DOTs are not the problem , lack of purge is.

Skwor

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Everyone has access to purge ... whether it be a slotted skill or through a specific gear set.

Not wanting to use that accessibility (in favor of higher damage or sustain) is a choice for every player, including the OP.

In other words, you're asking for a handout from ZOS when the option is already there for you.

OP just asks for stamina purge which will have "standard 15% stamina cost reduction" and another 10-12% of cost reduction due to medium armor passive. Then just make efficient purge stamina morph. As for now you propose stamina to heavily invest in off-resource. You may say that magicka has to invest to off-resource too to break free/roll-dodge - true, but magicka doesn't use stamina utility skills, so if you need to use magicka utility skills AND purge you need to have very high magicka recovery.

Btw, there is rather easy adaption for all this - prisoner's set + ranged build. Now imagine all stamina will be sprinting around in prisoner's with bow/bow, spam new caltrops all over the territory to have ranged major fracture and spam caustic arrow (which every PVE-er farms right now for PVE) with snipe and soul trap, i'm just interested who you will be able to kill then if everybody will be ranged and at speed cap.

Game is build on counterplay between ranged and melee, if everyone will run ranged, disengaging as soon as they out of magicka for purge... this will be a real fun game (no).

Tell me when as a magica toon I will get to be able to dodge roll or break free from CC as a effective counterplay?

Jodynn

I agree every class needs a self purge of some type, purge from support is 5k for efficient and as a solo dps in cyrodil I can use that... one or two times with also defending and attacking before I'm out of magicka.

exeeter702

J2JMC wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

RebornRequiem wrote: »

Purge shouldnt be available to everyone, at least not in the way everyone can use it efficiently. It is fine, if you build for using the alliance purge. Otherwise it is better, if cleansing is exclusive to a few classes.

why?

Because limiting the accessibility of skills allows ZOS to create defined strengths and weaknesses which promotes build diversity and class identity. This whole "play as you want, every class needs to be able to do everything mentality" is why classes get nerfed into the ground. We can't have skills like wings, and also expect to do high burst damage. We can't have streak and shields, while also expecting good healing. We can't have cloak, while also expecting to be tanky. When class weaknesses start getting covered up, ZOS hits their signature playstyles so the "play as you want" people don't get affected. Since you main a sorc, you must realize how absolutely dumb it is that sorcs not only lost major sorcery, but then lost their major sorcery skill to a group AOE heal. But this is what happens when people think classes should be able to do everything.

So no, I'd prefer purge wasn't easily accessible for all specs. Because then, instead of nerfing purge, they're just going to nerf whichever class becomes broken since they shouldn't have had such easy access to purge in the first place.

Sorry but I strongly disagree, this is not that kind of mmo and it has never been despite the illusion created by lopsided design. There are only 3 roles to adhere to in this game since it adopts the holy trinity format. Had this been a more lateral sandbox esque type of mmo with no defined role design where group composition was ultimately a toss up and the devs stuck with a "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" ideology much akin to the old school pre wow mmos like 11 and EQ, there may be a case to make. But this game only has so many build avenues to fufilll a given role. The uniqueness of each class in these types of mmos, comes in the form of HOW they are executed, not what exclusive access to a critical utiltiy they have that is useful for a universally present problem the game employs. See templars and shards as an example. If you find that templars being the only viable healer in an mmo that (at the time) only had 4 classes than im not sure what to tell you.

Unique tools being brought to the table for a group is absolutely ideal if it means said tools enables the group to interface with an obstacle in a more concise / efficient manner. Having a monopoly on something that is almost mandatory as an answer to a game wide issue, especially something as common as debuff cleansing is not ideal.

The crux of the issue is that simply put, an mmo that operates exclusively on a single GCD to govern ability use was always going to have problems creating an interesting attrition interaction between players applying and purging debuffs. In more traditional mmos with intentionally balanced abikity CDs, this interaction is engaging because there is decision making and counter play depending on when you choose to use certian utilities.

In ESO, crucial debuffs are applicable every second without any form of diminishing returns and the option to cleanse them cannot keep up. ZOS attempted to restrict this much in the way they balance every power budget, via resource cost, which is fruitless because if a player engages in that option, its always at a net loss since you sre never going to win that trade of debuff application vs debuff cleanse, and when your resources are dry, you are dead anyways and if the cleanses were affordable in repeated use, it would invalidate debuffs alltogether.

