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PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for PvP Healing

ZOS_GinaBruno
ZOS_GinaBruno
Community Manager
This is the official feedback thread for PvP Healing changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.
Gina Bruno
Senior Community Manager
Dev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter | My Twitter
Staff Post
  • likecats
    likecats
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    I like ZOS has tackled the overhealing aspect of PVP healing.

    What I liked:
    - Resolving Vigor no longer group healing
    - Regeneration/Mutagen focusing one target
    - Troll king procing less because of the above two

    I would like ZOS to focus on other group heals that are often given unintentionally. I think templar rituals should also only heal the templar that casted the ritual, unintended heals are not good for PVP gameplay. I would also like heals to not go through walls. This is another major problem in PVP healing.

    Group healing should only happen when someone intentionally wants to give heals to another player, and has specced appropriately to do so.

    This does not mean to remove all AOE heals, rather remove the healing aspects from abilities that are good enough without the AOE heal. Case in point: Vigor,mutagen, etc.

    I agree with @NBrookus that one morph of regeneration should be reserved for self-heals like it is with vigor.
    Edited by likecats on July 8, 2019 9:33PM
  • likecats
    likecats
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    odd111out wrote: »
    The same argument would require you to want all AOE damage that isn’t aimed and specifically targets a player to be removed. Destro Ultimate, hurricane, all forms of splash damage, caltrops: all of it. All “unintentional damage” gone.

    I think you misunderstood my argument, I'll try making an edit to explain further.

    The other morph of vigor still exists, and so does the new fighters guild AOE. So do the refreshing path for nb, templar AOE heal, and the warden AOE heals. These are all AOE heals that are intended to be primarily AOE heals, and I am fine with that.

    Destro ultimate, caltrops, etc, etc are all primarily damage AOE abilities. And they are fine too.

    My issue was with AOE heal abilities that are good enough for solo-use that have an additional AOE heal attached to it with no significant trade-off.

    The templar ritual is still more than good enough if it doesn't heal allies other than yourself.
    Resolving vigor is good enough if it doesn't heal other allies.
    Mutagen/RR is good enough if it doesn't heal an additional ally.

    Most people using the three abilities mentioned are not using it to maximize group healing. Their unintended effects leads to overhealing plaguing PVP right now.

    For damage abilities, I would be fine if more abilities functioned in a conal way where the intended targets would take more damage, the templar crescent sweep already incorporates this functionality.
    Edited by likecats on July 8, 2019 9:32PM
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    Please consider giving one of the morphs of Regeneration a guaranteed heal on the caster. If this skill is intended to be magicka vigor (and pushes magicka toons to all run destro/resto) please give players the option to choose to heal themselves selfishly, like stamina has.

    This is not just a PVP consideration. PVE'ers who are doing Dragons, World Bosses, etc. should have a reliable self-heal regardless of class.

    Make it act like Strife. The caster ALWAYS gets one of the HoTs plus one additional ally.
    Xbox Series X (EU)
    - Daggerfall Covenant -
  • NBrookus
    NBrookus
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    NBrookus wrote: »
    Please consider giving one of the morphs of Regeneration a guaranteed heal on the caster. If this skill is intended to be magicka vigor (and pushes magicka toons to all run destro/resto) please give players the option to choose to heal themselves selfishly, like stamina has.

    This is not just a PVP consideration. PVE'ers who are doing Dragons, World Bosses, etc. should have a reliable self-heal regardless of class.

    Make it act like Strife. The caster ALWAYS gets one of the HoTs plus one additional ally.

    I think they are trying to make healing others more of a pure choice.

    I would argue that a morph that only heals you should definitely only heal you. It's selfish.

    The other morph can go back to healing multiple people if that is a help to balance the healing changes -- particularly in end game PVE -- but you have no guarantee you'll get it. That's the price for being a healer and being a lovely non-selfish person.

