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PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for PvP DPS

ZOS_GinaBruno
ZOS_GinaBruno
Community Manager
This is the official feedback thread for PvP DPS changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.
Gina Bruno
Senior Community Manager
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Staff Post
  • Thraben
    Thraben
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    This is the official feedback thread for PvP DPS changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

    1. I think the combat changes discourage playstyles which cause lag. And I appreciate that. Combat should be active, not reactive. You put a lot of effort in it, and I like the general direction of things. There is a lack of slows, though.

    2. StamWarden´s SubAssault must be nerfed to be as useless as Caltrops (aka AoE Dot standard), or be changed to a single target ability. I don´t see any other way how you could prevent boneshield- vigor stacking Warden balls which make life miserable for everyone. Not only do they outdps the other Stamclasses in AoE situations by a landslide, they are also outhealing every class except a MagTemplar.

    (And I´m saying this as a huge fan of the StamWarden, and one of the earliest users and proponents of this particular playstyle)

    People cannot cope with that playstyle and will rather join it than using countermeasures.

    3. StamSorcs need a Bound weapon spammable (active of effect of Bound Armaments, which activates the Pet passive? Even I as a PvE-TANK don`t use that blocking thing), a Stam curse, or a Stam frag (no one uses the AoE frag).

    4. MagSorc: Homogenize the pets along the Nightblade standards (which means: nerf their damage, but make them one bar, summoning time 30 seconds). We PetSorcs don`t want more damage, we just want to be able to use more skills in combat than... like... 3.
    Edited by Thraben on July 9, 2019 11:14AM
    Hauptmann der Dolche des Königs

    DDK ist die letzte Verteidigungslinie des Dolchsturz- Bündnisses auf der 30-Tage-No-CP- Kampagne(EU) mit dem Anspruch, in kleinen, anfängerfreundlichen Raid-Gruppen möglichst epische Schlachten auszufechten.

    DDK is the Daggerfall Covenant´s last line of defense on the 30 days no-cp campaign (EU). We intend to fight epic battles in small, casual player friendly raid groups.
  • GeorgeBlack
    GeorgeBlack
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    Stamina Classes need utility class abilities with stamina morphs in order for the identity of the class to shine and more builds to become available.

    Magika classes need a new magika weapon.

    Also PvP needs ZOS to fix the performance of the game.
    Edited by GeorgeBlack on July 9, 2019 11:40AM
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    Werewolf lost way too much damage. Werewolf is wet-noodle factory if next patch goes live as it is. Made a thread about the topic here:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484345/werewolf-scalebreaker-feedback-why-most-of-the-changes-are-unjustified-and-needs-tweaking/p1?new=1
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    (I did not know exactly where to post it, as it is general PvE / PvP feedback, as the issue I want to discuss is common and affect both PvE & PvP).

    Some initial feedback regarding Werewolf changes. There are some serious issues I would like to point out that should be looked in to, mostly concerning Pack Leader morph changes.

    I do understand that most of those changes were done because of issues this morph was causing in PvP. However, changes also affect PvE greatly. The main problem is that this morph was mainly picked because of wolf pets, that could “tank” DMG. This made the morph useful when facing difficult fights or dangerous enemies. Basically speaking, this morph is primarily picked as an ultimate of choice to be able to do more challenging Solo (or group) PvE content.

    Serious pain-points:

    1. Untargateble pets – inability to tank DMG & agro mobs.
    This means that off-tanking DMG in PvE is now gone. Pets Won’t be able to agro enemies and as a result the whole reason to even consider picking this morph for Solo or Group PvE is now gone. Wolf pets simply won’t be able to “tank” DMG.
    2. Utility offered by this morph is far too weak & unreliable.
    Since pets will be the one that will apply the de-buff (minor maim & snare), it will be VERY difficult to apply the de-buff where it is needed. Pets are steered by AI, and the AI is more or less “Derpy” or just Dumb. Pets may or may not attack enemy. Also “Pet control” players have is very limited. At best those pets will be able to de-buff 2 enemies, applying de-buff over & over to the same enemy (2 at best, since you have 2 wolf pets). This means that the effective up-time of this de-buff is very low, almost close to nothing (as pets wont simply switch target to de-buff another one). Also pets will have significantly less DMG which means that they will never be able to kill a mob on their own.

