tied to a low level.

Ah well.

Bigevilpeter

sindalstar wrote: »

I'd rather other sets get buffed than releqene get nerfed per say.

The thing about relequne is that it's a trial set. A set from a 12 man instance.
I would EXPECT sets from these sorts of places to be stronger than stuff from smaller dungeons, because they require a lot more effort to organize and execute.

This is unfortunately the problem with having an open playing field were sets are 'designed' for early, mid and late game, but all of them are still options because unlike other games, early game sets are also usually tied to a low level.

Ah well.

They are easily grinded on normal for very simillar effect, its not that hard to get at all. Also if a set changed stamina dps that much since its release means its broken OP

Shantu

Geez...enough already! The "nerf this" mentality as a solution to anything is what brought us to this pathetic state of combat. Run any damn gear you want. There are plenty of guilds running vet groups that don't give two craps what you're wearing.

STOP THE NERFS!!!

SidraWillowsky

VaranisArano wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

First, I think we need to find a PVP reason for nerfing Relequen.

That way the PVEers can comfort themselves with the knowledge that Relequen was nerfed because of those evil nerf-happy PVPers out to ruin everything that's good in PVE, not because its a completely overused and really powerful PVE set.

Either that or we need to get Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the trial bosses some forum accounts of their own.

The fact that it hasn't been nerfed yet shows me that the game IS being "balanced" for PvP. Lokk + Relequen is a disgustingly strong combination and nothing else comes close. Based on recent set nerfs it SHOULD have been nerfed long ago if the game were truly being balanced for PvP AND PvE.

Every time I present a different set combo for stam to people the de facto response is "well, Lokk + Rele will probably still be BiS". It's a disgustingly strong combination and yes, I AM annoyed at how far above everything else it is. I'm a min/maxxer and I want other sets to at least be VIABLE. I'd rather other sets be buffed vs. Rele massively nerfed though, because you know that any "adjustments" made will be massive nerfs to the set.

This is just too good.

Turns out that it doesn't matter whether a set gets nerfed or not; PVP is always to blame!

More seriously, its a problem when players feel like the viability of their class in trials is dependent on a single set, or when ZOS designs sets that are head and shoulders above everything else. But that's on ZOS, and I suspect designing their way out of the situation they got themselves in bystandardizing the creativity out of PVE is a lot more complicated than merely nerfing some overperforming sets or buffing underperforming ones before they've worked out an alternative.

Essentially, ZOS shot themselves (and us) in the foot when they decided to standardize all gameplay in ESO, which is playing a big role in the continued dominance of Relequen. ZOS can let players rely on being carried by these sets and light attacks in PVE while the devs tinker with the classes and weapons. The Devs made it clear they want to get the skills well set and then build from there, so I'm afraid that means gear updates that arent nerfs are a long way off. What we have now is not exactly fun gameplay, but its (maybe) preferably to classes seesawing between amazing and useless as the Devs tinker without having effective sets or good synergistic sets to replace the current meta.

My hope is that ZOS builds more group sets, like how we used to have a nunber of utility sets for DDs instead of just the tanks and healers. But as I said, I'm really afraid ZOS is going to want to finish their pass on classes, then passives, then weapons first before they properly reevaluate sets beyond blanket nerfs, and that could be several updates, if not over a year in the future. Yuck.

LOL sorry- I know, I know. I just cannot believe that this set hasn't been touched at all, and I can't pass up an opportunity to blame PvP for everything! You've got to admit that if a set like this existed in PvP it would result in a massive outcry. But maybe PvEers should be more outspoken about this- in reality, there's no reason to ask for a nerf to a set THIS strong when Lokkestiiz and Naviintaas don't have forum accounts to complain about the sets being OP. But I'm personally really tired of every stam setup consisting of the exact same set combination. You raised a great point re. gameplay not being super fun but that things could be much worse.

In terms of utility sets, I'd actually just gotten my Master Architect set ready on my magden when Lokk was released. It destroyed any need for sets like War Machine and MA, and now when I try to run MA all I get is lower DPS myself while providing no real utility since every stam DD and their mom is wearing Lokk, and unless I'm able to perfectly coordinate things so that I'm near mag toons when I hit my ulti, the bonus will be wasted.

Whether it be with some degree of seriousness or tongue-in-cheek, I DO tend to feel that set changes are made in the name of PvP. But this discussion has made me think- maybe I'd rather have the stupid strong PvE-only sets adjusted down if it means that many other sets become viable. People in my PvP guild are always theorycrafting builds that work quite well, and the number of sets that are usable and at least reasonably equal in terms of strength allows for a much greater degree of variability and creativity. I know that there have been set combos that have been wildly OP (something about Viper + Tremorscale + something else at one point; I wasn't around for it though), but weren't they adjusted fairly quickly?

Ugh. I'm rambling and not super coherent. Need more coffee. tldr, you make great points, as always, and I agree.

