@Zenimax: Are DD magicka dragonknights still supposed to be dot-focused?

Ingel_Riday

Heya all. To start things off, I apology if I come across as a prick with the title. I'm not trying to be snide. Rather, I'm honestly just trying to get to grips with update 24 and what to do with my main character.

Specifically, are damage-dealing magicka dragonknights still supposed to be dot-focused characters post-update 24? If not, are we... supposed to be something else? I don't know.

I've been here before, truthfully. DD magicka dragonknights are a weird thing. You're a spellcaster with at least 5 pieces of cloth and a long-range magical staff... but almost all your offensive damage abilities in ardent flame are melee range, so YOU are in melee range too. Tough luck, amigo. But you get used to it. Eventually, you stop eyeing ranged dd magicka sorcerers with rueful envy or glaring at melee stamina characters in their charming leather get-ups, and you adapt; I put on two pieces of heavy reinforced armor (legs and chest), a light shoulder with 2,975 physical + spell resist (goodbye, 1000+ mana shoulder buff), took some champion points (rounding me up to 22k spell resist and 19k physical resist), and went with 40k mana and 20k health. Pair this all with hardened armor and I'm a hardy son of a gun.

It's a good thing that I am too, because I have no escape abilities unless I become a vampire for mist form. My class apparently isn't meant to escape damage; we're meant to work through it. Fine. Awful situation in pvp, but fine. I need to let a nice vampire nibble my neck if I want to fight in Cyrodiil full time, I guess.

I have no burst damage. The sorcerer "medium weave + force pulse + proc of crystal fragment" combo? Can't do it. I have no execute, either. I also have neither the magicka regeneration perks available to nightblades nor the magicka cost reductions available to sorcerers, so my sustain is an issue. What I do get is a +50% boost to heavy attack damage with my weapon buff... as a very unsubtle hint that the game knows my sustain sucks and expects me to heavy attack it up a lot more than the other guys. It's a good thing I don't pvp.

But what do I have? What is my niche is this game's ecosystem? What do I do well as a class? All mean-spirited jokes aside, dots. I do damage over time. That's my niche, according to updates 22 and 23. Cast entropy on the pve target (degeneration morph for the limited magicka back per hit, because oh my god my sustain), a light attack to use the empower buff after entropy, elemental blockade, fiery breath, medium attack / weave with burning embers, and a medium attack / weave with molten whip to use the 66% damage bonus from casting both fiery breath and burning embers. Then spam light/medium weaves and molten whip until my dots start to wear off and re-cast.

It's not great in short fights, but I do pretty well in longer engagements. The ticking dots also give me time to cast heavy attacks when my mana potions are on cooldown, because I need to cast heavy attacks now because game design. It works. Variety outside the cycle.

Or rather, I should say that I DID pretty well in longer engagements. I... I'm at a loss, right now. Thanks to update 24, my fiery breath does 40% less damage, my burning embers does 60% less damage, and both need 25% more time to do what damage they have left (10 second base instead of 8). I imagine the dots on entropy and elemental blockade are equally screwed, though you haven't divulged those reductions yet. No boosts to initial damage amounts on these spells. No new burst damage ability. No new execute ability. Nothing to compensate me. Just pure suck.

Oh, and they all cost more magicka as well. Fiery breath now requires 25% more magicka to cast and burning embers requires 37.5% more magicka. &$&$ing fantastic. I already have awful sustain, and now I get to enjoy myself even more, apparently. I assume the magicka needed for blockade and entropy will be equally large increases as well, because why not?

As a DD magicka dragonknight, 4 of my 5 primary attacks are dots. 4 out of 5. 80% of my primary attacks now do, on average, half damage and cost a third more to cast.

How am I supposed to recover from this? How am I supposed to tweak this character to accommodate these blows? Again, I don't have bursts or executes available to me like magicka nightblades or magicka sorcerers. I'm ALL-IN ON DOTS. That's how you designed my class, and this nerf (however necessary it might be to steer the meta-game away from its current dot-focused shenanigans) hits me like a ton of bricks. With so little diversity to the toolset provided to me, pivoting my abilities is hilariously borked.

So yeah, would you happen to have any advice? Any information to share about where I'm supposed to fit in with the new meta? Or... do I just retire my character until update 25 and play a stamina nightblade or magicka sorcerer instead? I've been meaning to build both because they sound fun, they aren't solely focused on just one combat facet like my dot-knight, and I understand how they work, but I was hoping to build them for fun and not out of necessity.

Thank you for your time and bothering to read this. Pout.

Kadoin

I think its supposed to be a meme, but then again, I think a lot differently from most people on the forums

ChunkyCat

words

they’re everywhere!