    That's assuming I'm reading their intentions correctly and haven't just pulled this out of my hat. :trollface:
    PC NA
    Breton Magicka Sorcerer, Breton Magicka Templar, Dunmer Magicka DK, Bosmer Stamina NB, Nord Stamina Warden, Redguard Stamina Necro
    Dunmer Magicka DK, Argonian Magicka Templar, Altmer Magicka NB, Breton Magicka Sorcerer, Orc Stamina Warden
    Dunmer Magicka DK, Argonian Magicka Templar, Altmer Magicka Sorcerer
  • gameswithaspoon
    gameswithaspoon
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    likecats wrote: »
    odd111out wrote: »
    The same argument would require you to want all AOE damage that isn’t aimed and specifically targets a player to be removed. Destro Ultimate, hurricane, all forms of splash damage, caltrops: all of it. All “unintentional damage” gone.

    I think you misunderstood my argument, I'll try making an edit to explain further.

    The other morph of vigor still exists, and so does the new fighters guild AOE. So do the refreshing path for nb, templar AOE heal, and the warden AOE heals. These are all AOE heals that are intended to be primarily AOE heals, and I am fine with that.

    Destro ultimate, caltrops, etc, etc are all primarily damage AOE abilities. And they are fine too.

    My issue was with AOE heal abilities that are good enough for solo-use that have an additional AOE heal attached to it with no significant trade-off.

    The templar ritual is still more than good enough if it doesn't heal allies other than yourself.
    Resolving vigor is good enough if it doesn't heal other allies.
    Mutagen/RR is good enough if it doesn't heal an additional ally.

    Most people using the three abilities mentioned are not using it to maximize group healing. Their unintended effects leads to overhealing plaguing PVP right now.

    For damage abilities, I would be fine if more abilities functioned in a conal way where the intended targets would take more damage, the templar crescent sweep already incorporates this functionality.

    Healing springs is a ranged AOE heal. Healers don’t use it heal themselves in solo content, they use it to heal tanks and groups they are are not standing with. Healing springs is like Caltrops, Destro, Volley, Liquid Lightening. It’s not comparably replaced by a RADIUS heal that requires you to stack the healer on the tank.

    It would be like replacing Snipe with a bow user using an Arrow to stab someone at a Mellee distance. If the damage output of 2-handed was taking a 50-70 nerf people won’t be jumping on that bandwagon.
    Spoon-no-Soup Former Emperor Argonian Templar AD BWB
    Spoon-ware-Soup Former Emperor Argonian Stamplar AD Bahlokdaan
    Guild Leader Imperium of the Eagle Ravenwatch NA-PC
  • rebrur2
    rebrur2
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    Where is the page for PVE healers? Why nerf all heals completely to the ground strictly for PVP? What about your PVE players? Make these changes only for Cyrodiil if there is such an issue and leave the heals alone in PVE.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    rebrur2 wrote: »
    Where is the page for PVE healers? Why nerf all heals completely to the ground strictly for PVP? What about your PVE players? Make these changes only for Cyrodiil if there is such an issue and leave the heals alone in PVE.

    It's right here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484078/pts-update-23-feedback-thread-for-pve-healing
  • coop500
    coop500
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    Werewolf heals (Hircine’s Rage) does not heal enough and costs too much.

    Balancing this in comparison to non-transformed skills is ridiculous, because when not transformed we have access to multiple other forms of healing, defensive moves, and...oh yeah..an actually useful ultimate.

    This is a BAD change. Nerfing the pack leader pets is what was needed to happen to reduce werewolf survivability. GOOD JOB with that. The other changes, combined with the overall changes to bleed, are ridiculous overkill.

    Either turn werewolf into a legitimate class or give it a shorter duration and acknowledge that it should retain a powerful, but more temporary, “ultimate” balance status when the “new rules” are applied to it.

    If this patch goes through, werewolf is for roleplayers only.

    I would love for it to be it's own class
    Wishing for Lilmothiit race still! Or maybe Lilmothiit companion?
  • karekiz
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    rebrur2 wrote: »
    Where is the page for PVE healers? Why nerf all heals completely to the ground strictly for PVP? What about your PVE players? Make these changes only for Cyrodiil if there is such an issue and leave the heals alone in PVE.

    This isn't new, just new for healers.
  • Thraben
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    This is the official feedback thread for PvP Healing changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

    1. general: I think self- healing is overtuned. People should avoid damage, not heal through it. I like the general direction that favors reactive healing, though.

