why the DoT meta sucks, unequal opportunity, not all classes are born equal

Wing

some (templar, necromancer) having amazing purges and suffer not.
some (nightblade) simply suppress, and laugh in the dark.

and others (sorc, dk, warden) simply die at its hands.

AKA, brutal damage that destroys some classes while leaving others completely unaffected is not cool.

BomblePants

I’m on console so I can’t physically test this for myself.... but can’t you just use (actual) ‘purge’ from alliance skill line if that is the case?

Chilly-McFreeze

BomblePants wrote: »

I’m on console so I can’t physically test this for myself.... but can’t you just use (actual) ‘purge’ from alliance skill line if that is the case?

Good luck with that on stam.

BomblePants

Just asking..... like I said I don’t have SB live and am just wondering what is going on for you guys on PC....and how it will work for console

Mayrael

Hmmm... Warden? Heal it? You literally have tree dedicated to it and skill with no cost that removes 1 negative effect (just Magicka). DKs, well Magicka ones shouldn't complain they have a lot of heals options to. MagSorcs? Combine shield with new rapid regen, maybe it's time to stop shieldstack? Stam sorc. Critical surge, vigor, dark deal, rally, quite few options Stam DKs? I'll guess you die :P

kargen27

If the classes were equal it would be boring. Imagine playing scissor scissor scissor instead of rock paper scissor.

Uryel

Wing wrote: »

some (templar, necromancer) having amazing purges and suffer not.
some (nightblade) simply suppress, and laugh in the dark.

and others (sorc, dk, warden) simply die at its hands.

AKA, brutal damage that destroys some classes while leaving others completely unaffected is not cool.

'lo and behold, friends ! This post refers to PvP only stuff, ignoring the other 98% of the game, and says "this new update is baaaad !".

This is a rare sight indeed. Usually, it's us PvE folk who have to complain about that sort of things. I'm impressed.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Wing wrote: »

some (templar, necromancer) having amazing purges and suffer not.
some (nightblade) simply suppress, and laugh in the dark.

and others (sorc, dk, warden) simply die at its hands.

AKA, brutal damage that destroys some classes while leaving others completely unaffected is not cool.

All classes have access to purging. Some innate at class others is found on the Alliance skills.
Similarly some classes have innate major fracture (DK, Warden, NB) others get if from razor caltrops (Templar, Sorc) now.

And the list is pretty long.

MajBludd

Reduce the cost of purge from alliance skill line so it can be used by stam classes.

@Uryel here we go with the none constructive whining about pvp did this or did that.
Plenty of things are and have been nerfed due to pve. If I remember correctly a dev stated that a few dlcs ago the nerfs were directly because of pve power creep.

Derra

BomblePants wrote: »

Just asking..... like I said I don’t have SB live and am just wondering what is going on for you guys on PC....and how it will work for console

Alliance war purge cost just recently got increased again. It removes 40% less effects than the templar purge for 25% more cost and no additional benefits.

It´s terrible from a single player perspective.

Chilly-McFreeze

Mayrael wrote: »

Hmmm... Warden? Heal it? You literally have tree dedicated to it and skill with no cost that removes 1 negative effect (just Magicka). DKs, well Magicka ones shouldn't complain they have a lot of heals options to. MagSorcs? Combine shield with new rapid regen, maybe it's time to stop shieldstack? Stam sorc. Critical surge, vigor, dark deal, rally, quite few options Stam DKs? I'll guess you die :P

Didn't know Vigor and Rally where StamSorc exclusive and couldn't be used by a class with more healing buffs ;-)
And I truely doubt we will see much shieldstacking after ZOS inapproriately touched them on all parameters. You know, cost increase, resource scaling, magicka return. Not to start with bar space issues. that arise from having to slot Crit over Power Surge + a source of major sorcery + rapid regen etc.

But I'm curious how that all will play out. Maybe it's just hot fuzz, maybe it's not. Time will tell.

Alienoutlaw

BomblePants wrote: »

I’m on console so I can’t physically test this for myself.... but can’t you just use (actual) ‘purge’ from alliance skill line if that is the case?

purge was nerfed

Alienoutlaw

kargen27 wrote: »

If the classes were equal it would be boring. Imagine playing scissor scissor scissor instead of rock paper scissor.

you mean EVERYONE wearing the same armour running the same skills? abit like the sheep that follow certain "youtube class reps" do?

Uryel

MajBludd wrote: »

@Uryel here we go with the none constructive whining about pvp did this or did that.
Plenty of things are and have been nerfed due to pve. If I remember correctly a dev stated that a few dlcs ago the nerfs were directly because of pve power creep.