MartiniDaniels

Skwor wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Everyone has access to purge ... whether it be a slotted skill or through a specific gear set.

Not wanting to use that accessibility (in favor of higher damage or sustain) is a choice for every player, including the OP.

In other words, you're asking for a handout from ZOS when the option is already there for you.

OP just asks for stamina purge which will have "standard 15% stamina cost reduction" and another 10-12% of cost reduction due to medium armor passive. Then just make efficient purge stamina morph. As for now you propose stamina to heavily invest in off-resource. You may say that magicka has to invest to off-resource too to break free/roll-dodge - true, but magicka doesn't use stamina utility skills, so if you need to use magicka utility skills AND purge you need to have very high magicka recovery.

Btw, there is rather easy adaption for all this - prisoner's set + ranged build. Now imagine all stamina will be sprinting around in prisoner's with bow/bow, spam new caltrops all over the territory to have ranged major fracture and spam caustic arrow (which every PVE-er farms right now for PVE) with snipe and soul trap, i'm just interested who you will be able to kill then if everybody will be ranged and at speed cap.

Game is build on counterplay between ranged and melee, if everyone will run ranged, disengaging as soon as they out of magicka for purge... this will be a real fun game (no).

Tell me when as a magica toon I will get to be able to dodge roll or break free from CC as a effective counterplay?

I'm sure you know this: to effectively dodge roll/break free magicka toon uses shacklebreaker or bloodspawn or tri-stat food, pick 2 of 3 and you are good to go. Dunmer and altmer have their stamina bonuses, breton is good in PVP as it is with those extra resists.
Now stamina will probably use shacklebreaker as must have too or prisoner's. Tbh, I don't think that this situation with dots can't be adapted. Players can adapt, but result will be boring game and I don't think that magicka will like it.

Chilly-McFreeze

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

There is a skill called purge, available to everyone, that does that, and you have like 3 sets with built-in purge effects.

How often can you purge on a stam toon before you're stripped of your mag pool?

E: and about the sets: they are all magicka based too.

How often can you dodge roll, break free, or sneak on a Magicka toon?

Magicka dodge roll and break free when?

Sounds like you are now starting to experience what Magicka players had to experience with CC for years.

L2P Stamina boys! Oh wait I am one too. LUL

"HuRr DuRr, pAyBaCkTiMe."
Btw you're a little late, the same comment was made a few hours ago.

I wanted to avoid reacting to such answers but here we go. I keep it short and simple.
I am all for build diversity with all pros and cons. Just because I stated the obvious, that those purging sets and the support skill are not efficient on stam builds doesn't mean I demand a stam purge.

To recommend some stam toons to wear what, Stendarr's Embrace, is like answering the likes of you to just slot Crusader on your magtoon. Oh all the offstats are letting you dodge roll so much more and then there is the prolonged dodge window. It must be heaven sent for anyone having issues with dodging and breaking free, right?

Lower the costs of alliance war purge to the equivalent of dodge and maybe we can talk. Ah, and make your magbuild utility skills all cost stam too just to even the odds, right? No, I don't think so. Now leave your sass at the door.

That kind of behavior goes both ways. Triggerpost over.

FearlessOne_2014

I think there is nothing but a learn 2 adapt problem here.

Dodge Roll (Best Defense in the game), Break Free, Sneak, Bash, and Sprint for Stamina based builds.

Purge for Magicka based builds.

Now stamina boys are crying because they now have do what Magicka has to do for years? LUL

HowlKimchi

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I think there is nothing but a learn 2 adapt problem here.

Dodge Roll (Best Defense in the game), Break Free, Sneak, Bash, and Sprint for Stamina based builds.

Purge for Magicka based builds.

Now stamina boys are crying because they now have do what Magicka has to do for years? LUL

This isn't a magicka vs stamina issue tho.

Kadoin

HaruKamui wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I think there is nothing but a learn 2 adapt problem here.

Dodge Roll (Best Defense in the game), Break Free, Sneak, Bash, and Sprint for Stamina based builds.

Purge for Magicka based builds.

