Maintenance for the week of December 16:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – December 16
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – December 16
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
The issues on the North American megaservers have been resolved at this time. If you continue to experience difficulties at login, please restart your client. Thank you for your patience!
My Thoughts on Nerfmire 2.0, Power Creep, and the Pitfalls of Horizontal Progression
Crafts_Many_Boxes
✭✭✭✭✭
So, when I first heard about the leak, I was pretty upset. There have been a few positive changes, but we as a playerbase have mostly only seen nerfs for a long time. Like, a ridiculously long time.
Then, I got to really thinking about it. The lead combat dev who shall not be named for fear of getting banned's vision on combat isn't necessarily wrong. Coming from other MMOs, it's actually quite a jarring concept that dps is expected to use AoE abilities for ST fights. Other MMOs are balanced specifically so that AoE is a dps loss without 3, or at least 2 targets.
So, in that sense, I was hopeful. Then I remembered something: this game gives us 12 buttons. 12. And that's including ultimates. Those other MMOs are able to separate AoE and ST because you can have as many abilities on those ability bars as you damned well please. Such is not the case in ESO.
So what do I expect to happen? Assuming they've mathed correctly and AoE is now a dps loss for ST over DoTs and other ST abilities, the new meta will involved a lot of ST abilities and DoTs. Will we even have room for AoE anymore on our bars, along with other essential utility skills? I'm doubtful.
Basically, what I predict happening is that dungeons, and PvE content as a whole are about to get a lot slower, and more painful. And not just because our overall dps is getting lower. Because we now have to decide whether or not we want to be optimal in AoE or ST situations. Go with ST, do OK on boss. Go with AoE, do OK on trash. Want to do well on both? Enjoy swapping skills multiple times in the same dungeon / trial. Enjoy that. Do you think most players will do this? I know I'm not physically there, but I'm laughing. Trust me, I'm laughing.
Takeaway #1 is that while this new combat direction for DPS isn't necessarily wrong, it's wrong for this game, the way it is currently designed. Things are about to get much, much worse in all of PvE.
Onward to my second issue: nerfing in general.
Like, is anyone else tired of nerfing? Like, really tired? You can cry "balance" until you're blue in the face, but constantly getting nerfed just FEELS bad. It does. And I know I'm not alone in that. Half the appeal of the MMO is the power fantasy, and these nerfs produce the opposite effect. For almost 2 years now, I feel like I've been in some sort of bizarre muscular dystrophy simulator instead. I'm actively getting weaker. How is that fun? Like seriously, how can that possibly be spun as "fun"?
I'm sure there are some masochistic individuals out there who like nerfs because everything must be perfectly balanced and power creep is some kind of profane term for them, but here's the reality: the game's own system, imposed by the devs, is what forces all of these nerfs, time and time again. The culprit is a little thing called horizontal progression.
In ESO land, our character progression has been capped at CP 810. We cannot physically get stronger without equipping new gear. ZOS has also decided that instead of having tiers of gear, like a developer with common sense would implement right around now, all gear will be more-or-less equal. Obviously trial sets are better than most non-trial sets, but really what's the difference on a non-raid dummy? 30% tops? And that's the only difference. All trial gear is roughly the same level of power, and all overland sets are roughly a certain percentage weaker, with a few exceptions.
New expansions in this game only release new gear sets. The level cap hasn't gone up in years, and now that CP is capped, our only source of even minor character progression is gone. And we're still getting nerfed. I ask again, who's actually enjoying themselves at this point, from a combat / gampeplay perspective?
Takeaway #2 is that the horizontal progression system the devs have chosen is what forces us into these bizarre feedback loops of marginal buffs then heavy-handed nerfs. No other MMO on the market makes even 1/4 of the changes that ESO does during any given expansion, all for the sake of creating change without ever allowing our characters to grow.
I wanted to go on a third tangent about healing and how huge a mistake those changes are too, but I've gone on long enough. Maybe another day. All I can say is that, even moreso than ever, I'm really considering other options. I weathered through WoW and Rift, and now ESO is kinda fading for me too. I'm half tempted to just move on from MMOs altogether, but time will tell I guess.
Then, I got to really thinking about it. The lead combat dev who shall not be named for fear of getting banned's vision on combat isn't necessarily wrong. Coming from other MMOs, it's actually quite a jarring concept that dps is expected to use AoE abilities for ST fights. Other MMOs are balanced specifically so that AoE is a dps loss without 3, or at least 2 targets.
So, in that sense, I was hopeful. Then I remembered something: this game gives us 12 buttons. 12. And that's including ultimates. Those other MMOs are able to separate AoE and ST because you can have as many abilities on those ability bars as you damned well please. Such is not the case in ESO.
So what do I expect to happen? Assuming they've mathed correctly and AoE is now a dps loss for ST over DoTs and other ST abilities, the new meta will involved a lot of ST abilities and DoTs. Will we even have room for AoE anymore on our bars, along with other essential utility skills? I'm doubtful.