Ingel_Riday

ChunkyCat wrote: »

words

they’re everywhere!

I'm an English major first and a business guy second. Brevity is not my strong suit. I'm sorry, ChunkyCat. :-P

susmitds

DoTs needed a nerf, but this is way overkill. They should have undone the stupid buff to DoTs last patch.

Also, reinforced is very bad defense wise in PvP, impenetrable is way better.

Ingel_Riday

susmitds wrote: »

DoTs needed a nerf, but this is way overkill. They should have undone the stupid buff to DoTs last patch.

Also, reinforced is very bad defense wise in PvP, impenetrable is way better.

Agreed. I have three impenetrable gear pieces I wear when I go to pvp land. I switch out the chest, legs, and shoulder. I also switch out molten whip for force pulse because zerg groups tend to be ranged blobs.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the dot nerf if they tweaked me in other areas too. I'm assuming they have a white board or something with the six classes listed horizontally and the four roles (magicka dps, stamina dps, tank, healer) listed vertically or something. "Okay, warden healers are focused on group buffs, templar healers are focused on pure healing oomph, dragon knight healers are focused on damage shields," and so on as an example.

I'd be fine if they looked at magicka dps the same way and went, "hm... we need to de-emphasize dots. So, magicka sorcerers have a little burst flavor, magicka nightblade have a little leeching / siphoning kind of swag about them, and magicka dragonknights… are not going to be dot-flavored because we hate that kind of ice cream. TWEAK to a new emphasis." But, no new emphasis. Just disincentives with no alternatives, at least so far. Maybe I'm missing something?

Cloudtrader

You make very good points, OP. I hope that there is some way for magicka DK damage dealers to adapt.

SipofMaim

Downloaded the PTS just to see if my magDK is as screwed as it sounds like, and oh yeah. This is bad.

Runkorko

Cloudtrader wrote: »

You make very good points, OP. I hope that there is some way for magicka DK damage dealers to adapt.

Light Attack>Unrelenting Grip>Light Attack>Engulfing Flames>Light Attack>Burning Embers>LightAttack>Molten Whip>Repeat.

They finaly menage to kill DK

Ingel_Riday

Oh, just found the full patch notes...

Elemental Blockade is going to lose 32% of its damage, cost 63.7% more magicka to cast, and take 25% longer for what's left of its damage to tick off.

Entropy is going to lose 50% of its damage, cost 9% less to cost (wow, that's a surprise), and... lose its 100 magicka per light / heavy attack feature. HA! Explains the lower mana cost. A horrible net loss. Great.

I'm... I'm just going to retire the character in advance this weekend and make my stamina nightblade. Yeah, the stamblade has a nerfed volley (costs 60% more stamina and 17% less damage) and nerfed blood craze (does 63% less damage and heals 20% less), but your execute hasn't been nerfed to ruination and your ambush distance-closer remains intact. I've had this main for two and a half years now... but I can't ride through this. It too many nerfs to too many things all at once with not enough available build diversity to mitigate it. A darn shame.

JumpmanLane

Nah as a MagDk won’t be running dots next patch. Zero in thaum. I got so much damage I don’t care. But the very first time I saw the words “Dot Meta” in the forums I knew ZOS would trash Dots.

It’s wasnt even DK dots that were bad per se. It was Structured Entropy and Soul Trap. Geeze Magtemplar’s dots were stronger than MagDk’s. Oh well. You can’t run NONE of that next patch.

It just proved that the devs don’t play this game. Even though they claim to. Even if they do, they don’t pvp on a high enough level. Every buff, every nerf that comes down the pike proves that. THEY READ THE FORUMS THOUGH. LOL.

Brian Wheeler even said dot meta. Gilliam’s sitting there looking like a nut case. They don’t play this game. Somebody asked in that live stream! Ruined @ZOS_GinaBruno ‘s birthday lmao!

The TRICK to playing ESO is NOT to play meta, NOT to give out builds, NOT to stream the crap. Just mop fools and keep it moving so ZOS won’t have any idea what to nerf because forum nerflings wont know wtf you’re doing. Tbag em too...just caws!

Runkorko

30-35% overal dot dmg reduce is fine. Dots was way overbuffed anyway.
But to increase skill cost and int the same time to reduce all dots with like 60% .. hello?
Share what you smoke guys, dont bre greedy!
Who was the bright idea to reduce NECRO pet dmg with 50% ?:D
Who the heck got killed from it ? Or you pull the excuses right from the end game pvers dmg metter?
Since when 0.1% of the player base dictate game changes?
Tell you what, even if you nerf everything to the ground, there will be always be 1-2% players who pull dmg way above your metter.
What you gona do then? Burry it ?
Balance the game based on your core of playes. In our case this are the casual players, which you "KILLiing it" trying to nerf the endgamers.
Cant wait to run dungeons with randoms after patch come live. Will be such a fun

Kel

https://youtu.be/0fVEdaylhjY

Banana

I may run a sustain set in pve to just to put that icing on the cake for my damage output.

