[Warning] RIP Bleeds? Why? DId we asked to remove bleeds at all? Not to adjust to not be OP?

JusticeSouldier

I'm wondered to have no here any discussion to defend the bleeds...They are too strong on LIve, for a very long time.
They strongly deserve to be nerfed...
But.
Now they going to "respect Physical resists"...

Lets talk about Tank Meta here, which was few years ago...do u remember that cases, guys?
Permablockers, extremly big % of all players running in heavy, with less than require damage but slowly died.
Or sometimes with a very high damage to do it when attacker spend tonn of resourses to do a damage because it was very highly mitigated.
Zergs with almost every player tank inside. Or Manatemplars with 60k health and spammed on being exloded Blazing shield...

If there are no Bleeds - new tank Meta coming...
33k+ resists (with health recovery, Major and Minor Protection, Major Evasion added with brainless someone to Momentum...hallo Hell).
And we should remember about no Major Defile on new Reverberation bash here...It's a very huge change.

I can except Bleeds to be scaled with target's resists proportionally to it's resist's Mitigation.
Like when person with 10k phys resists will get small % of damage coming increase from Bleeds, because of ignored resists only for same small mitigation it have in this case.
But tank with 33k resists - to have same Ignored resists as now...Bleeds have right to exist in game. They have a Function.

Because it's counter. It's a strong requirement to have general balance. I can predict that u will not get enouch feedback during PTS on this.
But later...
@ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_Gilliam Don't u think so? Guys, its obvious, please don't do this mistake. It will cost u many month of critics = company's and game's reputation lost. Don't act like Wrobel. Please.

Nemesis7884

becaues if they reduced the damage even further down it would become a joke for pve

JusticeSouldier

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

becaues if they reduced the damage even further down it would become a joke for pve

than they can or should separate it's mechanics for pve and pvp.

FenrisWolf1136

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

becaues if they reduced the damage even further down it would become a joke for pve

than they can or should separate it's mechanics for pve and pvp.

They should have done that from the start but i dont see that changing anytime soon. Would be a ton of work they don't want to take the time to do.

JusticeSouldier

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

becaues if they reduced the damage even further down it would become a joke for pve

than they can or should separate it's mechanics for pve and pvp.

They should have done that from the start but i dont see that changing anytime soon. Would be a ton of work they don't want to take the time to do.

agree but it means we should talk and ask about this until they will understand. can't see another way

JusticeSouldier

@Thogard what do u think about Bleeds without ignoring resists in any form?

Finedaible

Seems like Oblivion damage is the counter-tank meta in ZoS's eyes now. I'm still not sure if this is a good thing, since bleeds are basically just a physical dot with a different description now, but I think we need more time to tell. Maybe Sload's Semblance and Knight Slayer are the answer here, since they will - supposedly - be weaker on low hp targets this patch.

Sun7dance

Vote for Bleed status effect....

Vapirko

I agree with you that the way theyre nerfing them is pretty stupid. Theyll be far more damaging to low resist builds than the perma block tank builds that theyre really meant for.

JusticeSouldier

And with removing ignore resists component they made their base tooltips stronger.
Which will be sagnificant while active Corrosive Armor or Onslaught.
Which will force us also to rely on these ultimates only.
I feel garbage here.

MashmalloMan

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

And with removing ignore resists component they made their base tooltips stronger.
Which will be sagnificant while active Corrosive Armor or Onslaught.
Which will force us also to rely on these ultimates only.
I feel garbage here.

Let's put things in to perspective for a moment.

Twin Slashes +34% dot damage.
Carve -9% dot damage (still does about -40% less dot damage than Twin slashes)
Twin Blade and Blunt +24% dot damage (recently nerfed by 12% on live)

I'm sorry, but that is a weak argument at best, you're focusing on 1 ability instead of the bigger picture, when bleeds as a whole are not much stronger for the loss. This is not a "Significant" buff by any stretch to specifically your build.

The change to bleeds makes perfect sense for the developers design decision and helps standardize it for balancing concerns in both PVE and PVP. They won't be designing every ability with different functions for PVE or PVP, at least at this time.

If I were you, I'd be more concerned for other ability changes like Turn Evil, Poison Injection, Soul Trap, Entropy, Onslaught, Elude, Forward Momentum granting major evasion to HA builds easily.

My biggest concern is balancing Onslaught because 16s of free penetration is WAY too much.