Basically, what I predict happening is that dungeons, and PvE content as a whole are about to get a lot slower, and more painful. And not just because our overall dps is getting lower. Because we now have to decide whether or not we want to be optimal in AoE or ST situations. Go with ST, do OK on boss. Go with AoE, do OK on trash. Want to do well on both? Enjoy swapping skills multiple times in the same dungeon / trial. Enjoy that. Do you think most players will do this? I know I'm not physically there, but I'm laughing. Trust me, I'm laughing.
Takeaway #1 is that while this new combat direction for DPS isn't necessarily wrong, it's wrong for this game, the way it is currently designed. Things are about to get much, much worse in all of PvE.
Onward to my second issue: nerfing in general.
Like, is anyone else tired of nerfing? Like, really tired? You can cry "balance" until you're blue in the face, but constantly getting nerfed just FEELS bad. It does. And I know I'm not alone in that. Half the appeal of the MMO is the power fantasy, and these nerfs produce the opposite effect. For almost 2 years now, I feel like I've been in some sort of bizarre muscular dystrophy simulator instead. I'm actively getting weaker. How is that fun? Like seriously, how can that possibly be spun as "fun"?
I'm sure there are some masochistic individuals out there who like nerfs because everything must be perfectly balanced and power creep is some kind of profane term for them, but here's the reality: the game's own system, imposed by the devs, is what forces all of these nerfs, time and time again. The culprit is a little thing called horizontal progression.
In ESO land, our character progression has been capped at CP 810. We cannot physically get stronger without equipping new gear. ZOS has also decided that instead of having tiers of gear, like a developer with common sense would implement right around now, all gear will be more-or-less equal. Obviously trial sets are better than most non-trial sets, but really what's the difference on a non-raid dummy? 30% tops? And that's the only difference. All trial gear is roughly the same level of power, and all overland sets are roughly a certain percentage weaker, with a few exceptions.
New expansions in this game only release new gear sets. The level cap hasn't gone up in years, and now that CP is capped, our only source of even minor character progression is gone. And we're still getting nerfed. I ask again, who's actually enjoying themselves at this point, from a combat / gampeplay perspective?
Takeaway #2 is that the horizontal progression system the devs have chosen is what forces us into these bizarre feedback loops of marginal buffs then heavy-handed nerfs. No other MMO on the market makes even 1/4 of the changes that ESO does during any given expansion, all for the sake of creating change without ever allowing our characters to grow.
I wanted to go on a third tangent about healing and how huge a mistake those changes are too, but I've gone on long enough. Maybe another day. All I can say is that, even moreso than ever, I'm really considering other options. I weathered through WoW and Rift, and now ESO is kinda fading for me too. I'm half tempted to just move on from MMOs altogether, but time will tell I guess.
25
-
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Horizontal progression isn't a thing. It's a bit like digging up.
There is no such thing as vertical progression either in games that claim to have it. You never become stronger as new content is scaled to the new max level.
Any kind of "progression" in games is an illusion.Edited by MLGProPlayer on July 10, 2019 2:56AM6 -
Crafts_Many_Boxes✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
I was going to add a blurb about this, but I thought my post was too long already. At least with vertical progression, you get the illusion of growing stronger. My dps went from ~15K to ~75K (maybe more? don't remember exactly) between expansions in Rift (end of SL to end of NMT), and i remember taking a lot of joy and personal sense of accomplishment out of that, regardless of how exactly it was happening. Do you think I cared that boss health was also increasing proportionately?
It's all about feeling like you're getting stronger, and that feeling is dying for me in ESO. Has been for a long time now.Edited by Crafts_Many_Boxes on July 10, 2019 3:11AM4 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yup everything is about to get slower. So many people simply copy Alcast, FearTurbo, random youtubers etc without applying much thought that they'll build for optimum dummy dps and then be awful in real content that involves more than a single target.
They've also made so many fights that much harder, MoL twins and Rakkhat for exampe both rely heavily on cleave damage which will be almost non-existent with these changes. Sure we'll adapt, some players may be told to run their AoE builds on those fights for example, but the more casual players will struggle even more because they're not able to or prepared to run such flexible builds.
Trash fights are simply time gates between bosses, extending the length of the time gates is just going to make the game more boring for a lot of us. These time gates can be fun in some cases (vAA, vSS, vHoF for me) and less so in others (vSO, vMoL)3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
I was going to add a blurb about this, but I thought my post was too long already. At least with vertical progression, you get the illusion of growing stronger. My dps went from ~15K to ~75K (maybe more? don't remember exactly) between expansions in Rift (end of SL to end of NMT), and i remember taking a lot of joy and personal sense of accomplishment out of that, regardless of how exactly it was happening. Do you think I cared that boss health was also increasing proportionately?
It's all about feeling like you're getting stronger, and that feeling is dying for me in ESO. Has been for a long time now.
MLG is correct. Your suggestion that we can pretend to grow stronger with how some MMORPGs manage their game is false and only due to being made weaker to the newly scaled content while we grind for newer gear and then higher tiered gear.