Bekkael

A poetic interlude, that another change cycle made me think of, brought to you by Dorothy Parker...mostly.

Men ZOS

They hail you as their morning star, because you are the way you are.
If you return the sentiment, they try to make you different;
And once they have you subbed safe and sound, they want to change you all around.

Your skills and DOTS they put a curse on;
They'd make of you another person.
They cannot let you perfect your rotation,
They'll just buff, then immediately nerf assassination!

They alter all that they admired.
They make me sick, they make me tired.

Paramundo

Good points, especially the bad sustain which is becoming worse. The changes sound like a death blow for MagDk.

Narvuntien

You are supposed to dot dot dot whip whip whip dot dot dot.. nice comfortable rotation.

However, I agree the nerfs on the PTS were too big we still have weeks to see if they will roll them back.

Live (3mil self buff): 35K
PTS: 29K

Which sucks, 35K is enough to do veteran trials but 29K is not, I think having those thresholds as goals is a good idea. I get it I am a mediocre player but I still want to do veteran content.

UrbanMonk

JumpmanLane wrote: »

1. Gilliam’s sitting there looking like a nut case.
2. Ruined @ZOS_GinaBruno ‘s birthday lmao!
3. The TRICK to playing ESO is NOT to play meta, NOT to give out builds, NOT to stream the crap. Just mop fools and keep it moving so ZOS won’t have any idea what to nerf because forum nerflings wont know wtf you’re doing. Tbag em too...just caws!

^ THIS ^

Ingel_Riday

It's a little bit the whiskey talking here (I have PTO today, so I'm good), but thank you guys and gals. I expected a bunch of "git gud newb" comments and teasing, but I got an incredibly well done poem and courtesy instead. It's much appreciated. It really is. You're a kind crowd.

I'm glad I'm not the only one kind of disheartened by this, and... yeah. I'm actually mapping out my stamina nightblade alt and getting into the idea of building another character or two, so I'm fine. Mourning my main, but so it goes.

This will sound silly, but I wish they had just introduced a difficulty scaling system. As of update 23, I've made good. The sustain nerf in 22 hurt a lot and the AOE nerf in 23 hurt too (not as much, but still), but I'm a CP 838 dude in legendary gear wrecking the overland and general game world. Most critters die before I get the chance to really get into my rotation. It would have been nice if, instead of crippling nerfs that necessitated me building my alts at long last, they had instead introduced some difficulty tiers. Maybe a "boost the game up from normal to hard and enemy health increases by 25% along with some damage increases but purple drop chances increase by 25%" mode and a "boost the game up to 'I've played this marvelous game too long and reached max effective CP cap' difficulty and enemy health goes up by 50% while their damage blossoms but you have a small chance of getting gold drop items" kind of system. Then I'd tweak things up and my overwhelming CP & legendary gear advantage would diminish. It'd be interesting. I'd be vulnerable to something other than world bosses and dragons again, but I'd still be functional. Fights would just be longer, more varied, and a bit more dangerous.

But no. My main will just be broken and janky while the overland and general stuff stays the same. Oh well. Thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one grumbling. It's comforting in its own way. This is a nice community.

Hotdog_23

They have no direction I believe. It seems they are just throwing stuff on the wall and seeing what sticks. Personally I am getting tired of the constant 180 turns and changes they are doing every patch. They need a true goal/roadmap of where they want to go and how to do it. Also not liking this building stack of this and that on a skill or playing a "mini-game" as they put it. I don't know about PC but on console we have no way to track anything "like this and that" stack of anything. I want to play ESO and not a mini game on skill and sets inside of ESO.

Sorry off topic, back to it.

Honestly I have no idea how you are supposed to play DK next patch. if we are to be the DOT class then ours should be the best since we have no execute. With the weakening of all DOTS and cost increase MagDK's will be in a very bad place. Thank god mine is also my master crafter because at least I will have a reason to log and play her each day for the writs each day. Maybe? Might be time for a break from ESO. Time will tell.

Hamish999

Stam DKs are in the same boat. Caltrops gone completely and it's replacement, Soul Splitting Trap nerfed. Volley, Poison Injection, Barbed Trap, Flurry, Rending Slashes, Noxious Breath all nerfed. Flames of Oblivion is pointless now too unless you have over 3k spell damage as a stamina toon ...

