How would you feel about a zone with minimal wayshrines?

Jaimeh

Vilahelm wrote: »

I'm not saying that wayshrines or fast travelling are bad. Nor am I saying that all zones should get rid of their wayshrines. But I think that a zone with minimal wayshrines would offer a unique kind of experience for the game.

I mostly play PvE. I rarely delve into PvP, because it's not really my thing. But I love Cyrodiil. Not because of the faction war, but because it is exciting to explore. It feels expansive. Journeys through Cyrodiil feel like an adventure. I have to plan out my trips, and while I'm travelling along them, I take the scenery in a lot more. When I reach my destination, or come across something unexpected- it feels special.

When I'm in Cyrodiil, I always find myself fantasising on a PvE zone that could be like it. A zone where the only wayshrines are in major cities. The zone would need to be large and open, but filled with goodies and incentives for players to go out and explore. Perhaps NPCs that drop special loot to hunt down? In my mind, a large zone like this would make coming across other players a special experience.

There would be some problems of course. It would be more difficult for newer players to travel who lack mount upgrades. Also, death when you do not have soul gems, or getting stuck would be extremely punishing. The solution to that, I believe, would be to introduce a marker system, where if you die or get stuck, you go to a marker that is only active when you are in its area.

Or perhaps I'm fantasising too much and this is a terrible idea in practice. How do you feel about this idea or something similar?

It depends on whether such a zone would have things like surveys, maps, etc., then having only few shrines would make things frustrating. However, what you describe is currently present to a lesser extent in Murkmire and CWC.

SeaGtGruff

There are a lot of things that are "wrong" about the way things are designed or implemented in ESO. And by "wrong" I don't mean incorrect, but illogical or nonsensical from the point of view of any imaginary in-game reality. You almost have to make up crazy excuses to explain them in a sensible way using in-game logic.

But at this stage of the game, "it is what it is," "it's the best we've got," and trying to "fix" things that are long-established and ingrained into the game would be a horrible, horrible mistake. One inescapable truth about updating a computer program is that the more you change the existing code, the more likely you are to introduce a bug.

Besides, despite the illogic and nonsense of all the things that are "wrong," they do help make the game more enjoyable (but YMMV), and of course that's why they were designed to be the way they are.

I think wayshrines are one of the things that are "wrong" in the game. Think about it. You go to some zone like Stros M'Kai, or Clockwork City, and you keep running into NPCs who are constantly griping and moaning about wanting to leave, and "Gee, I wish a boat would come," or something like that. (Of course, there's a ship sitting at the docks-- although it won't just take you somewhere whenever you want it to, which makes sense-- but there are also smaller boats with boatswains standing by ready to take anyone who asks to some other faraway land.) I don't know about you, but I just want to grab those NPCs by the shoulders, turn them so they're facing the nearest wayshrine, stand behind them stretching my arm out beside their face, point to the wayshrine, and say, "You see that thing right there? It will let you get out of here in an instant."

The excuse which explains that in-game nonsense, and which more or less conforms to in-game logic, is that wayshrines can only take you to other wayshrines you've already discovered-- except that's not entirely true, because when you start a new character in the game you have access to six "already discovered" wayshrines in the alliance zones-- one in the starter zone and one in the "first" zone of each alliance-- as well as one "already discovered" wayshrine in each DLC or chapter zone.

So the excuse to explain the hole in that first excuse could be that the NPCs who are constantly whining about wanting to leave and go elsewhere have, in fact, not already discovered any other wayshrines, whereas your brand new character has.

But that doesn't explain why none of the whiny NPCs ever take a boat or caravan to get to a different zone, or get around by foot or on a mount to discover other wayshrines within their current zone, etc.

I guess the final, catch-all excuse that plugs the holes in the other excuses, or for that matter renders them obsolete, is that some people just like to whine and will refuse to take any action that would resolve whatever situation they're whining about.

Or maybe they're not able or allowed to use the wayshrines for some reason, such as the fact that they aren't soul-shriven, or because there are regulations that make it illegal for non-adventurer or non-military common folk to use a wayshrine, etc.

Concerned mother to city guard: "What can you tell me about the fighting in Camlorn? My daughter is stationed there!"

Passing adventurer: "You see that thing over there? You can take it to go see your daughter whenever you want."

Concerned mother: "What a wonderful idea! Thank you so much!"

Later...

Concerned mother: "Hello, dear! I brought you some fresh-baked cookies!"

Daughter: "MOM?!? What are you DOING here?!? This is a MILITARY camp!!!"