    2. PvP raids: You probably know that most groups will reduce the amount of real healers, whose main task will be burst heal in phases when barrier/ boneshield is down. Please consider that such a new Meta greatly favors Stamwarden groups (who will neither be CC-able nor negatable): Those wardens that don´t have an Ultimate ready will switch to a healing role.

    Since most people aren´t organized enough to use the counterskill (Inevitable Deto), I suggest the implementation of a Stamina Negate (Disarm), or a huge buff to the HEALING MAGE (in the range of -2000 weapon damage) set, so that Magicka Healers have an additional purpose, and a group spot.

    3. Templar: Reintroduce the old Healing Ritual, with its cast time, and its low costs. A powerful, interruptable heal allows for a great deal of counterplay.

    4.Magblade: The healing Ulti´s duration is too short. Additionally, reintroduce the old Refreshing Path so that it can compete with the Templar Ritual of Retribution.

    5. Sorcerer: Sorcerer healers need more bar space. The pets should work like the Nightblade´s shade. The increased costs for resummoning would balance it.

    6. Wardens: The StamWarden´s healing abilities are a problem. If you won´t rework the damage of SubAssault along the lines of other AoE dots, then let it apply an outgoing healing and damage shield debuff of 50% to the caster (like equilibrium). MagWardens will be fine.

    7. Necro: The spirit Mender`s heal is far too low: Compare it with the Warden´s Nature´s Grasp.

    8.DK: Increase the radius of Ash cloud to 8m. Combined with its slow, it might be a unique asset. Change Fragmented shield´s buff to Major Vitality. Apply the single Dot/ Hot standards to Inferno.
    Edited by Thraben on July 9, 2019 4:08PM
    Hauptmann der Dolche des Königs

    DDK ist die letzte Verteidigungslinie des Dolchsturz- Bündnisses auf der 30-Tage-No-CP- Kampagne(EU) mit dem Anspruch, in kleinen, anfängerfreundlichen Raid-Gruppen möglichst epische Schlachten auszufechten.

    DDK is the Daggerfall Covenant´s last line of defense on the 30 days no-cp campaign (EU). We intend to fight epic battles in small, casual player friendly raid groups.
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    The doublenerf to hardened ward, well actually a triple nerf...its too much imo. First the base morph is 18% smaller, then the morph is 9% smaller and then the cost is increased by 810 magicka. Thats overkill and then some, pls revisit somewhat.

    You cant put shields on equal footing as heals, sure shields are strong, but your hp will still stay at the same amount no matter how much you shield if you already have taken dmg, you need to heal aswell as shield yourself. Nerf shields, its ok...but dont kill it.
    Altmer Sorceror, magicka
    Bosmer Nightblade, stamina.
    Imperial Templar, stamina
    Redguard Warden, stamina

    Aldmeri Dominion!
    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    I would just make it always target the caster plus one additional ally. This wouldn’t be too OP as you still only get it on one ally per cast yet it will always hit you which is a good thing.
    Xbox Series X (EU)
    - Daggerfall Covenant -
  • gamerbunny9910_ESO
    Thraben wrote: »

    8.DK: Increase the radius of Ash cloud to 8m. Combined with its slow, it might be a unique asset. Change Fragmented shield´s buff to Major Vitality. Apply the single Dot/ Hot standards to Inferno.

    Wait why change the fragmented shield buff? The ease that DKs can apply major mending is one of the biggest advantages. Unless you mean for the shield to apply Major Vitality to your allies? I could get behind that, having Mending from HA and MV from shield.

    Shield would be dead for me as a healer if it didn't increase my healing output somewhat. The shield itself just isn't big enough on non-tank builds.
    Imperial Nightblade Healer
    Breton DK Healer
    Argonian Necro Healer
    Dunmer Sorcerer Healer
  • GeorgeBlack
    GeorgeBlack
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    Imo all AoE abilities should have a functional PvE morph and a single target of max 2-3 cap morph, or splash morph is you will, for PvP
    Firstly the current culture of Cyrpdill is ballgroups spamming AoE point blank not targeting anything. The most horrible PvP I have played.
    Secondly, the game cant perform snd there wont be a fix. We know that.