There is bigger fish to fry like balancing the tanking aspect of the game vs relying on bleeds to counter those builds. It never made any sense to begin with from a design perspective. Why should bleeds be only available to Stam (HA tanks included, no need for pen) and not Mag builds.

They've clearly designed Oblivion damage to fulfill that role and it's not attached to ANY ability, only sets and enchants making it extremely easy to balance for everyone to use if they wanted to focus on taking down tanks. It remains to be seen whether or not they've achieved that goal with Oblivion dmg.

Their major concern was standardizing how they balance different abilities following a specific rule-set for the future of the game and they accomplished that (for the most part). Now it's time to balance tanking if it's overperforming with the loss of bleeds ignoring resistances.

labambao

Imo
Oblivion damage scales with Hp pool
Make bleed damage scale with target resistances.
Kinda if target have less then 20k resists bleed should deal 25% less
If resists less than 12k then 50% less dmg.
If resists higher than 30k - deal 50% more damage.
More than 35k? +100% damage just for lulz of that tanky boi

Thogard

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

@Thogard what do u think about Bleeds without ignoring resists in any form?

No opinion yet - it’s all still too new. Let’s see how it plays out and call it out once we have more data imo.

validifyedneb18_ESO

if you have full penetration bleeds now do more damage.

yes, it was nice to have them penetrate automatically, but the cost of that was seeing their damage be nerfed into the ground. If you wanted to USE other abilities you needed the penetration anyway, so the bleeds where being nerfed for pretty much nothing.

This is a good change. Of that im sure.

MashmalloMan

labambao wrote: »

Imo
Oblivion damage scales with Hp pool
Make bleed damage scale with target resistances.
Kinda if target have less then 20k resists bleed should deal 25% less
If resists less than 12k then 50% less dmg.
If resists higher than 30k - deal 50% more damage.
More than 35k? +100% damage just for lulz of that tanky boi

So how does your idea take anything I said in to account. You're looking at bleeds in a vacuum when in reality they are used by almost all stam builds in PVE and PVP, which is why you can't balance them that way.

labambao wrote: »

Kinda if target have less then 20k resists bleed should deal 25% less, If resists less than 12k then 50% less dmg.

So what your telling me is in PVE, rending slashes should do 50% less damage on a boss because the group reduced their resistance to 6k. Do you not see the issue with that?

Since you completely ignored my other comment I'll simplify this again for you:

1) Bleeds barely received a buff, many other abilities were buffed that will change pvp this patch so that is a non-concern to specify Bleed damage as if 34% on 1 dot really means anything in the big picture.

2) Onslaught is the biggest issue, rewarding builds that stack max stam/wpd without the need for penetration anywhere in the build which is exactly why LIVE bleeds are problematic.

3)Oblivion dmg is not tied to abilities, only sets and enchants making it easier to balance and requiring an INVESTMENT to actually focus and take down tanks. You shouldn't be able to make 1 build good against every other build which is what made bleeds so strong for stam in PVP, but weaker in PVE.

4) ZOS has stood by their stance on abilities behaving the same in PVE and PVP, thus why they standardized bleeds to behave like any regular dot, but doubled down on Oblivion dmg fulfilling a role in PVP, but next to useless in PVE.

katorga

labambao wrote: »

Imo
Oblivion damage scales with Hp pool
Make bleed damage scale with target resistances.
Kinda if target have less then 20k resists bleed should deal 25% less
If resists less than 12k then 50% less dmg.
If resists higher than 30k - deal 50% more damage.
More than 35k? +100% damage just for lulz of that tanky boi

Easier than that, just do 2% of health as damage per tick.Why come up with some complicated scheme to further lag the servers.

katorga

katorga wrote: »

labambao wrote: »

Imo
Oblivion damage scales with Hp pool
Make bleed damage scale with target resistances.
Kinda if target have less then 20k resists bleed should deal 25% less
If resists less than 12k then 50% less dmg.
If resists higher than 30k - deal 50% more damage.
More than 35k? +100% damage just for lulz of that tanky boi

Easier than that, just do 2% of health as damage per tick.Why come up with some complicated scheme to further lag the servers.

Either way bleeds were not op. Now they are going to be bigger, by a slightly larger amount than the average resistance mitigation of players. LA/MA get hit hardest, while heavy gets off easy.