Concerned mother: "So you don't want the cookies I baked for you?"

Daughter: "Mom, how many times have I written to you to explain that I never get to eat any of the cookies you've sent to me by the wandering merchants because Captain gro-Hardtush keeps eating them all?!?"

Concerned mother: "Oh, he's such a nice, sweet boy! Why haven't you ever brought him over for dinner like I've suggested?"

Daughter: "Mom, GO HOME! You're embarrassing me!"

Captain gro-Hardtush: "Is there a problem here?"

Concerned mother: "Yes, this is! It seems my loving daughter doesn't want these cookies I baked fresh for her."

Captain gro-Hardtush: "Ma'am, I'm afraid it's not safe for you here. You'll need to leave now."

Concerned mother: "Oh, okay then! I wouldn't want to get in anyone's way."

Captain gro-Hardtush: "Hold on! I'll just take these before you go..."

Anyway, the existence of the wayshrines seems a bit out-of-place, in the sense that (AFAIK) none of the NPCs seem to know anything about them, or at least never talk about them; and the fact that you can simply take a wayshrine to another zone-- even zones in other alliances-- seems contrary to storylines where you're trying to accomplish some goal in order to finally be able to leave that zone. And why don't the alliances ever invade each other by taking wayshrines?

But the wayshrines are integral to making the game more accessible, more playable, and more fun. Taking them away would be a bad move, and at this point trying to better retrofit them or explain their existence within the logic of the NPCs' in-game world would be silly.

Tekalynn

NPCs are unable to use wayshrines because they're not Vestiges, essentially:

"Lord Corvus was also a renowned conjurer, who devised and promulgated the standard "portal" spells now popularized by the Mages Guild. (His work was based on the pioneering research of the Ayleid sorcerer known to history as "The Transmigrant." But that is liquor for a different cocktail.) Corvus theorized that, if one only knew how, the wayshrines could be used as a permanent portal network by which one could travel rapidly across Tamriel. He speculated that such a "fast traveler" would need to somehow attune himself to a wayshrine, which would add its "node" to the traveler's "web of sojourn."

"However, in order to learn how to do this, the great Direnni wizard believed a mortal's soul would have to be, temporarily or permanently, "unmoored from the Mundus." I am not at all certain what that phrase means, and if Lord Corvus understood it, none of his written memoirs explain what he meant by it. Based on my studies of the notebooks left behind in Lord Corvus' workshop in Direnni Tower, proof and implementation of this theory eluded him, and eventually he abandoned it to return to perfecting variations on Koron's Peremptory Summons."

From Wayshrines of Tamriel

Gahmerdohn

It'd give so much depth to that region, I'd love it!

mague

Vilahelm wrote: »

Or perhaps I'm fantasising too much and this is a terrible idea in practice. How do you feel about this idea or something similar?

Up to you ! You can play PvE with or without weapons/armor/wayshrines/mounts. There are even boats or waggon treks if you want to use them to travel interzone. When soloing i play this way sometimes. Its is slower but more herbs, ore on the way. Sometimes with boats and sometimes with shrines. This part of the game is really "Play as you want"

barney2525

minimal wayshrines?

I dunno

I like them as tall as they are now

SeanBlader

Watchdog wrote: »

No, thanks. If not using wayshrines is your fancy, I say more power to you - don't use them.

But don't force me to do the same. Not even in that mythical one zone you talk about. You see, that zone would not be enjoyed by people like me. It would be much easier for you to simply avoid using the wayshrines. Problem solved.

This is my favorite comment, and a great example of the hypocrisy of the double standards that people don't even think about. Don't force me to go to your zone that doesn't have any fast travel, but if you want to explore the final penultimate zone in the game you are absolutely forced to PvP, even if it's against your will and you're trying to mind your own business and not bother anyone else.

So if I don't PvP, I'm essentially blocked from that zone, but hell no there can't be a zone that blocks impatient people by lacking fast travel destinations. It's a pretty typical double standard for a lot of games.

I don't have anything against Watchdog for that, I just wanted to point out the discrepancy there.

Tigerseye

No thanks.

Tigerseye

Mr_Walker wrote: »

We have one, it's called Elsweyr.

Yeah, I wonder if they are trying to move the game in a no wayshrine direction and are testing the water?

This feels suspiciously like WoW no flying, all over again...

I think it's a psychological test to see who will tolerate what.

Will the populace, as a whole, put up with things they have always had being taken away?

Who will, who won't...?