Now stamina boys are crying because they now have do what Magicka has to do for years? LUL

This isn't a magicka vs stamina issue tho.

lol..keep pretending. Last I checked DoTs make up a large portion of mag damage, and what's not a DoT is either weak or an AoE, but yeah you can keep pretending that is not the case.

Chilly-McFreeze

Kadoin wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I think there is nothing but a learn 2 adapt problem here.

Dodge Roll (Best Defense in the game), Break Free, Sneak, Bash, and Sprint for Stamina based builds.

Purge for Magicka based builds.

Now stamina boys are crying because they now have do what Magicka has to do for years? LUL

This isn't a magicka vs stamina issue tho.

lol..keep pretending. Last I checked DoTs make up a large portion of mag damage, and what's not a DoT is either weak or an AoE, but yeah you can keep pretending that is not the case.

Because stamina DoT builds are so unheared of?

Skwor

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Everyone has access to purge ... whether it be a slotted skill or through a specific gear set.

Not wanting to use that accessibility (in favor of higher damage or sustain) is a choice for every player, including the OP.

In other words, you're asking for a handout from ZOS when the option is already there for you.

OP just asks for stamina purge which will have "standard 15% stamina cost reduction" and another 10-12% of cost reduction due to medium armor passive. Then just make efficient purge stamina morph. As for now you propose stamina to heavily invest in off-resource. You may say that magicka has to invest to off-resource too to break free/roll-dodge - true, but magicka doesn't use stamina utility skills, so if you need to use magicka utility skills AND purge you need to have very high magicka recovery.

Btw, there is rather easy adaption for all this - prisoner's set + ranged build. Now imagine all stamina will be sprinting around in prisoner's with bow/bow, spam new caltrops all over the territory to have ranged major fracture and spam caustic arrow (which every PVE-er farms right now for PVE) with snipe and soul trap, i'm just interested who you will be able to kill then if everybody will be ranged and at speed cap.

Game is build on counterplay between ranged and melee, if everyone will run ranged, disengaging as soon as they out of magicka for purge... this will be a real fun game (no).

Tell me when as a magica toon I will get to be able to dodge roll or break free from CC as a effective counterplay?

I'm sure you know this: to effectively dodge roll/break free magicka toon uses shacklebreaker or bloodspawn or tri-stat food, pick 2 of 3 and you are good to go. Dunmer and altmer have their stamina bonuses, breton is good in PVP as it is with those extra resists.
Now stamina will probably use shacklebreaker as must have too or prisoner's. Tbh, I don't think that this situation with dots can't be adapted. Players can adapt, but result will be boring game and I don't think that magicka will like it.

I do and just like magica, stamina players need to use those tools not ask for special skills. This change was long overdue, magica has dealt with this on CC since the beginning and this should have been the trade off for stamina a long time ago.

Skwor

HaruKamui wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I think there is nothing but a learn 2 adapt problem here.

Dodge Roll (Best Defense in the game), Break Free, Sneak, Bash, and Sprint for Stamina based builds.

Purge for Magicka based builds.

Now stamina boys are crying because they now have do what Magicka has to do for years? LUL

This isn't a magicka vs stamina issue tho.

Actually yes it is.

Kadoin

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I think there is nothing but a learn 2 adapt problem here.

Dodge Roll (Best Defense in the game), Break Free, Sneak, Bash, and Sprint for Stamina based builds.

Purge for Magicka based builds.

Now stamina boys are crying because they now have do what Magicka has to do for years? LUL

This isn't a magicka vs stamina issue tho.

lol..keep pretending. Last I checked DoTs make up a large portion of mag damage, and what's not a DoT is either weak or an AoE, but yeah you can keep pretending that is not the case.

Because stamina DoT builds are so unheared of?

You have the option not to though For mag its not the same. I would prefer if ZOS put a direct damage morph of all of the class DoTs they push on mag.

Would be better for my hybrid, which of course I have to advocate buffing...Can't post without my agenda being known!

gepe87

Purge excuses are like those about det potion countering cloak.
If purge was cheap (or at same cost as ritual) it would be a nice start, but stams would suffer a lot (im not biased about stam because im only mag player)
The main problem is DOT meta: ZoS had 5 weeks on pts to take feedback. They did nothing and they will nerf dot abilities in 1 or 2 weeks.
Conclusion: they never learn and their combat strategy doesnt match with established combat that have 5 development years .