JusticeSouldier

My point is - bleeds as a type pf damage should scale it's own penetration in proportion to the ph. resists of the target.
0-5k resists - only character's base penetration, 10k - base + 2k for example, 20k - base + 5 -10k pen, 33k+ resists - 33k+ penetration for bleed damage independent.
For example. These number are only illustration of how it can be.

While I wrote this, got a thought that not sure if it's good for server performance.
But, it's on devs. To think and test maybe...
Hope it's possible.
Because resistsmania, which we will get without this, with only onslaught and corrosive as a counter will be a terrible experience.

Gilvoth

the title says
"did we ask to remove bleeds at all?"

people asking for nerfs to bleeds is not new, people have been asking for a long time for nerfs to bleeds.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455582/bleeds-overperforming-in-pvp

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415867/nerf-bleed-damge-in-bgs

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/475811/oblivion-damage-scaling-mechanism-dont-forget-bleeds

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462880/bleed-and-dots

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461593/when-will-the-bleed-meta-end

JusticeSouldier

Gilvoth wrote: »

the title says
"did we ask to remove bleeds at all?"

people asking for nerfs to bleeds is not new, people have been asking for a long time for nerfs to bleeds.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455582/bleeds-overperforming-in-pvp

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415867/nerf-bleed-damge-in-bgs

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/475811/oblivion-damage-scaling-mechanism-dont-forget-bleeds

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462880/bleed-and-dots

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461593/when-will-the-bleed-meta-end

Nerf, not remove.

sly007

The problem with bleed is that only stamina has access to it. I disagree with bleed being the counter to tanks. The new oblivion damage change is a change I can stand behind because everyone has access to it.

Davadin

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

if you have full penetration bleeds now do more damage.

i'm so torn in PTS between Spriggan (24/7 3k+ penetration) or 7th (nearly 100% manual proc 350 wep dmg) when I slot Onslaught............. med burst build with Sword Singer.

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

becaues if they reduced the damage even further down it would become a joke for pve

than they can or should separate it's mechanics for pve and pvp.

You must be new here. That's what literally EVERYONE has been crying for over many years. Separate the buffs/nerfs between PvP and PvE. Well, ZoS isn't having ANY of that.

sharquez

Honestly i don't see how the thickness of your armor should affect the severity of your blood leaking out, the poison in your veins, or the disease ravaging your organs.

Xogath

sharquez wrote: »

Honestly i don't see how the thickness of your armor should affect the severity of your blood leaking out, the poison in your veins, or the disease ravaging your organs.

It shouldn't.

Those DoTs in particular should all ignore resistances, and be the go-to counter for someone building too tanky in PvP.. the obvious counter to just stacking DoTs being.. how many slots can you sacrifice? Too many and you lack all utility, or defensive capabilities.. and get near-instantly deleted anyway.

Then again, the balancing circus if that was the case would probably take years (of nerfs) to recover from.

jediodyn_ESO

Even as a WW I’m ok with them nerfing bleeds so long as heavy armor can’t hit as hard (or harder) than medium

labambao

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

becaues if they reduced the damage even further down it would become a joke for pve

than they can or should separate it's mechanics for pve and pvp.

You must be new here. That's what literally EVERYONE has been crying for over many years. Separate the buffs/nerfs between PvP and PvE. Well, ZoS isn't having ANY of that.

Tbh they don't need to separate.
They need to balance classes only for pvp.
After that they should tweak (balance) environment in dungeons and trials for pve.

Gnozo

I dont know what you talking here but in was on PTS and bleeds where still hitting pretty hard.

Got 8k damage from 4 bleed Ticks. Thats a 2k Tick on 28k resist. Doesnt seem weak to me.

JusticeSouldier

labambao wrote: »

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

becaues if they reduced the damage even further down it would become a joke for pve

than they can or should separate it's mechanics for pve and pvp.

You must be new here. That's what literally EVERYONE has been crying for over many years. Separate the buffs/nerfs between PvP and PvE. Well, ZoS isn't having ANY of that.

Tbh they don't need to separate.
They need to balance classes only for pvp.
After that they should tweak (balance) environment in dungeons and trials for pve.

actually on a late thought, i have idea how to not separate but reach the same goal.
resists in pve are constant thing. 18200 Am I right?
Bleeds simply can be designed to work with additional mechanics when target is above this number...
With a progression to punish people for too much investments into tankiness.
@ZOS_Gilliam is this way possible? i feel it can create a good feedback inside combat system.