    Another issues is Snare. From PvE perspective, it is close to useless as Bosses are simply immune to snares. Also, there is snare immunity if you have been snared previously. So in a scenario mentioned above, when those pets will de-buff one enemy over & over it means that snare de-buff will simply be wasted 90% of times.
    3. Lack of DMG, Bleed DMG and AOE DMG on heavy attacks & very weak compensation.
    Compared to other morph (Werewolf Berserker) the Pack Leader morph will stay WAY behind in terms of DMG potential across the board. Utility (mentioned above) has a serious issues and it is far too weak to compensate the huge lack of DMG Pack Leader will now have.
    4. PvP wise, pets will have very little counter play.
    Since Pets will be untargetable and unkillable, There will be no way to avoid the minor maim de-buff and snare de-buff. The only counter play I see is roll-dodge mechanics, but for many builds (magicka ones especially) that is far too little.
    5. Almost no use-case.
    All factors combined will cause this morph to disappear. Not only from PvP but from PvE too. There simply won’t be a reason good enough for any one do decide to use Pack Leader morph. Berserker Werewolf, despite numerous Werewolf nerfs looks far superior in every possible scenario, role or type of content.

    Suggestion and ideas:

    If Pack Leader is supposed to be a Utility / Support morph (as PTS developer comment suggest), it will need far more utility than it offers now.

    - Adding a Tanut to Pack Leader morph heavy attack could work, and will fit perfectly in the developers vision of this morph being a utility / support morph.
    It will enable Werewolf to be used as tank in PvE (something that players wanted for a long time btw) and will keep this morph relevant and useful.

    Werewolf has more stamina pool and build in DMG mitigation, so it should make up for lack of % block cost reduction.

    However, If that won’t be enough, there is also a possibility to add block cost reduction to this morph (Since again, it is supposed to be focused more on utility / support and survival).

    Perhaps it could be tied to pets somehow. For example:
    5% base block cost reduction and some bonus if your pet attacked someone recently. Example: 3% for 10 seconds per pet if your pet attacked someone recently. Since you have 2 pets that could be 5% base +3% for one pet & 3% for other pet.

    Other way is to simply add 1% block cost reduction for 10 seconds per enemy attacked by pets, stacking up to 10 or something like that. So 5% base + up to 10%.

    Tbh. That would be more useful than proposed by ZOS, because as stated above in my post, de-buffing pets are VERY unreliable. If necessary , replace one of the pet de-buff with block cost reduction applied to you.

    So it will be a utility / support morph while the other, Werewolf Berserker will be a raw DPS / DMG morph. Fits perfectly.
    That way the trade off (Lack of DMG but instead ability to Taunt) will look far better and at least will be more or less justified & acceptable.
    - Make wolf pets so they could still be targeted by PvE mobs, but not the players. Otherwise pets won’t be able to agro / tank enemy mobs / NPCs or bosses, making them pointless.
  • Gnozo
    Gnozo
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    Thraben wrote: »
    2. StamWarden´s SubAssault must be nerfed to be as useless as Caltrops (aka AoE Dot standard), or be changed to a single target ability. I don´t see any other way how you could prevent boneshield- vigor stacking Warden balls which make life miserable for everyone. Not only do they outdps the other Stamclasses in AoE situations by a landslide, they are also outhealing every class except a MagTemplar.

    So you want to remove the aoe burst Potential from stamwarden? Their main class idendity?

    Please No.
  • NBrookus
    NBrookus
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    RE: Unstable Core
    There is no way for a person who has UC on them to know what stage they are at other than counting. There's no visual. We have this elsewhere with Curse and shields, so it's not a new mechanic. However, since the bubble can be reapplied early, you can't just wait 1.1 seconds to avoid the hard stun at the end and eat the immobilize.

    In a 1v1, this is no issue, you will see the player reapply it. Open world, you will be able to have the bubble reset on you at range by another templar you don't even see, so the method of countering that's isn't purge becomes unreliable. There needs to be a clear visual indicator of the stage of the bubble in order to have reliable counterplay.