They mentionned power creep, never said anything about PvE. Power creep is a non issue in PvE. You're that much stronger as time passes ? So what, it's not like it's gonna hurt anyone. You're the amazing hero who saved the world several time, it's expected that you became kinda strong. Also, that was a pretty shallow excuse. Maybe being TOO powerful can casue some issues, allright, but if people didn't put the emphasis on maxing their DPS to go around poorly designed mechanics, and if devs didn't comply to remove yet again other PVP complaints, that would not be the case.

"Snipe is OP, nerf it !" was never an outcry form the PvE people. It was from little *** who can't stand having to slot ONE counter to range attack because it might cramp their oh-so-precious DPS. As a result, snipe was nerfed, along with the race that used it best, who lost not only their bonus damage from stealth, but also their stealth altogether.

"Pets sorcs are abusing line of sight !" was never a PvE issue either. In my book, it's not even an issue. If making smart use of tactical positioning is "abuse", it goes a long way showing how brainless the whiners are. But hey, look at that, pet sorcs got nerfed.

"Argonians are overpowered with their multiple resists and their OP potion skill thingie" comes from PvP too. So they removbed on of the resists, the one that was most closely tied to the lore, making lots of quest dialogs inconsistents now, and nerfed the potion thingie.

"Nerf Nightblades" under a zillion different forms, always from PvP too. Sore losers just can't stand having to slot a detect skill to keep themselves safe, that's one less skill for DPS. Top assassination skill is now a crappy tank skill, path of shadow has been gutted because it wasn't bringing something unique to the party (but the equivalent Templar skill remains), debuffs have been spread on so many skills that solo / duo play means not being able to bring a whole toolkit, buffs are even more scarce.

I could go on all day. PvP whining is THE most important cause of nerfs, and that's because you PvP *** don't want balance or a fair fight, you just want to win.

MajBludd

@Uryel go outside and take a break. If you get that upset over a game you need a break. Nerfs were made due to pve and pvp in the past.

Power creep is an issue in pve. An npc can't complain about it but people can surely brag how they smashed the newest trial with 4 dps. That tells the dev's their content is too easy due to power creep.

Why not try and think of a solution to ops problem instead of throwing a tantrum?
Do some research into why skills were nerfed, now and in the past, and you'll see not everything is because of pvp.

Edit "you just want to win', you say? No I want a fun fight win or lose and I've never called for anything to be nerfed. Have you?

Gandrhulf_Harbard

@Uryel

100% agree.

If PvPers genuinely wanted a "fair fight" they wouldn't PvP in a game where Class, Gear and Build can affect so much.

They'd go play some form of Shooter PvP where everyone is close to equal and the major difference is Player Skill.


All The Best

redlink1979

The usual contradictions: "I want uniqueness features in every class but I come here and complain that every class should be similar to each other..."

Chilly-McFreeze

"Oh no, current raids are 8x stamcro/magsorc/magblade etc, how is that fair?"
"Class X is top DPS, why should I run anything else?"
"Why am I kicked on my Sorc healer?"
"Why people only want DK tanks?"
"Arena weapons are too mandatory for good dps!"
"With so much offheals from dps healers are usless!"
"It's all about how much dps I can output, mechanics are simply skipped."
"Overland is too easy!"

Said noone ever, right?

Alienoutlaw

makes me laugh all the calls for the pet nerf because of LOS abuse yet they have to hug a rock in PvP to fight, all i fair in love and war cant whinge about something you do yourself

Gandrhulf_Harbard

MajBludd wrote: »

Power creep is an issue in pve. An npc can't complain about it but people can surely brag how they smashed the newest trial with 4 dps. That tells the dev's their content is too easy due to power creep.

No.

That tells us the Devs are not intelligent enough to design genuinely challenging content that doesn't just involve giving the Mob a huge stack of health.

Look back to something like Fellowship Manoeuvres is LOTRO where players had to work in unison to trigger certain effects to defeat the Mobs.

All The Best

Alienoutlaw

PvE's HAVE to pvp for certain skills like barrier,war horn, vigor and purge that are locked behind the PvP wall.

edited mis-read post sorry

Wing

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

MajBludd wrote: »

Power creep is an issue in pve. An npc can't complain about it but people can surely brag how they smashed the newest trial with 4 dps. That tells the dev's their content is too easy due to power creep.

No.

That tells us the Devs are not intelligent enough to design genuinely challenging content that doesn't just involve giving the Mob a huge stack of health.

Look back to something like Fellowship Manoeuvres is LOTRO where players had to work in unison to trigger certain effects to defeat the Mobs.