    I like reduced AoE healing for PvP
    Edited by GeorgeBlack on July 11, 2019 9:34PM
  • Khenzy
    Khenzy
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    (Rapid) Regeneration and (Resolving) Vigor healing per second needs to be significantly reduced. It's broken on PTS right now, noone is really dying.

    Seriously, this healing per second everyone has can't go live as it is. I cannot emphasize this enough.
    Edited by Khenzy on July 12, 2019 4:53PM
  • cheifsoap
    cheifsoap
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    I honestly gave up on the math when i hit forward momentum (it wasn't clear how it was calculated) but essentially on the WW, it works out to be something like -

    hircine's rage cost
    Original: 4,590
    New: 5,737.5

    Amount:
    Original: 45% max health
    New: 37.5%

    Effective healing @ hps 37k in a single mana bar of 13k
    Original: 16,650 x3, total effective healing: 49,950
    New: 13,875 x2, total effective healing: 27,750

    vs. what other stam classes have with vigor and forward momentum; which btw are stamina based and thus will get more use out of them. But for the sake of debate lets assume they use the same stamina @ 13k. Resolving Vigor got a single target buff, "Increased the healing per tick by approximately 85% & Reduced the cost to 2295 from 3511." with its morph it goes back to the old 5s duration every 1s. Which accounts to almost 10k per cast? While this is a hot, there are other skills to keep the caster alive such as weapon swapping to blade cloak. The point is, there is more in every other classes tool box to keep them alive vs. the WW where they have 1 burst heal that they can only cast a few times a bar.

    The point im trying to make is when you look at the WW holistically, it's healing toolset pales in comparison to the toolset of other stam classes.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Khenzy wrote: »
    (Rapid) Regeneration and (Resolving) Vigor healing per second needs to be significantly reduced. It's broken on PTS right now, noone is really dying.

    Seriously, this healing per second everyone has can't go live as it is. I cannot emphasize this enough.

    Healing on live is already out of control in PvP (talking about self-healing). With both ST heals being buffed by a massive amount I fail to see how anbody should die anymore in 1v1 situations. Not every build has access to Defile debuffs, Heck the least builds do. I don’t know why they felt the need to increase self-healing so much.

    I understand that group healing was nerfed but I am not sure that the buff to ST healing is warranted and should be the compensation for the other nerfs. It will be a pain in PvP when nobody dies anymore.
    Xbox Series X (EU)
    - Daggerfall Covenant -
  • Slowbromance
    Slowbromance
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    Has anyone been able to test group healing on PTS in PvP? Like really test its effectiveness? I get that healing in general seems to be hated by most of the PvP community, but I'm concerned of its viability after this patch. At this point the only group healing I'm seeing remain relevant is from Templars and Wardens, stam Wardens being the new preferred meta healer. While some players will adapt, this is going to kill a lot of the healing community in PvP.

    I kind of wish if AoE heal abilities were going to be changed as much as they are the restoration staff passives would have at least been revisited to help encourage group healing to some extent. Like, the more people you are healing up to a certain amount in the initial heal of a grand healing/blessing of protection will increase the healing done by a certain percentage since it's no longer spammable.

    I agree making abilities no longer spammable is a good change, but it feels like this is just forcing more people to self heal or just not main a heal role at all.
    Edited by Slowbromance on July 15, 2019 6:18PM
    -Shadow hide you
  • Iskiab
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    Logged onto PTS to check out some values and compare magicka to stamina, etc... Here are my thoughts:

    Overall:
    It’s hard to compare live with PTS and BGs were down so I didn’t get to play a game. Damage values from dots seem crazy high. Things like the soul line dot that’s aoe look like they’re really high. Healing in pvp will be much harder because of defensive nerfs so spike and incoming damage will be a lot higher then live. People when they complain about tankiness they mean other player’s tankiness and not their own, I think they’ll be lots of complaints about spike damage.

    Magicka Healing:
    1. Rapid regen is overshadowing most other healer abilities. At first I thought it was overtuned, but then compared it to dot damage and now I’m not sure. Even just one application of a 20k dot over 10 seconds from 4 people will be incredibly hard to heal. That’ll be one GCD from 4 doing 4K dps.
    2. Aoe healing values look low to me. Combat Prayer being buffed was a good change, but is it enough? The value per cast is only a little bit higher then one tick of rapid regen
    3. Some single target healing abilities look low to me. Abilities like healthy Offering and breath of life are relatively weaker now that everything else has been buffed

    Some abilities like healing springs I’m not even going to bring up. Now that the target cap has been removed from a lot of aoe abilities being clustered is a death sentence. Might have a use on classes without as many class heals but I won’t be using it.