WrathOfInnos

I see what you mean about Cyrodiil, it definitely has a more epic feel due to the size and lack of fast travel. Stakes are high when you are deep in foreign territory with no transit nearby. To a lesser extent, I think Wrothgar captured a similar feeling, but in a less satisfying way. I’m not sure what exactly would need to be done to capture the adventure of Cyrodiil in a PVE zone (dangerous and rewarding at a minimum), but it could be fun.

To relate to other games, I feel like both Runescape and Minecraft have done a good job at creating locations that are difficult to get back to, and require you to be careful while there. Most of the content in ESO is just a wayshrine away. There is a fine line between difficult and tedious though, and I definitely would not want a zone that feels like doing the Psijic questline (forced monotonous “exploration” for hours).

Tigerseye

WoW no flying started with threads like this.

Suddenly, there were people demanding flying was removed.

Of course, they were just supposed to be random players, who had innocently decided, all by themselves, that they didn't want flying.

Most people didn't agree with them, but WoW did what they asked, anyway.

Yeah, right...

ulrik.igerupb16_ESO

Some zones do have some wayshrines a bit too close to eachother, others have too many. Stros M'kai and Bethnik, I'm looking at you.

yRaven

Like everyone has time to walk from place to place, also i hate to be forced on others people RP just like Necromancer bounty or people wanting Vampire to be illegal, i just want to fast play the game it's how i like it

SeaGtGruff

Tekalynn wrote: »

NPCs are unable to use wayshrines because they're not Vestiges, essentially:

Thank you.

That doesn't explain where they came from and why they were created in the first place, if the ability to use them as a fast travel network is limited to soul-shriven vestiges.

Also, if I've interpreted that correctly, it sounds like NPCs might be able to use wayshrines similarly to one of the ways that PCs can, as a point at which they can be resurrected after death-- that is, if NPCs can be resurrected after death the way PCs can, which on the surface might seem like an obvious "No, of course not!" On the other hand, allowing the idea that NPCs-- or, at least, some NPCs-- can resurrect at the closest wayshrine could be a way of explaining all those corpses of a given NPC lying about while that same NPC is happily hammering away at whatever he's hammering away at.

DarcyMardin

No thank you.

This idea brings back memories of the original Morrowind, where there were no mounts. It took forever to go anywhere. Every time I made a new character, I would usually make a Breton, because the 50 percent magic resistance meant I was only *half* blind when wearing the Boots of Blinding Speed to get around faster.

Tigerseye

yRaven wrote: »

Like everyone has time to walk from place to place, also i hate to be forced on others people RP just like Necromancer bounty or people wanting Vampire to be illegal, i just want to fast play the game it's how i like it

The sad truth is, that if they want to reduce/remove wayshrines, they will do so regardless of what any of us say/think.

They removed flying in WoW, to the consternation of the majority of their playerbase and they didn't give a cr*p how they felt, or even (apparently) that their sub numbers fell off a cliff.

Even though they did so to such an extent that they had to stop publishing them.

Shows that these games aren't, necessarily, just "innocent" money-making schemes; because, if they were, they would never even contemplate doing anything that would inevitably result in less profit, would they?

jainiadral

No thanks. Sometimes I like taking my time, sometimes I don't.

When I don't, the wayshrines are there to make whatever I'm doing faster and less tedious. For example, imagine doing the Psijic questline without wayshrines *shudder*

I like having options and choices when I play. Removing them to enforce someone else's playstyle is both limiting and infuriating.

SeaGtGruff

But Morrowind had other ways to get around quickly-- silt striders, boats, Mages Guild teleportation, the propylon network, the spells for teleporting to the nearest Dark Elf temple or Imperial shrine, plus the Mark and Recall spells. And levitation could also be a handy way to travel as the cliff racer flies, especially if you made an offering at the shrine in Vivec City which let you levitate for an extended period of time.

Ozby

Bad idea especially when the mounts are the the worst and the slowest in any MMO I've played. They don't fly the don't jump high or jump a large distance across canyons and don't glide or float over water, there all just re-skinned horses. This game is grindy enough without adding longer travel times.

Banana

My time is precious these days so i would be avoiding it

Minyassa

I read the subject line and immediately thought, "Oh, you mean Eastmarch?"

yRaven

Tigerseye wrote: »

The sad truth is, that if they want to reduce/remove wayshrines, they will do so regardless of what any of us say/think.

They removed flying in WoW, to the consternation of the majority of their playerbase and they didn't give a cr*p how they felt, or even (apparently) that their sub numbers fell off a cliff.