All The Best

I prefer mechanics based fights to an extent, they can be a mess or too complicated or actually be a DPS check in disguise.

however recently in Warframe they added the Ropololyst that had a pretty simple mechanic of maneuvering to these large things, getting it too shoot at them, jumping on it and crashing it into them, and repeat 3 times then final kill.

compared to the DPS checks of the previous boss fights it was very fun. the setting was memorable, the encounter unique, the boss not terribly difficult. it just took a wee bit of time based on mechanics.

sadly we live in a post destiny world were all mechanics are hidden as well as being pass fail as well as requiring perfect execution by everyone in the group. its stressful, too hard, and not fun.

plus the more specific you make mechanics and group requirements the less fun can actually be had, if you all need to perfectly execute specific tasks in a specific order at specific times with zero down time then your not ACTUALLY playing a game, your just doing a chore.

your a mouse in a maze someone designed waiting for the *click* and treat of success or the "buzzer" and electric zap of failure.

BomblePants

Thanks guys, didn’t realise purge was nerfed too.... I’m used to them changing up stuff but this update is making me nervous....

Mayrael

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Hmmm... Warden? Heal it? You literally have tree dedicated to it and skill with no cost that removes 1 negative effect (just Magicka). DKs, well Magicka ones shouldn't complain they have a lot of heals options to. MagSorcs? Combine shield with new rapid regen, maybe it's time to stop shieldstack? Stam sorc. Critical surge, vigor, dark deal, rally, quite few options Stam DKs? I'll guess you die :P

Didn't know Vigor and Rally where StamSorc exclusive and couldn't be used by a class with more healing buffs ;-)
And I truely doubt we will see much shieldstacking after ZOS inapproriately touched them on all parameters. You know, cost increase, resource scaling, magicka return. Not to start with bar space issues. that arise from having to slot Crit over Power Surge + a source of major sorcery + rapid regen etc.

But I'm curious how that all will play out. Maybe it's just hot fuzz, maybe it's not. Time will tell.

Well yeah, there are lingering pots to and many more but I've just mentioned some skills that can be used vs dots, stamDK is better when it goes to efficiency but has less options... You know what I mean Dots probably are going to get nerfed, and I don't care if it happens or not, I'll handle myself somehow. I just like to act as a devil's advocate, just like many people did when bleeds were out of control. So many people defended them as a legit and balanced, why not do this now with these dots?

Uryel

MajBludd wrote: »

@Uryel go outside and take a break. If you get that upset over a game you need a break. Nerfs were made due to pve and pvp in the past.

20 years playing online, 20 years having to bear with little f***s who complain all the time when THEIR favourite skill / class / build is nerfed while calling for everything else to be nerfed so they can win easily, damn right I need a break. A break from stupid, self-centered people. Unfortunately they are everywhere. Also, sorry if you felt personnaly attacked, my "you" was more "the general PvP crowd who keeps whining all the time and calls for nerfs" than "you specifically".

MajBludd wrote: »

Power creep is an issue in pve. An npc can't complain about it but people can surely brag how they smashed the newest trial with 4 dps. That tells the dev's their content is too easy due to power creep.

Devs also tell us they fixed the servers, that racial balance was made to open more opportunities, and I didn't belive one word of that either.

I'll give you that, though, power creep CAN be an issue. But only because of some poor design choices. If it is possible in the first place to reach such incredibly high DPS, then it's a poor design choice. Compare with resists. You CAN get 50k resists easily. I know I used to have well over 40k with my nord sorc tank, and that's without the werewolf transformation, so I was well over 50k resists in beast form. Which is pointless as the cap is around 33K. So why isn't there something equivalent for damage ? THAT would solve the power creep instantly, some form of soft-cap on the maximum damage output. People would then focus on HOW they reach that cap, and I mean that as what manner they play, which playstyle they chose... Rather than trying to go as high as athey can. That wouldn't only solve the issue, that also would be alot more fun.

And while I'm on the poor design choices and resists, if there is a cap on resists, why isn't that apparent in the game itself ? Take Fallen Earth, for all its flaws, it has several resist stats with an actual percentage displayed that amounts to the damage reduction you get out of it. You can instantly spot when increasing that stat give so much diminishing return that a zillion more resist points wouldn't give you a whole percent of damage mitigation. Why isn't there anything like that in ESO ? You have big numbers and have no idea, no mean to know what they exactly do.

As for smashing a new trial with only high damage characters, it's not so much a power creep issue, again, it's a design issue. IF a mechanic can be bypassed by simply applying stupidly high brute force, it was poorly concieved. However, IF a mechanic is so locked that you can't have any freedom in approaching it, it's poorly concieved too, so there is a difficult balance to be found there.