WrathOfInnos

I play mostly Magicka DPS, but IMO Relequen is fine. I don’t like Lokkestiiz because it ruined group composition (I won’t derail this conversation too much with a rant on that topic), but Relequen has it’s own downsides and is not much better than other gear options. It’s almost like a cross between Spell Strat (single target, requires Light Attacks to keep up) and Siroria (stacking mechanic with ramp up time and requires some amount of skill to not reset). I wouldn’t mind seeing a Magicka version of Relequen at some point, and I’m sure Stam DPS mains would like to see a Stamina version of Siroria.

BattleAxe

A simple solution look at old trial gear and try to theme them for each class so say vicious ophidian give it a stam dk theme so classes each have their own BiS trial gear relequen effects put me in mind of a sorc set if anyone sees where I’m going with this.

Tyrobag

Typically I say nerfing isn't the way to go, but in this case you are correct. Relequeen's has been significantly OP for a very long time, and I'm tired of feeling like I'm forced to use it to achieve competitive dps (especially since its so heavily themed that anyone other than a stamsorc feels weird using it).

ZoS really needs to do a balance pass on sets and actually properly even them up. If I'm wearing sheer venom (which actually has a real requirement to activate) I should pull the same dps as if I used relequeen's, or viper, or any other comparable set. As it is now, Relequeen is 2-3k above the next highest damaging set.

ZeroXFF

How about we buff war machine to 15-20s instead?

kalunte

Can someone recall me which reward do we get for blowing Dummies up?

perfect for single target, trash when it comes to aoe or fight with little to medium adds. good for heavy adds tho. but far from perfect + once you reach a high dps cap this set doesnt follow your own skill lvling, it can do 20/30% of some low dps, but the higher you get, the lower % it gives.

can be nerfed still, to make a few happy and many other cry

LiquidPony

BattleAxe wrote: »

A simple solution look at old trial gear and try to theme them for each class so say vicious ophidian give it a stam dk theme so classes each have their own BiS trial gear relequen effects put me in mind of a sorc set if anyone sees where I’m going with this.

Rather than class themes, we just need a general balance pass on old Trial sets.

First, give everything a "Perfected" version that drops on vet, to bring for instance VO up to par with False God.

Second, a thorough review of 5-piece bonuses. Alkosh could compete with Relequen if its proc damage was increased significantly. Moondancer would be a really cool option for mag DPS if it was buffed to something like +650 Spell Damage/Magicka Recovery.

War Machine and Master Architect are basically irrelevant at this point due to Lokke. It would be cool to see these modified in some way, either granting Major Berserk for a shorter period of time or significantly buffing the duration of Major Slayer so that it would be viable to run some low-cust ulti specs and allowing your necros/sorcs to use something other than Lokke.

Plus, there are so many absolutely useless support sets. Inventor's Guard, Automated Defense, Twilight Remedy, Lunar Bastion? How have we never seen any modifications to these sets, which have never ever been used in meta setups?

Always thought it would've been cool to see something like Inventor's Guard grant Major Force for some duration on ulti use, which would make that set viable while also allowing support to actually use an ulti other than Warhorn.

Oh well, none of this will ever happen.

Vlad9425

Or you could buff the weaker sets instead... not sure what is wrong with this community cos all they ask is for more and more nerfs smh

BattleAxe

LiquidPony wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

A simple solution look at old trial gear and try to theme them for each class so say vicious ophidian give it a stam dk theme so classes each have their own BiS trial gear relequen effects put me in mind of a sorc set if anyone sees where I’m going with this.

Rather than class themes, we just need a general balance pass on old Trial sets.

First, give everything a "Perfected" version that drops on vet, to bring for instance VO up to par with False God.

Second, a thorough review of 5-piece bonuses. Alkosh could compete with Relequen if its proc damage was increased significantly. Moondancer would be a really cool option for mag DPS if it was buffed to something like +650 Spell Damage/Magicka Recovery.

War Machine and Master Architect are basically irrelevant at this point due to Lokke. It would be cool to see these modified in some way, either granting Major Berserk for a shorter period of time or significantly buffing the duration of Major Slayer so that it would be viable to run some low-cust ulti specs and allowing your necros/sorcs to use something other than Lokke.

Plus, there are so many absolutely useless support sets. Inventor's Guard, Automated Defense, Twilight Remedy, Lunar Bastion? How have we never seen any modifications to these sets, which have never ever been used in meta setups?

Always thought it would've been cool to see something like Inventor's Guard grant Major Force for some duration on ulti use, which would make that set viable while also allowing support to actually use an ulti other than Warhorn.

Oh well, none of this will ever happen.

Problem with go getting a perfected is there essentially already is 2 versions of that set one with minor slayer one without.
Keep in mind the new content means new sets if newer sets are outshined by old sets what point is there running the new content. Adding a class based theme to each set starts to bring older sets back into the fold without eclipsing the newer sets as each class will want to run all the content to get the best gear for their class. Also this creates build diversity. As without nerfing sets but buffing old ones with class flavor will give each class something unique. A simple buff to old sets will do nothing except shift the meta instead of like and reel it will be vicious alkosh or alkosh war machine. You see relequen feels like a stam sorc set I’m simply implying do the same with older sets from older trials. Vicious serpent could add some sort of dragonknight themed damage bonus or damage proc. Do something similar with other sets for each class this way no 2 stam classes will be wearing the exact same 2 sets.