That's why people are moving to WoW Classic and considering the ''Normal'' WoW dead, it's generally not a good idea to force people to something

MasterSpatula

Dear.

God.

No.

This game already has far too many ways to inflate the content. Mobs every six steps to make things take longer than they have to, dragons and keeps that require stupendous rides to reach, etc. etc. etc. I'd prefer a touch of streamlining to increasing the dragging-things-out factor.

menathradiel

I have one character who travels by foot, horse, cart, boat, and never uses wayshrines; she even walks everywhere instead of running. That said, I don't think I would like a zone that didn't have wayshrines, especially if it had surveys to collect. I already trash a certain number of Vvardenfell surveys because collecting them is tedious.

If you feel like exploring a zone slowly, there is nothing to prevent you from choosing to do as I have done and not use the wayshrine system.

Elsonso

Mr_Walker wrote: »

We have one, it's called Elsweyr.

This explains your forum name!

Vilahelm wrote: »

I see your point, but I think having the choice would defeat the purpose of such a zone. It would remove that 'frontier feel' from it. Sometimes, forcing players to do things isn't always a bad thing. It would force players to coordinate and plan their journeys in my mind. Like how people coordinate in Cyrodiil. If wayshrines were available, then groups would always use them.

I am sure that wayshrines would be very popular in Cyrodiil, given the "horse simulator" comments that tend to come from the people who hang out in there.

As an aside, after thousands of years of habitation, the idea of a "frontier" in Tamriel is merely a reflection of ignorance on the part of the traveler. Someone has lived there most of that time, and to them, it is home.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I think wayshrines are one of the things that are "wrong" in the game.

Anyway, the existence of the wayshrines seems a bit out-of-place, in the sense that (AFAIK) none of the NPCs seem to know anything about them, or at least never talk about them; and the fact that you can simply take a wayshrine to another zone-- even zones in other alliances-- seems contrary to storylines where you're trying to accomplish some goal in order to finally be able to leave that zone. And why don't the alliances ever invade each other by taking wayshrines?

But the wayshrines are integral to making the game more accessible, more playable, and more fun. Taking them away would be a bad move, and at this point trying to better retrofit them or explain their existence within the logic of the NPCs' in-game world would be silly.

One of the interesting things about the original Morrowind was the variety of transportation methods. Mage's guild, silt striders, boats, and Propylon Chambers provided an in-world means of travel, but it was like plotting a course across a city using several bus routes. I am sure some players got confused, frustrated, and lost. After all, BGS ditched that for Oblivion and replaced it with a "know of it, go to it" extra-world fast travel that persisted into Skyrim.

Honestly, I can't see half the players of Skyrim tolerating being limited to an in-game travel system, and given the in-game travel system that came with Skyrim, it sounds like BGS agreed.

In ESO, they serve a dual purpose of fast travel and safe respawn. The latter seems to be more solidly positioned in the game, making me think that was the main purpose of wayshrines and fast travel was added later. In both roles, they are clearly outside of the game world.

I do think that ESO would have been better served by an in-game network of transportation (in and between zones) that appeared to follow main roads and commerce paths and, while just as instantaneous, was more grounded in the game world rather than being outside of it. I would have eliminated the wayshrine fast travel, although I would have retained their locations and respawn purpose.

redlink1979

Zone shrines are more than fine as they are.
If a player doesn't want to use the shrines because it ruins the "immersion", then just pick the mount and travel that way.

luen79rwb17_ESO

It'd be hell. Malabal Tor is a good example.

AlnilamE

As some people already mentionned, Elsweyr (and IMO Morrowind and Summerset) have very sparse wayshrines based on their geography. As do Murkmire and Gold Coast. There's a lot of riding around there.

And you can choose to not use waysrhines. I know of people who do this. They walk everywhere.

SeanBlader wrote: »

Watchdog wrote: »

No, thanks. If not using wayshrines is your fancy, I say more power to you - don't use them.

But don't force me to do the same. Not even in that mythical one zone you talk about. You see, that zone would not be enjoyed by people like me. It would be much easier for you to simply avoid using the wayshrines. Problem solved.

This is my favorite comment, and a great example of the hypocrisy of the double standards that people don't even think about. Don't force me to go to your zone that doesn't have any fast travel, but if you want to explore the final penultimate zone in the game you are absolutely forced to PvP, even if it's against your will and you're trying to mind your own business and not bother anyone else.

So if I don't PvP, I'm essentially blocked from that zone, but hell no there can't be a zone that blocks impatient people by lacking fast travel destinations. It's a pretty typical double standard for a lot of games.