I have played those games and I found no joy with having to grind out new gear just because some people want to pretend they are growing stronger.9 -
ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Im still unpacking the patch notes and thinking about all the implications. I can tell you this though, Im really burn out on nerfs. Im really burn out on adjusting my build every 3 months. Im sick of playstyles I liked becoming completely unusable ( I dont mean super god tier burst playstyle, just something like non pet magsorc even being able to exist). Im tired of feeling like I cant play around with or alter my builds from meta because trying to make a remotely viable and competent build spreads your resources so thin that if you even replace an absorb mag enchant your staff you arnt going to be able to sustain. As a mag player ( non pet sorc, magblade, magcro and templar healer) I dont feel positive about the game or the newest round of changes. I feel like if i want to play this game at this point I just have to level all stam characters (ya stam ik you got nerfed too, on live though every stam class but ssorc is doing pretty good and every mag class but petsorc and maybe magplar are utter trash). Im sick of feeling like I dont actually play the game and instead just farm gear to try to adjust my builds to a usable state from the last round of nerfs. I swear i havent done anything i actually enjoy in this game in at least a year and have just been farming. Farming gear, mats, events (im so sick of events), gold. The worst part is i dont even have anything to show for it, gear is completely unusable 2 weeks after i get done farming it. Leveled a magcro, that was trash outta the gate. Maybe get some motifs outta an event to learn and do nothing with because im already styled up on fashion scrolls and noone ever asks for specific styled gear anymore or crafted gear at all. But hey, I got a fancy mount right?
Idk, im not having fun anymore, regressing instead of progressing, dont feel positive able the current game or the future of the game.7 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭Have you tested your dps on PTS? Because most specs (outside of those directly and intentionally nerfed) aren't losing very much damage. Similarly timed single target dot for AOE dot really isn't a big change for rotation.
These changes arguably helps the most casual players the most who have little hope of doing vMA anytime soon by giving similar DoTs without the need to suffer through one of the biggest difficulty jumps in the endgame. Yes, completing vMA is satisfying but giving casual players accessible single target alternatives is great.
I'll miss LA - Endless Hail- LA - Rearming Trap - LA - Razor Caltrops - LA - Poison Injection - Barswap? Kinda, it seems nostalgic already. No, no, never mind not really.
(BTW if you're not progressing it probably isn't because of the slight tiny nerfs....)0 -
Crafts_Many_Boxes✭✭✭✭✭Have you tested your dps on PTS? Because most specs (outside of those directly and intentionally nerfed) aren't losing very much damage. Similarly timed single target dot for AOE dot really isn't a big change for rotation.
These changes arguably helps the most casual players the most who have little hope of doing vMA anytime soon by giving similar DoTs without the need to suffer through one of the biggest difficulty jumps in the endgame. Yes, completing vMA is satisfying but giving casual players accessible single target alternatives is great.
I'll miss LA - Endless Hail- LA - Rearming Trap - LA - Razor Caltrops - LA - Poison Injection - Barswap? Kinda, it seems nostalgic already. No, no, never mind not really.
(BTW if you're not progressing it probably isn't because of the slight tiny nerfs....)
It's an interesting take on things, but I think you're being too optimistic. Yes, overall dps hasn't changed much, but it's still an overall loss for most specs (as I understand it -- at this point, no way am I downloading the PTS). As far as AoE vs ST DoTs go, I would have to double check but I think that, on the whole, AoE has a longer duration than DoTs. Which means more management of timers, and a higher amount of skill required. I could be wrong there though.
That aside, one of my core concerns is that there simply isn't going to be enough bar space for most specs to have enough skills for a ST rotation and AoE for trash. I mean, I guess time will tell, but if the current meta is that half your skills also do incidental cleave, one would imagine that if it's a 1:1 swap to other skills for ST, then it begs the question of where you fit in AoE now. I don't see most average joe players swapping skills out in the middle of a trial or dungeon, which is why I'm saying things will get more painful.
The one point you make, that I'm inclined to somewhat agree with, is that this makes more skills viable in terms of doing good/decent dps. Which is perhaps the only brightside to all of this. So, in certain situations where Johnny RPer was using previously off-meta skills like soul trap, he will, without even realizing it, do more dps now. I guess that's a good thing, but I don't see it outweighing all the bad. Time will tell I suppose.0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Not true , as you can see older content becomes significantly easier with new levels it does not scale to you. Though scaling content tries to hide power creep it really gives you very little to strive for. And it is a large part of why this games population is largely churn based. Their are no launch guilds active at all anymore matter ,sadly I dont think any launch community made it too the 18 month mark. This is not the case with older premium games , many guilds survived 6 and 7 years in eq 1,2 and wow0 -
Luckylancer✭✭✭✭✭Old dungeons are so easy, google AI can learn perfect runs with 10 try. That is what we call power creep.
PvE is all about using same rotation over and over again againts midles AIs. I dont get why PvEers cry so much if they gotto do same rotation for ~%15 longer.
Note: sustain nerfs changed how PvE felt, this wont. This will just make things take longer.0