    PC NA
    Breton Magicka Sorcerer, Breton Magicka Templar, Dunmer Magicka DK, Bosmer Stamina NB, Nord Stamina Warden, Redguard Stamina Necro
    Dunmer Magicka DK, Argonian Magicka Templar, Altmer Magicka NB, Breton Magicka Sorcerer, Orc Stamina Warden
    Dunmer Magicka DK, Argonian Magicka Templar, Altmer Magicka Sorcerer
  • Zer0oo
    Zer0oo
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    after some short testing(nice pts lag):

    both morphs of eclipse are way to op and anyone defending them is extreme bias
    compared to other ccs they offer way too much (most cc only have one additional weak effect like low damage after not breaking the cc - rune cage)
    they have almost no counterplay


    healing ward still seems to be quite bad:
    to get the heal from this skill, you have to protect it with another shield but they got nerfed and are expensive. In my testing i got almost no healing from this skill when i needed it. Any other hot would have helped me more.

    All stam players have now 100% uptime on aoe reduction:
    this will be harsh on classes depending on aoe skill
    is really bad for all mag classes since they have mainly access to aoe ulti and they have weak defense against aoe skills (buffing aoe skill would be a bad idea)

    twillight hits now for nearly nothing and do not even do half the damage of a normal dot. It can die, is stupid as hell, hard to control, has a cast time and needs to be on both bar on a class with no overloaded skill (really hard to fit every skill needed on the bar) and has only scaling on mag so it is even weaker if not specced for max mag. The heal maybe ok but for a class without any healing boosting passives or good buffs it is weaker than other compareable healing skills bol or dragon blood.
    Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus
    - Update 23
  • ecru
    ecru
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    OtarTheMad wrote: »
    I think Boneyard got nerfed too much. The per tick damage is just blah now and needs to be increased.

    Also Blastbones still acts a bit drunk but I need to do more testing.

    Yeah, boneyard covers a pretty small area and the damage is really, really weak without consuming a corpse now, like 60% of the damage of a lot of the newer dots that have been added. Even trying to consume a corpse with every cast, entropy still did more damage in a parse. Ground aoes that small and obvious are really easy to avoid, they should do more damage and standing in them should be at least somewhat punishing.
    Gryphon Heart
    Godslayer
    Dawnbringer
  • MincVinyl
    MincVinyl
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    Yeah so imagine all the stamplars running around pvp wearing the new azureblight set, stacking master dw, both axe bleeds, DDots, soul trap(maybe). Then going into potl > onslaught > jabs > jabs >jabs.

    Probs getting hit with 20-30k or more in dots, then hit with a 15k onslaught getting perfect pen on those dots into 11k blight while some idiot is spamming jabs on you.

    If you want to make it dirtier i'm sure bloodthirsty traits would take over for you after the onslaught blight burst.
  • sweatapodimas
    sweatapodimas
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    Cast time on DB and Incap/SH is extremely awkward as it stands. LA weaving and, especially, animation canceling is making bursting down a tanky player near impossible. There are many threads on this already.
    Edited by sweatapodimas on July 10, 2019 1:06AM
    "Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
  • OOJIMMY
    OOJIMMY
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    MincVinyl wrote: »
    Yeah so imagine all the stamplars running around pvp wearing the new azureblight set, stacking master dw, both axe bleeds, DDots, soul trap(maybe). Then going into potl > onslaught > jabs > jabs >jabs.

    Probs getting hit with 20-30k or more in dots, then hit with a 15k onslaught getting perfect pen on those dots into 11k blight while some idiot is spamming jabs on you.

    If you want to make it dirtier i'm sure bloodthirsty traits would take over for you after the onslaught blight burst.

    Jabs did not count towards the azureblight. First thing I tested when the pts went live.
    I'd be more afraid of stam dks.
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
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    WW gutted.

    Packleader is now a useless trash morph again. It now NEEDS the meatshields and at least half the dmg of bleed on live to even be considered useable by anyone with any spec.

    You wanted to encourage skills other than LA and you nerf all the alternatives leaving it as hot garbage and 40k less than other endgame builds.

    The heal is so bad now. I have a build with 33k health and that's only a 6k heal. Think about a normal build... it's worse than it was before. You should now just make it stam and scale with stam. Lower the cost of everything else by a good amount to compensate. Have mag be for block and roar instead. Hircine protects Idrc.
    Edited by Wolf_Watching on July 10, 2019 6:50AM
    Wuuffyy,
    ESO player since 2014
    -PM for questions
  • Narvuntien
    Narvuntien
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    Well I did a simple dummy test for my Onslaught Ganker and bamn still doing the same kind of damage as I was last patch. But I will have to try it in actual PVP because the change from 8 to 5 secs of bezerk from camo hunter will be a big deal for its practical use but I like that I"ll now be able to AoE onslaught and be useful into groups and then be able to execute more effectively with the penetration boost.