LiquidPony

BattleAxe wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

A simple solution look at old trial gear and try to theme them for each class so say vicious ophidian give it a stam dk theme so classes each have their own BiS trial gear relequen effects put me in mind of a sorc set if anyone sees where I’m going with this.

Rather than class themes, we just need a general balance pass on old Trial sets.

First, give everything a "Perfected" version that drops on vet, to bring for instance VO up to par with False God.

Second, a thorough review of 5-piece bonuses. Alkosh could compete with Relequen if its proc damage was increased significantly. Moondancer would be a really cool option for mag DPS if it was buffed to something like +650 Spell Damage/Magicka Recovery.

War Machine and Master Architect are basically irrelevant at this point due to Lokke. It would be cool to see these modified in some way, either granting Major Berserk for a shorter period of time or significantly buffing the duration of Major Slayer so that it would be viable to run some low-cust ulti specs and allowing your necros/sorcs to use something other than Lokke.

Plus, there are so many absolutely useless support sets. Inventor's Guard, Automated Defense, Twilight Remedy, Lunar Bastion? How have we never seen any modifications to these sets, which have never ever been used in meta setups?

Always thought it would've been cool to see something like Inventor's Guard grant Major Force for some duration on ulti use, which would make that set viable while also allowing support to actually use an ulti other than Warhorn.

Oh well, none of this will ever happen.

Problem with go getting a perfected is there essentially already is 2 versions of that set one with minor slayer one without.
Keep in mind the new content means new sets if newer sets are outshined by old sets what point is there running the new content. Adding a class based theme to each set starts to bring older sets back into the fold without eclipsing the newer sets as each class will want to run all the content to get the best gear for their class. Also this creates build diversity. As without nerfing sets but buffing old ones with class flavor will give each class something unique. A simple buff to old sets will do nothing except shift the meta instead of like and reel it will be vicious alkosh or alkosh war machine. You see relequen feels like a stam sorc set I’m simply implying do the same with older sets from older trials. Vicious serpent could add some sort of dragonknight themed damage bonus or damage proc. Do something similar with other sets for each class this way no 2 stam classes will be wearing the exact same 2 sets.

Buffing old sets doesn't have to render newer sets useless.

Just has to be some actual thought put into the changes.

For instance, buffing the proc damage of Alkosh certainly doesn't render anything useless, because you're not going to want more than 1/2 people running it anyway.

Or if War Machine granted Major Berserk instead of Major Slayer, you'd probably want 3 NBs/Templars/Wardens in War Machine while the rest of your DPS run Lokke.

A big buff to Moondancer would still leave you with options, because you might want to run Moondancer for movement-oriented fights or fights where sustain is difficult, whereas you'd prefer Siroria for stack-and-burn fights.

Bigevilpeter

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Or you could buff the weaker sets instead... not sure what is wrong with this community cos all they ask is for more and more nerfs smh

You can't buff every single set in the game cause that is what power creep is and thats why we are getting those misguided nerfs to all abilities.

Relequen is out of line and it should be nerfed instead of all these skills

LiquidPony

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Or you could buff the weaker sets instead... not sure what is wrong with this community cos all they ask is for more and more nerfs smh

You can't buff every single set in the game cause that is what power creep is and thats why we are getting those misguided nerfs to all abilities.

Relequen is out of line and it should be nerfed instead of all these skills

Can't say I agree. Two primary reasons:

1. A big part of the DoT nerf going on right now is related to PvP. A bigger part of the DoT nerf is due to ZOS's misguided buffs to existing DoTs and the addition of new DoTs in Scalebreaker. Nothing to do with sets.
2. If other sets were about as strong as Relequen/Lokke/Siroria etc., or perhaps better in certain situations, that doesn't really "creep" power at all. That just gives us more options to do the same amount of damage.

Vlad9425

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Or you could buff the weaker sets instead... not sure what is wrong with this community cos all they ask is for more and more nerfs smh

You can't buff every single set in the game cause that is what power creep is and thats why we are getting those misguided nerfs to all abilities.

Relequen is out of line and it should be nerfed instead of all these skills

What makes you think they even have a clue what they're doing with all these nerfs and buffs? They Buff stuff in one update to then nerf it into insignificance in the next update. Relequen isn't the reason skills are getting nerfed but a bad combat team is.

MehrunesFlagon

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Or you could buff the weaker sets instead... not sure what is wrong with this community cos all they ask is for more and more nerfs smh

You can't buff every single set in the game cause that is what power creep is and thats why we are getting those misguided nerfs to all abilities.

Relequen is out of line and it should be nerfed instead of all these skills

What makes you think they even have a clue what they're doing with all these nerfs and buffs? They Buff stuff in one update to then nerf it into insignificance in the next update. Relequen isn't the reason skills are getting nerfed but a bad combat team is.

I'm not sure it's the entire team.I tend to put the weight of the blame on Wheeler.The man is obviously clueless.