Healing Ritual should get a cost reduction, NBs, Sorcs and DKs need an efficient group heal

BlissfulDeluge

So with the upcoming patch notes, it seems that Grand Healing is going to become an AoE HoT, rather than a bursty AoE heal. It is understandable that its stacking in previous iterations was overpowered, and that it needed to be changed, but with the upcoming changes, there are sparsely any abilities that fill the role of healing a larger group efficiently, with three exceptions;

• Healing Ritual for Templars (base cost of 7290 magicka, radius AoE range)

• Life amid Death for Necromancers (base cost of 3510 magicka, ground-targeted)

• Budding Seed for Wardens (base cost of 2431 Magicka, must be activated twice for burst heal, ground-targeted)

As you might have noticed, Nightblades, Sorcerers and Dragonknights all lack an efficient group burst heal to fill Grand Healing's role, and of the three classes with such an ability available, only two can be considered effective. Healing Ritual requires both that you stand in melee range to heal a wide group, and has a high cost comparatively, which makes it hard to sustain in comparison to other abilities. The morph Ritual of Rebirth does allow you to heal a target outside of its range, but even that pales in comparison to its competitors. Budding Seed's lower cost compared to Life amid Death is justified in my opinion, with its need to be activated twice.

Given the lack of an efficient group healing ability, I would recommend that a), all Classes get an efficient group healing ability, or b), Grand Healing is reverted to its old form, or c), Grand Healing is changed to become a ground-targeted AoE burst heal, comparable to Budding Seed or Life amid Death. One of these have to happen for healing to not be utterly ruined in the game, in instances where groups take a lot of damage over a short amount of time. I am not against the healing meta changing, or healing becoming more difficult in some aspects, but I am FIRMLY against healing becoming an impossibility for not just the top-tier players, but everyone that enjoys PvE content in its current form.

Thank you for your time.

Fiewiel

I agree. Im not versus changes and I would like to know how class X should heal 10-20 targets versus burst damage (80% lifeloss in 1-2 sec) over Y amount of time.

Seraphayel

The base for every class is an AoE HoT now after they changed Grand Healing:

- AoE HoT (Refreshing Path, Cinder Storm, Budding Seeds, Ritual, Restoring Tether/Life Amid Death)

On top of that every class offers different ways on how to further heal single targets or groups:

- ST burst heal (Malevolent Offering, Cauterize/Obsidian Shard, Render Flesh, Rushed Ceremony
- ST HoT (Nature's Grasp, Funnel Health, Spirit Mender
- AoE burst heal (Life Amid Death, Healing Ritual, Sap Essence, Twilight Matriarch, Fungal Growth)

And then every class has different tools that make them special and are hard to categorize:

- Living Vines / Lotus Flower, Purifying Light, Fragmented Shield

(this list isn't complete btw)

The only class that lacks several healing skills is Sorcerer, which ZOS seems to be looking at the moment. A change to Surge isn't enough though as they lack the AoE HoT every class now has and is there to complement the AoE HoT of Grand Healing.

I don't think every class should have another AoE burst heal in the style of "Live" Grand Healing as it would be exactly the same as with Grand Healing then in U23. It's better to give every class an own identity and the options to deal with these situations outside of spamming AoE burst heals.

The groundwork for U23 is: Grand Healing AoE HoT + Class AoE HoT + x (other class/non-class healing skills).

Don't get me wrong, there need to be adjustments for many skills (making AoE HoTs bigger for NB, DK for example; I made a thread for this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/486296/suggestion-healing-adjustments-for-non-healer-classes-in-u23#latest) yet I think the base they developed for U23 healing is good with the 2x AoE HoT + X concept.

Fiewiel

First time I hear that hots (if you do not stack several) work versus burst damage. Currently 1 healing spring wont be enough to compensate burst, so I hope they increase the tickrate of the endproduct, if thats the grand plan.
Dont think that single target is the problem here, its all about aoe.
If I look at my templar I only see healing ritual versus aoe burst, but even with my good mana reg thats not sustainable for a longer time. As you already wrote, the range of 10m around caster isnt much either. In practice it would mean to enter melee range of mobs and this on a squishy, reactive class.
We will see.

Iskiab

As a NB I don’t think we need an aoe burst heal really. A working funnel health would be nice, and a group hot would be awesome.

Stibbons

+Templars too.