I don't have anything against Watchdog for that, I just wanted to point out the discrepancy there.

Well, if they implemented such a zone, I would probably go there once, discover everything and then leave. Which is what a lot of PvErs do with Cyrodiil. You can do all the PvE there and mostly be undisturbed. I've done it on several characters.

Though you need to be prepared, if the map is not in your favour, that you may be killed after having ridden 10 minutes to your destination at the other end of the map.

GreenhaloX

Just don't use the wayshrines. Just trot about everywhere. Don't look or think about those wayshrines in the zone. Same affect..

Wandering_Immigrant

lordrichter wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

We have one, it's called Elsweyr.

This explains your forum name!

Vilahelm wrote: »

I see your point, but I think having the choice would defeat the purpose of such a zone. It would remove that 'frontier feel' from it. Sometimes, forcing players to do things isn't always a bad thing. It would force players to coordinate and plan their journeys in my mind. Like how people coordinate in Cyrodiil. If wayshrines were available, then groups would always use them.

I am sure that wayshrines would be very popular in Cyrodiil, given the "horse simulator" comments that tend to come from the people who hang out in there.

As an aside, after thousands of years of habitation, the idea of a "frontier" in Tamriel is merely a reflection of ignorance on the part of the traveler. Someone has lived there most of that time, and to them, it is home.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I think wayshrines are one of the things that are "wrong" in the game.

Anyway, the existence of the wayshrines seems a bit out-of-place, in the sense that (AFAIK) none of the NPCs seem to know anything about them, or at least never talk about them; and the fact that you can simply take a wayshrine to another zone-- even zones in other alliances-- seems contrary to storylines where you're trying to accomplish some goal in order to finally be able to leave that zone. And why don't the alliances ever invade each other by taking wayshrines?

But the wayshrines are integral to making the game more accessible, more playable, and more fun. Taking them away would be a bad move, and at this point trying to better retrofit them or explain their existence within the logic of the NPCs' in-game world would be silly.

One of the interesting things about the original Morrowind was the variety of transportation methods. Mage's guild, silt striders, boats, and Propylon Chambers provided an in-world means of travel, but it was like plotting a course across a city using several bus routes. I am sure some players got confused, frustrated, and lost. After all, BGS ditched that for Oblivion and replaced it with a "know of it, go to it" extra-world fast travel that persisted into Skyrim.

Honestly, I can't see half the players of Skyrim tolerating being limited to an in-game travel system, and given the in-game travel system that came with Skyrim, it sounds like BGS agreed.

In ESO, they serve a dual purpose of fast travel and safe respawn. The latter seems to be more solidly positioned in the game, making me think that was the main purpose of wayshrines and fast travel was added later. In both roles, they are clearly outside of the game world.

I do think that ESO would have been better served by an in-game network of transportation (in and between zones) that appeared to follow main roads and commerce paths and, while just as instantaneous, was more grounded in the game world rather than being outside of it. I would have eliminated the wayshrine fast travel, although I would have retained their locations and respawn purpose.

Well, I'm sure if they were to introduce a pot of gold in the center of every major city for every player to freely drawl from every time they needed funds, that would become pretty popular too.

I agree though with most of what you say, I prefer when a game uses a more organic system of transportation. Whether people would call it immersion or not I just think it makes the world feel more thoughtfully planned and fleshed out as opposed to a bunch of randomly placed spawn points, which to me feels like the lazy route (on the dev side).

Honestly ESO was the first MMO I played that had such an abundance of fast-travel points, and at first I was a bit put-off by it. But context is everything, and in the other ones I've played once you got to your destination you'd generally be plopped down for the long-haul, so whether you were going to do whatever endgame content you were involved in, or doing an event with your social guild, or just meeting up with a leveling party or even just doing a bit of farming, once you got into whatever you headed out to do your travel time would become inconsequential.

Whereas ESO's content is set up as more of a series of quick hits, where you go somewhere to do something and then you're on to the next thing, and then the next after that. Dragons, for example, the reason it's important to get to them ASAP is because the fight rarely lasts more than 5 minutes. So being able to arrive quickly means the difference between participating or missing out.

It's important for a game's travel time to align with the pacing at which the game's content is consumed, and in that sense I think ESO does a good job. Even taking into account Cyrodiil being the exception by not having the abundant fast travel. Of course, not every siege fight is an epic drawn out battle, but throughout the course of a good evening there you'll often get enough of those fights to where the time you spent travelling between keeps feels inconsequential.