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

Mag Dk's are dead next patch, all their skills are dot based, the issue over the past year has never been with the skills, it has been with animation canceling and light attacks, some peeps i know can get up to 60k dps on light attacks, alot get around 20-25k dps on them making it there highest attack while others only get 3-8k the discrepancy is what the issue is, the lower ones have had an issue that their light attacks do not go of always, the staff does the animation (talking about the ones you can see light flame staff etc) but no fire ball etc is there, this is not a surprise since animation canceling and light attacks are a bug that was not meant to be in the game, but zos decided to make it a feature, the simple answer was to fix that

Recent

They just can't let things be

Nuff with the nerfs....Nuff is e-Nuff 😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢


Rip dragon knights 🚑

Commancho

It's supposed to be a spam light attack weave ability meta since next update. Just like all other classes. Although you are right - PVE wise you will have to trade much power to keep sustain on adequate level. More than the other classes. Possibly. We will see.

JumpmanLane

MagDk won’t be dead next patch. More like in intensive care. You know, all messed up and in the hospital.

Runkorko

Commancho wrote: »

It's supposed to be a spam light attack weave ability meta since next update. Just like all other classes. Although you are right - PVE wise you will have to trade much power to keep sustain on adequate level. More than the other classes. Possibly. We will see.

wth you speak about ?
what l/a spam

JumpmanLane

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

It's supposed to be a spam light attack weave ability meta since next update. Just like all other classes. Although you are right - PVE wise you will have to trade much power to keep sustain on adequate level. More than the other classes. Possibly. We will see.

wth you speak about ?
what l/a spam

Light attack whip. Pretty much it. Hope you got leap up. You might just kill a tater.

Runkorko

JumpmanLane wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

It's supposed to be a spam light attack weave ability meta since next update. Just like all other classes. Although you are right - PVE wise you will have to trade much power to keep sustain on adequate level. More than the other classes. Possibly. We will see.

wth you speak about ?
what l/a spam

Light attack whip. Pretty much it. Hope you got leap up. You might just kill a tater.

you cant kill a tater with l/a whip spam...
but you can hurt it alittle with l/a grip mWhip spam.
wont kill it anyway...

JumpmanLane

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

It's supposed to be a spam light attack weave ability meta since next update. Just like all other classes. Although you are right - PVE wise you will have to trade much power to keep sustain on adequate level. More than the other classes. Possibly. We will see.

wth you speak about ?
what l/a spam

Light attack whip. Pretty much it. Hope you got leap up. You might just kill a tater.

you cant kill a tater with l/a whip spam...
but you can hurt it alittle with l/a grip mWhip spam.
wont kill it anyway...

I can kill a potato with la whip spam THIS patch. I’m running all damage. I got 688 Magicka Recovery Lol. If I run out of Magicka a potato can kill me lol.

But hey, I’m dropping taters with Ele Drain, Structured Entropy, Resto Heavy THIS PATCH! Hahaha This patch is crazy! AND I’m tbagging ‘em! Lol. Why not!

RiskyChalice863

The extreme back and forth does show a lack of overall vision. As does some abilities being nerfed for certain reasons, only to have the reason for the nerfing deleted and the nerf not being reverted (for instance Draining Shot). And I think the extreme back and forth of dot damage does basically result in massively differential effects on different classes even if all dots are treated the same. When dots were massively buffed, Templars became OP because of Purge. With dots massively nerfed, DKs will be super weak since they rely on dots more than other classes. The strongest classes at least in PVP will be the ones with the best direct damage abilities (probably MagSorc, but Templars will be good too).

Anyways though, try a heavy attack DK build. I’d wager the DPS on it is actually competitive now even for PVE.

Also, note that Eruption wasn’t nerfed. It’ll be very strong for PVE.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The extreme back and forth does show a lack of overall vision. As does some abilities being nerfed for certain reasons, only to have the reason for the nerfing deleted and the nerf not being reverted (for instance Draining Shot). And I think the extreme back and forth of dot damage does basically result in massively differential effects on different classes even if all dots are treated the same. When dots were massively buffed, Templars became OP because of Purge. With dots massively nerfed, DKs will be super weak since they rely on dots more than other classes. The strongest classes at least in PVP will be the ones with the best direct damage abilities (probably MagSorc, but Templars will be good too).

Anyways though, try a heavy attack DK build. I’d wager the DPS on it is actually competitive now even for PVE.

Also, note that Eruption wasn’t nerfed. It’ll be very strong for PVE.

A heavy attack build has lost over 20k dps on pts, i do a flame mage dk heavy attack build, live i get 65K, pts its down to 43K