GusTheWizard

We all have Combat Prayer.

SkysOutThizeOut

Dks do not need aoe heal. They have a few options. The stone, the cinder, cauterize, and the only on demand major mending. Stop. Trying. To. Make. Classes. More. Op. Than. They. Are. It’s okay for classes not to have everything. It’s this thought process the poster has that’s going to kill diversity.

BlissfulDeluge

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

Dks do not need aoe heal. They have a few options. The stone, the cinder, cauterize, and the only on demand major mending. Stop. Trying. To. Make. Classes. More. Op. Than. They. Are. It’s okay for classes not to have everything. It’s this thought process the poster has that’s going to kill diversity.

I mean, it's ZOS' thought process in general. The game has slowly been moving towards homogenizing all the classes.

Furthermore, I wanna stress there's a stark difference between diversity and utility. Sure, some classes ought to excel at certain roles. DKs make cheesy tanks, Templars make cheesy heals, Stamina Necromancers outparse everything. That said, I think that things ought to be balanced towards the idea that every class ought to be able to fill every role. Templar tanks should be just as viable as DK tanks, but that doesn't mean that they have to be equal.

BlissfulDeluge

Iskiab wrote: »

As a NB I don’t think we need an aoe burst heal really. A working funnel health would be nice, and a group hot would be awesome.

I think for Sap Essence to become a stronger AoE heal would be a good thing. The stam morph could be scaled with max stat and max weapon/spell damage, leaving Sap Essence similar to Healing Ritual

Kadoin

GusTheWizard wrote: »

We all have Combat Prayer.

Shh...if you mention that, how will the ball groups in Cyro spam healing ritual in place of springs next patch!?

Iskiab

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

As a NB I don’t think we need an aoe burst heal really. A working funnel health would be nice, and a group hot would be awesome.

I think for Sap Essence to become a stronger AoE heal would be a good thing. The stam morph could be scaled with max stat and max weapon/spell damage, leaving Sap Essence similar to Healing Ritual

Yea, in pve against multiple targets as is it will help.

In pvp or in pve against bosses the way the ability’s designed it’ll never be that good.

SeaUnicorn

Oh noo it's very dangerous, cuz they can increase the cost of the other 2... But I agree the the cost of it is crazy high.

Aznarb

I disagree.
Budding need to be set and use it again to heal.
Life amid death have a very small burst

Templar cost is the only downside and I still can spam it if I need w/o problem.
Templar is instant no-targeted aoe burst.
It's the fastest and most reliable burst heal in the PTS RN.

The Budding Seed should got a mana increase though, way to cheap, it should cost more than necro but less than templar.

Just my though.

BlissfulDeluge

Aznarb wrote: »

I disagree.
Budding need to be set and use it again to heal.
Life amid death have a very small burst

Templar cost is the only downside and I still can spam it if I need w/o problem.
Templar is instant no-targeted aoe burst.
It's the fastest and most reliable burst heal in the PTS RN.

The Budding Seed should got a mana increase though, way to cheap, it should cost more than necro but less than templar.

Just my though.

I think you misunderstand, my friend. We're actually agreeing on Budding Seed and Life amid Death not needing a change. As for Budding Seed's cheaper than Life amid Death's cost, like you say, it takes two GCD (global cooldowns) to activate the burst heal.

My issue is, Healing Ritual's cost is way too high for its range. Yes. the heal is powerful, and I don't necessarily disagree that the healing of it should be lowered, but what I am concerned about is certain classes not being able to heal groups in content that which doesn't allow stacking.

Aznarb

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

I disagree.
Budding need to be set and use it again to heal.
Life amid death have a very small burst

Templar cost is the only downside and I still can spam it if I need w/o problem.
Templar is instant no-targeted aoe burst.
It's the fastest and most reliable burst heal in the PTS RN.

The Budding Seed should got a mana increase though, way to cheap, it should cost more than necro but less than templar.

Just my though.

I think you misunderstand, my friend. We're actually agreeing on Budding Seed and Life amid Death not needing a change. As for Budding Seed's cheaper than Life amid Death's cost, like you say, it takes two GCD (global cooldowns) to activate the burst heal.

My issue is, Healing Ritual's cost is way too high for its range. Yes. the heal is powerful, and I don't necessarily disagree that the healing of it should be lowered, but what I am concerned about is certain classes not being able to heal groups in content that which doesn't allow stacking.