Vapirko

No, as of this patch, dots are very much the problem.

J2JMC

exeeter702 wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

RebornRequiem wrote: »

Purge shouldnt be available to everyone, at least not in the way everyone can use it efficiently. It is fine, if you build for using the alliance purge. Otherwise it is better, if cleansing is exclusive to a few classes.

why?

Because limiting the accessibility of skills allows ZOS to create defined strengths and weaknesses which promotes build diversity and class identity. This whole "play as you want, every class needs to be able to do everything mentality" is why classes get nerfed into the ground. We can't have skills like wings, and also expect to do high burst damage. We can't have streak and shields, while also expecting good healing. We can't have cloak, while also expecting to be tanky. When class weaknesses start getting covered up, ZOS hits their signature playstyles so the "play as you want" people don't get affected. Since you main a sorc, you must realize how absolutely dumb it is that sorcs not only lost major sorcery, but then lost their major sorcery skill to a group AOE heal. But this is what happens when people think classes should be able to do everything.

So no, I'd prefer purge wasn't easily accessible for all specs. Because then, instead of nerfing purge, they're just going to nerf whichever class becomes broken since they shouldn't have had such easy access to purge in the first place.

Sorry but I strongly disagree, this is not that kind of mmo and it has never been despite the illusion created by lopsided design. There are only 3 roles to adhere to in this game since it adopts the holy trinity format. Had this been a more lateral sandbox esque type of mmo with no defined role design where group composition was ultimately a toss up and the devs stuck with a "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" ideology much akin to the old school pre wow mmos like 11 and EQ, there may be a case to make. But this game only has so many build avenues to fufilll a given role. The uniqueness of each class in these types of mmos, comes in the form of HOW they are executed, not what exclusive access to a critical utiltiy they have that is useful for a universally present problem the game employs. See templars and shards as an example. If you find that templars being the only viable healer in an mmo that (at the time) only had 4 classes than im not sure what to tell you.

I'm not asking for exclusive access to universal problems for individual classes. I specifically used the term spec because there maybe certain classes that perform fine with a purge if they focus on one resource, but if they focus on the other resource, having a purge would make them overperform.

Unique tools being brought to the table for a group is absolutely ideal if it means said tools enables the group to interface with an obstacle in a more concise / efficient manner. Having a monopoly on something that is almost mandatory as an answer to a game wide issue, especially something as common as debuff cleansing is not ideal.

I'm not suggesting a monopoly on debuff cleansing. For this case in particular, I think the ability to efficiently utilize a purge for some specs would make those specs overperform if they were designed with the fact that efficient purges were not easily available to that spec at the time of design. Hell, even when the classes were knowingly designed with purge in mind some specs still caused a problem (looking at you 2015 stamblade).

The crux of the issue is that simply put, an mmo that operates exclusively on a single GCD to govern ability use was always going to have problems creating an interesting attrition interaction between players applying and purging debuffs. In more traditional mmos with intentionally balanced abikity CDs, this interaction is engaging because there is decision making and counter play depending on when you choose to use certian utilities.

In ESO, crucial debuffs are applicable every second without any form of diminishing returns and the option to cleanse them cannot keep up. ZOS attempted to restrict this much in the way they balance every power budget, via resource cost, which is fruitless because if a player engages in that option, its always at a net loss since you sre never going to win that trade of debuff application vs debuff cleanse, and when your resources are dry, you are dead anyways and if the cleanses were affordable in repeated use, it would invalidate debuffs alltogether.

I don't disagree here. Balancing the interaction on one global cooldown is hard. ZOS has multiple options between using resource fatigue, backloading the damage of dots, and tying the effects of certain abilities to specific conditions or other abilities (e.g., the necro boneyard). However, I have a feeling these options would not be enjoyed by the community.

WaltherCarraway

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I think there is nothing but a learn 2 adapt problem here.

Dodge Roll (Best Defense in the game), Break Free, Sneak, Bash, and Sprint for Stamina based builds.

Purge for Magicka based builds.