MajBludd wrote: »

Why not try and think of a solution to ops problem instead of throwing a tantrum?

Been there, done that. I've been suggesting changes that were never echoed (as many people have done, they can't listen to everyone), I've suggested adjustments, different mechanics, even a full rebuild from scratch of the whole "damage is tied to your main ressource pool and that's a bad idea" thing. Devs have every right to ignore that, of course. But telling me I haven't done my research is not right. I do understand that you had no way to know I had done my research, though, so no problem with that. So many people, so little time to read them all

MajBludd wrote: »

Edit "you just want to win', you say? No I want a fun fight win or lose and I've never called for anything to be nerfed. Have you?

Maybe you do, and then, my hat to you, good sir. But most PvP whiners express themselves in ways that show their need for +win buffs way to obviously. I have never, ever, in 20 years of MMO, called for anything to be nerfed. Except maybe whining, if that could be nerfed I'd be mighty glad.

I have, however, advocated for reversing some lore-breaking changes, and will continue to do so. Bosmers should still be stealthy, Argonians should still resist poison, for instance. Does "nerf that nerf" count as calling for nerfing ?


Now, as for OP's "issue"... It's not an issue. As I've mentionned in some other thread, there are tools to counter DoTs available for everyone. The problem is that "I want my DPS as high as possible and kill everything instantly" crowd can't be arsed using them because it cramps their self-percieved awsomeness. My take on any fight ? If you live longer than your enemy, you win. So all my characters always have had some form of self-survival tool. For instance, the last update brought a pretty nice healing shot in the bow line. It's not high damage, but it's spammable, heals decently, and any healer (or solo player for that matter) worth their salt will tell you that you can survive a DoT with properly timed burst healing.

If people were actually thinking their builds instead of copying them from the web, they might be able to adapt, but until some build guru bestows them with a new holy grail, we're going to see people complain they can't survive. And then, we'll see them use builds that those who don't give a flying *** about pre-made builds had roughly figured from day 1, just in a more refined form. I can't fathom why evolution gave us brains if people chose not to use them. Again, sorry for my general tone, but have little patience for people who willingly refuse to think, and we are f'ing surrounded.


[Edited to remove Sheogorath's influence on my spelling and self-censoring of curses since for some reason the forum didn't mask them itself]

Vercingetorix

Wing wrote: »

some (templar, necromancer) having amazing purges and suffer not.
some (nightblade) simply suppress, and laugh in the dark.

and others (sorc, dk, warden) simply die at its hands.

AKA, brutal damage that destroys some classes while leaving others completely unaffected is not cool.

Warden has a purge that has zero resource cost, grants resources, and provides a damage buff. They are not suffering.
That said...

Sorcerer, Dragonknight, and Warden have been at the top for quite some time so it's only fair they get nerfed for a year. Come back in 2020 and ZoS will nerf DoTs and rebuff direct damage skills instead, lol. Just adapt and stop crying - you'll be fine. Frankly, I'm happy to see purge effects gaining more importance in this patch.

OtarTheMad

Guys have to learn to adjust builds. Can't be about damage 100% of the time, you have to defend, heal etc. On my stamina players I am just going to try using combo of shuffle, a defensive set and the alliance war purge... should be fine.

Wing

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

some (templar, necromancer) having amazing purges and suffer not.
some (nightblade) simply suppress, and laugh in the dark.

and others (sorc, dk, warden) simply die at its hands.

AKA, brutal damage that destroys some classes while leaving others completely unaffected is not cool.

Warden has a purge that has zero resource cost, grants resources, and provides a damage buff. They are not suffering.
That said...

Sorcerer, Dragonknight, and Warden have been at the top for quite some time so it's only fair they get nerfed for a year. Come back in 2020 and ZoS will nerf DoTs and rebuff direct damage skills instead, lol. Just adapt and stop crying - you'll be fine. Frankly, I'm happy to see purge effects gaining more importance in this patch.

when you start your argument or counterpoint with something that is BS, it throws off the rest of your point.

warden "cleanse" is 1! effect. . .do you have any idea how many debuffs get placed on you in pvp in combat, even if its just one person? even classes that purge 4 at time have trouble. not only that but your going to sit and what? spam netch while you get your ** kicked in? good luck.

also "these were good so its okay if they are bad for a year" is the most terrible armchair design balance notion I have ever heard, I am glad you don't work in any kind of game development.

del9

Nerf dots they are unhealthy

Vlad9425

Overpowered DOTs, cast time ultimates, nerfed heals, nerfed abilities... This patch actually sounds like some kind of troll. Maybe they want people to quit the game so that way performance improves itself...

Rake

yes