Got your point now, np mate !
Agree to unpopular healer, they need love.

danara

Can i have a cinder storm size that match the Grand Healing size ? And a synnergie that give my mates a shield on it, because i want it to be similar to ritual /seed.

@Seraphayel i laughed when i read that you thought obsidian and cauterize are single target burst heal 😂

Obsidian : give a shield to 6 ally (not sure about 6) scalling on your max health
1k8 shield (average)?! Omg what a burst heal !

Cauterize : you launch a heal every 5 seconds if i remember well ? And you cannot control who the heal will target... I mean... Not sure you want to wait 5 seconds to heal your tank when He f**ked up... But it is still a Nice tool to have, in my opinion it has to be rework to proc more often

gamerbunny9910_ESO

danara wrote: »

Can i have a cinder storm size that match the Grand Healing size ? And a synnergie that give my mates a shield on it, because i want it to be similar to ritual /seed.

@Seraphayel i laughed when i read that you thought obsidian and cauterize are single target burst heal 😂

Obsidian : give a shield to 6 ally (not sure about 6) scalling on your max health
1k8 shield (average)?! Omg what a burst heal !

Cauterize : you launch a heal every 5 seconds if i remember well ? And you cannot control who the heal will target... I mean... Not sure you want to wait 5 seconds to heal your tank when He f**ked up... But it is still a Nice tool to have, in my opinion it has to be rework to proc more often

I think he meant Obsidian Shard (the healing fist). Both Obsidian shard and cauterize are smart heals, they heal the lowest health target in the group, and cauterize activates when you hit the button so if you need an immediate heal you can just hit it again.

I just want fragmented shield to scale off of magicka, and give them something else for group healing - whether that's a synergy on ash cloud or a whole other ability altogether (I suggested a morph of inhale in another thread).

Nightblades need the HoT from refreshing path to persist for 4 seconds after leaving the path, and for Funnel Health to be worth a damn.

Vajrak

And still ask for a Templar revert to Healing ritual, the old cost, with the 3second later micro-burst, for the 1s channel.

Seraphayel

danara wrote: »

Can i have a cinder storm size that match the Grand Healing size ? And a synnergie that give my mates a shield on it, because i want it to be similar to ritual /seed.

@Seraphayel i laughed when i read that you thought obsidian and cauterize are single target burst heal 😂

Obsidian : give a shield to 6 ally (not sure about 6) scalling on your max health
1k8 shield (average)?! Omg what a burst heal !

Cauterize : you launch a heal every 5 seconds if i remember well ? And you cannot control who the heal will target... I mean... Not sure you want to wait 5 seconds to heal your tank when He f**ked up... But it is still a Nice tool to have, in my opinion it has to be rework to proc more often

You can both spam Obsidian Shard and Cauterize for almost instant burst healing. Is it efficient? No. Yet you have the option to do so.

danara

gamerbunny9910_ESO wrote: »

danara wrote: »

Can i have a cinder storm size that match the Grand Healing size ? And a synnergie that give my mates a shield on it, because i want it to be similar to ritual /seed.

@Seraphayel i laughed when i read that you thought obsidian and cauterize are single target burst heal 😂

Obsidian : give a shield to 6 ally (not sure about 6) scalling on your max health
1k8 shield (average)?! Omg what a burst heal !

Cauterize : you launch a heal every 5 seconds if i remember well ? And you cannot control who the heal will target... I mean... Not sure you want to wait 5 seconds to heal your tank when He f**ked up... But it is still a Nice tool to have, in my opinion it has to be rework to proc more often

I think he meant Obsidian Shard (the healing fist). Both Obsidian shard and cauterize are smart heals, they heal the lowest health target in the group, and cauterize activates when you hit the button so if you need an immediate heal you can just hit it again.

I just want fragmented shield to scale off of magicka, and give them something else for group healing - whether that's a synergy on ash cloud or a whole other ability altogether (I suggested a morph of inhale in another thread).

Nightblades need the HoT from refreshing path to persist for 4 seconds after leaving the path, and for Funnel Health to be worth a damn.