Now stamina boys are crying because they now have do what Magicka has to do for years? LUL

This isn't a magicka vs stamina issue tho.

lol..keep pretending. Last I checked DoTs make up a large portion of mag damage, and what's not a DoT is either weak or an AoE, but yeah you can keep pretending that is not the case.

Because stamina DoT builds are so unheared of?

Bleed is direct damage ikr.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

There is a skill called purge, available to everyone, that does that, and you have like 3 sets with built-in purge effects.

How often can you purge on a stam toon before you're stripped of your mag pool?

E: and about the sets: they are all magicka based too.

last I checked u cant remove diseases with sheer stamina and workout...so yeah.

Zevrro

Elwendryll wrote: »

There is a skill called purge, available to everyone, that does that, and you have like 3 sets with built-in purge effects : Curse Eater, Stendarr's Embrace, Wyrd Tree's Blessing.

I'm amazed at how many people agree with this comment. Purge is expensive and mostly a wasted cast unless you are built to spam it. No solo player is going to slot purge so they can remove dots that will be instantly reapplied. I can't think of a stupider thing to suggest to counter dots. Purge is only useful if you're in an organised group.

JonnytheKing

MaleAmazon wrote: »

TBH OP is right though; same as Nightblades being the only class with a good invisibility (spammable skill vs drink a potion with 45 sec cooldown).

Now, I don´t mind that templars have a better purge skill than other classes, or that nightblades are better at stealth.

I mind that there is no generic version of these.

At the moment the purge skill is a group skill.

I´d be much in favour of putting in a generic purge, stealth etc in, for example, the FG and MG skillines. They have been moving in that direction a little bit though.

im not saying we all need a better purge then temps , we just all need one, necro and wardens have one , sorcs and NB dont

JonnytheKing

Kadoin wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

Kagukan wrote: »

After a couple of days in Cyrodiil CP 30 day, DoT's are not as bad as many here make them seem. You should be able to survive easily with one or maybe two players placing DoT's on you. If you are getting many players placing DoT's on you then you are being focused and should die or at least be forced to retreat.

u shouldnt die to trash players becouse u have no way to counter, and u cant LOS dots that half the problem

Hm...So it is about having to take damage from behind a tree. Wow.

LOL yer when its 1or 2v10 I'm not going to stand in the open and let people free cast on me, that's just dumb. los is a big and one of the most important things in PVP that zergers just don't understand

master_vanargand

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I think there is nothing but a learn 2 adapt problem here.

Dodge Roll (Best Defense in the game), Break Free, Sneak, Bash, and Sprint for Stamina based builds.

Purge for Magicka based builds.

Now stamina boys are crying because they now have do what Magicka has to do for years? LUL

Roll Dodge? lololololololol
Roll Dodge can't avoid DoT and AoE.
You overestimate Roll Dodge.

Casterial

*templar* laughs

Cinbri

Playing on noCP in light armor, with remorphed into Ritual of Retribution that purge 2 debuffs for 4006 mana and have zero problems fighting against dots.
Even when i see 2xEntropy + 2xTrap in debuff tracker - it still less dangerous than spam of Snipes or other instant cast burst ability.

Casterial

Cinbri wrote: »

Playing on noCP in light armor, with remorphed into Ritual of Retribution that purge 2 debuffs for 4006 mana and have zero problems fighting against dots.

The thing is, you have purge you're a templar.

Sandman929

It seems more like the real problem is that people need to adjust their bite sizes to their reduced chewing capacity

Cinbri

Casterial wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Playing on noCP in light armor, with remorphed into Ritual of Retribution that purge 2 debuffs for 4006 mana and have zero problems fighting against dots.

The thing is, you have purge you're a templar.

Ye, but as I said I switched to morph that cleanse only 2 effects (most of time it jsut clear snares or wasted on uncleansable ground debuffs) and this update it cost even higher than BoL so spam it on noCP is unsustainable, yet I dont feel need of using morph that purge 5 effects to fight dots. Maybe zerglings jsut taht bad that their dots are weak but for now I dont feel that dots are any super threat.

olsborg

Trancestor wrote: »

Dots are the problem.

They are. All you see in pvp now are dots, if youre not a dot-focused build youre doing it wrong now, I never enjoyed dot builds and dont think i ever will.