    If PTS goes live I’ll probably (as a magblade) put refreshing path down, hit mutagen 4 times, spot heal with healthy Offering and do a little dps. Most pvp healing will revolve around mutagen or rapid regen.

    Stamina Healing:
    1. Vigor is a bit stronger then rapid regen when I checked. At its base value it’s the same, but with medium armour weapon damage buffs it seem stronger. Crit from light is easy to make up by dual wielding daggers.
    2. Circle of preservation is too small to really be effective. Minor endurance and protection is great, I don’t think the effects linger once people leave the area and that would be a good change
    3. One thing I noticed, access to major and minor mending isn’t equal across classes. Some classes will excel at stam healing and some won’t solely because of mending
    Edited by Iskiab on July 16, 2019 3:03AM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • Thraben
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    . At this point the only group healing I'm seeing remain relevant is from Templars and Wardens, stam Wardens being the new preferred meta healer. While some players will adapt, this is going to kill a lot of the healing community in PvP.

    There is no way to "really" test it. But your conclusions are correct.
    Hauptmann der Dolche des Königs

    DDK ist die letzte Verteidigungslinie des Dolchsturz- Bündnisses auf der 30-Tage-No-CP- Kampagne(EU) mit dem Anspruch, in kleinen, anfängerfreundlichen Raid-Gruppen möglichst epische Schlachten auszufechten.

    DDK is the Daggerfall Covenant´s last line of defense on the 30 days no-cp campaign (EU). We intend to fight epic battles in small, casual player friendly raid groups.
  • Slowbromance
    Slowbromance
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    Thraben wrote: »
    . At this point the only group healing I'm seeing remain relevant is from Templars and Wardens, stam Wardens being the new preferred meta healer. While some players will adapt, this is going to kill a lot of the healing community in PvP.

    There is no way to "really" test it. But your conclusions are correct.

    Yeah, we will just have to adapt once the patch drops.
    -Shadow hide you
  • Cinbri
    Cinbri
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    noCP, shieldstacker:
    shieldstacking.png
    And how you supposed to kill it with new Healing Ward that literally will bring him to full hp in 2 seconds?
    Edited by Cinbri on July 18, 2019 7:33PM
  • Iskiab
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    noCP, shieldstacker:
    shieldstacking.png
    And how you supposed to kill it with new Healing Ward that literally will bring him to full hp in 2 seconds?

    Healing ward isn’t a 10k shield.
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • Derra
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    noCP, shieldstacker:
    shieldstacking.png
    And how you supposed to kill it with new Healing Ward that literally will bring him to full hp in 2 seconds?

    Which is why smart people said: Rework/remove shieldstacking.

    What the nerfs to individual shields will achieve: More shieldstacking because recasting is less attractive at increased costs whereas stacking is more attractive to gain maximum value out of every single cast.

    Especially when holding shields to burstheal standards costwise which they can´t be compared to. You don´t use shields like a burstheal. Shields are used like a hot - kept active permanently.
    Then they´re also refreshed when dmged too much.
    The only time they´re used comparable to a burstheal is when the player lost a subtential amount of hp - and then they don´t have the same benefits as a burstheal - ie they do not refill your hp.

    Holding shields to a standard that is fundamentally different from how they´re used in practice doesn´t work.

    All i can say about the pts changes is: I´ve played with 1 shield quite some time on live. It was weaker than stacking but it worked. It doesn´t work on pts. I´ll slot 2 or 3 shields when this goes live.
    Is this really what people wanted to achieve regarding shields?
    Edited by Derra on July 19, 2019 6:37AM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Zer0oo
    Zer0oo
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    Please make while being in a grp that your hots and heals only affect group members.

    Less stress for the server.
    The group gets better control to only heal group members.
    Group stacking gets punished -> also less lag
    Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus
    - Update 23
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