Still, you cant really rely on it, and for a burst heal it is preaty weak compare to breath of life/budding seeds

Healing ward (especialy the new one on pts) combine with BRP resto staff is way way better

And yeah i also want shield scaled on magicka, but maybe caped to 30% of the target life ? Otherwise it is too op, especialy with major mending

Feric51

Is anyone else scared for how Power Surge is going to get jacked up to make some form of AoE heal for sorcs?

I use Power Surge religiously for self-survival in vMA and soloing WB's etc on my mag sorc, and also for a source of major sorcery. I have a feeling the changes will entail losing some current effect for the sake of adding the AoE heal. The most likely candidate being a reduction in duration which currently sits somewhere around 30+ seconds iirc, but I could see a removal of the major sorcery as well.

My suggestion, if they decide to do this, is to give the critical surge morph major sorcery on top of the major brutality and heal increase. I mean, they generally upped single-target HoT spells this patch, so keeping the increased heal, especially since it's dependent on landing a critical strike, would seem plausible. Also, the cost of critical surge is higher than power surge.

gamerbunny9910_ESO

danara wrote: »

Still, you cant really rely on it, and for a burst heal it is preaty weak compare to breath of life/budding seeds

Healing ward (especialy the new one on pts) combine with BRP resto staff is way way better

And yeah i also want shield scaled on magicka, but maybe caped to 30% of the target life ? Otherwise it is too op, especialy with major mending

Oh sure, not saying it's an efficient way to heal, was just clarifying. If they keep the current scaling and just switch it to magicka instead of health I don't think it'd be too bad. Right now tanks can get around 4 or 5k i believe, which would be a decent amount.

LiquidPony

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

As a NB I don’t think we need an aoe burst heal really. A working funnel health would be nice, and a group hot would be awesome.

I think for Sap Essence to become a stronger AoE heal would be a good thing. The stam morph could be scaled with max stat and max weapon/spell damage, leaving Sap Essence similar to Healing Ritual

As it stands I don't see any reason to use Sap Essence on a NB healer. It is more expensive and weaker than Combat Prayer, even if you hit many targets with Sap Essence to boost its healing output.

I have a NB healer set up on PTS.

Combat Prayer hits for ~10.3k for a cost of 2722 magicka. Sap Essence hits for 5.2k for a cost of 2949 magicka even when hitting 8 enemy targets. That's with 75 points in Blessed, a Powered Perfected Asylum resto frontbar (in Olo/Jorvuld/Symphony), and Major Sorcery/Major Mending up.

Honestly in the magblade healing kit I suspect Healthy Offering and Refreshing Path will be the only skills used. I don't see Sap Essence or Funnel Health being very useful. Rapid Regen is far stronger than Funnel and Combat Prayer is far stronger than Sap Essence.

Iskiab

gamerbunny9910_ESO wrote: »

danara wrote: »

Can i have a cinder storm size that match the Grand Healing size ? And a synnergie that give my mates a shield on it, because i want it to be similar to ritual /seed.

@Seraphayel i laughed when i read that you thought obsidian and cauterize are single target burst heal 😂

Obsidian : give a shield to 6 ally (not sure about 6) scalling on your max health
1k8 shield (average)?! Omg what a burst heal !

Cauterize : you launch a heal every 5 seconds if i remember well ? And you cannot control who the heal will target... I mean... Not sure you want to wait 5 seconds to heal your tank when He f**ked up... But it is still a Nice tool to have, in my opinion it has to be rework to proc more often

Nightblades need the HoT from refreshing path to persist for 4 seconds after leaving the path, and for Funnel Health to be worth a damn.

Agreed on funnel, but refreshing path already persists for 4 seconds after leaving the path.

LiquidPony wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

As a NB I don’t think we need an aoe burst heal really. A working funnel health would be nice, and a group hot would be awesome.

I think for Sap Essence to become a stronger AoE heal would be a good thing. The stam morph could be scaled with max stat and max weapon/spell damage, leaving Sap Essence similar to Healing Ritual

As it stands I don't see any reason to use Sap Essence on a NB healer. It is more expensive and weaker than Combat Prayer, even if you hit many targets with Sap Essence to boost its healing output.

I have a NB healer set up on PTS.

Combat Prayer hits for ~10.3k for a cost of 2722 magicka. Sap Essence hits for 5.2k for a cost of 2949 magicka even when hitting 8 enemy targets. That's with 75 points in Blessed, a Powered Perfected Asylum resto frontbar (in Olo/Jorvuld/Symphony), and Major Sorcery/Major Mending up.

Honestly in the magblade healing kit I suspect Healthy Offering and Refreshing Path will be the only skills used. I don't see Sap Essence or Funnel Health being very useful. Rapid Regen is far stronger than Funnel and Combat Prayer is far stronger than Sap Essence.

It’s actually a bit worse then that. In pve trials refreshing Path is worth it, in pvp it’s being overshadowed by other abilities.

Healthy Offering’s being overshadowed as well.

I was trying to make a pvp healer build and drop these two abilities.... then I realized why play a NB?

All NB healers really have going for them now is:
- easy access to major evasion
- Soul Siphon
- Cloak
- Merciless stack mitigation

That’s not enough reason to play a class. I’m considering a switch.

gamerbunny9910_ESO

Iskiab wrote: »

Agreed on funnel, but refreshing path already persists for 4 seconds after leaving the path.

The major expedition persists, but not the healing.

Edit: This kinda punishes nightblade healers for using their group movement skill as, well, a movement skill. It's pretty counterintuitive.

Seraphayel

gamerbunny9910_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Agreed on funnel, but refreshing path already persists for 4 seconds after leaving the path.

The major expedition persists, but not the healing.

Edit: This kinda punishes nightblade healers for using their group movement skill as, well, a movement skill. It's pretty counterintuitive.

Did they change that recently? I’m pretty sure the HoT sticks on you too for several seconds after leaving Path.

gamerbunny9910_ESO

Seraphayel wrote: »

gamerbunny9910_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Agreed on funnel, but refreshing path already persists for 4 seconds after leaving the path.

The major expedition persists, but not the healing.

Edit: This kinda punishes nightblade healers for using their group movement skill as, well, a movement skill. It's pretty counterintuitive.

Did they change that recently? I’m pretty sure the HoT sticks on you too for several seconds after leaving Path.

It hasn't as long as I remember. Just logged in and tested it to be sure, the heal drops off as soon as I walk out of the area, even though I still have the expedition buff. Although, when I'm having bits of lag it does hang on for a couple of seconds for some reason, perhaps it is still registering me in the AoE? I don't believe it's part of the ability, as the duration is very inconsistent. I think the confusion is just because it seems like the common sense way the ability should work, right? Lol

Edit: Tested for a bit longer. Seems like the heal lingers for 2 seconds, not the full 4, but thanks to the laggy nature of ESO cities, it ends up being anywhere from 0 to 7 seconds of lingering heal lol. The heal should at least match the duration of the expedition buff. Currently I get an average of 2 ticks after leaving.

ecru

edit: oops

Iskiab

Seraphayel wrote: »

gamerbunny9910_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Agreed on funnel, but refreshing path already persists for 4 seconds after leaving the path.

The major expedition persists, but not the healing.

Edit: This kinda punishes nightblade healers for using their group movement skill as, well, a movement skill. It's pretty counterintuitive.

Did they change that recently? I’m pretty sure the HoT sticks on you too for several seconds after leaving Path.

It was a stealth change. You get a 4 second buff (never actually shows at 4 seconds but 3.x seconds) that refreshes every second if you stay on the path. So if you stay on the path for a full second it restarts the timer for another 3.x seconds.

There was no patch note I saw, but someone corrected me when I posted how it used to work.

Either way it’s a nice change. On live 4 ticks of refreshing is exactly the same amount of healing as combat Prayer, and 4 seconds of expedition makes it equivalent to other expedition buffs.

On live it’s definitely worth using, on PTS I’m not so sure anymore. Other abilities have been buffed relatively more creating bar crunch. I’m thinking of dropping it in 4 person content if I use dark cloak, I might keep using it if I use Shadowy Disguise.

The value was increased 29% or something on PTS, but that still means it’ll be just under 1k ticks in no-CP pvp.

I’m sort of at a loss for how to spec after the patch. Ward ally cannot crit and is more stat dependent for the tooltip from my understanding. I’ve been tanking sp and going high recovery, crit and healing % modifiers. I’m going to have to change stuff around.

Saril_Durzam

Inmho no DD should or have any kind of group heal. That should be reserved to healers.

What sorcs need now, though, is a reliable, strong selfheal after Matriarch nerf. Basically class depends on shields and surge which takes 2 slots and LOTS of resources that Sorc sustain cant afford.