    Snipe damage is still not particularly high but its nice to have some of the damage back and keep the easier casting for the ability.
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    @Derra shields are a little too potent on live and the fact that you can spam them indefinitely (I'm over exaggerating) unlike dodge rolling; which is a less reliable defense than damage shields. If damage shields were affected by Defile I would agree that shields will become useless, but since they're not they'll still remain to be a potent means of defense, but they need to be used in conjunction with heals. The fact that sorcs are able to get away without slotting a heal (you can get away with just going the Resto Ult) on live is a testimony to the potency of damage shields.

    On the PTS magsorcs can still shield stack, but now they also have multiple potent heals, and they still maintain the best mobility in the game.
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    Narvuntien wrote: »
    Well I did a simple dummy test for my Onslaught Ganker and bamn still doing the same kind of damage as I was last patch. But I will have to try it in actual PVP because the change from 8 to 5 secs of bezerk from camo hunter will be a big deal for its practical use but I like that I"ll now be able to AoE onslaught and be useful into groups and then be able to execute more effectively with the penetration boost.

    Snipe damage is still not particularly high but its nice to have some of the damage back and keep the easier casting for the ability.

    The fact that you can boost Snipe's strength by 25% with the new expert hunter morph is just going to make gankers thrive again.
  • Glory
    Glory
    Class Representative
    Derra wrote: »
    @ZOS_Gilliam

    Annulment and morphs are flatout not useable anymore compared to what focusing on direct and heal over time abilities provides. The light armor shields offer too little protection for way too much cost.

    Hardened ward remains semi vaible/usable but is also too expensive when comparing it to other means of protection (healing) - specifically in the light of sorcerers not having any healing synergies in their class toolkit.

    Holding a shield towards burst heal standards does not work as burstheals are an entirely reactive defense - you use them when you need to heal.
    Shields are a mixture between proactive and reactive defense meaning holding them towards burst heal standards flatout doesn´t work.
    You´re permanently casting shields to prevent HP dmg (yes you let them drop sometimes but it´s not adviseable AT ALL for extended periods of time). This comes at a huge resource drain over time in fights where you have to shield in situations where a class with burst + over time heals probably would not use their burst healing. The second issue connected to this is the need to permanently use gcds for defense where other builds would not.
    This permanent resource + gcd drain has to be considered when evaluating shields and from my perspective it was not when making the pts changes.

    Hardened ward worked pretty well in that regard on live (talking only hardened ward without stacking it with annulment + morphs) - as it´s cost was relatively in the middle of the true burst heals and the cheaper hots. That´s where shields fit in application wise imo. They´re usage is a hybrid between how hots and burst heals are used.

    The only advantage shields offer over a straight up burstheal (once your health is gone) is not being affected by defile.
    Their downsides are:
    No major or minor buffs affecting their potency.
    No favorable interaction with block (dmg on shields doesn´t get reduced by block but you lose stam/mag anyway).
    No class passives or item sets affecting their potency.
    They do not bring you out of execute range.
    They do not crit.

    I could see the point of reducing their potency slightly (as was done on pts) if breaking a player purely spamming them on defense was considered too hard. I wouldn´t neccessarily agree but i could see the point and wouldn´t argue it.
    I disagree with hardened cost increase and the cost of dampen magica related to it´s shield strengh (the harness nerf was well deserved and even though the current version will hardly ever get used i prefer an unusable skill to an op one - needs a rework though).

    I agree with this. Shields this patch feel extremely underwhelming.

    I got to about 30% health in a duel, and had to cast healing ward 5 times to let my HoT (rapid regen) tick me up to only 50% health. The healing wards that fight healed me twice for 2.4k max.
    mDK will rise again.
    Rebuild Necromancer pet AI.

    @Glorious since I have too many characters to list

    Ádamant

    Strongly against Faction Lock
  • IonicKai
    IonicKai
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    Daus wrote: »
    @Derra shields are a little too potent on live and the fact that you can spam them indefinitely (I'm over exaggerating) unlike dodge rolling; which is a less reliable defense than damage shields. If damage shields were affected by Defile I would agree that shields will become useless, but since they're not they'll still remain to be a potent means of defense, but they need to be used in conjunction with heals. The fact that sorcs are able to get away without slotting a heal (you can get away with just going the Resto Ult) on live is a testimony to the potency of damage shields.

    On the PTS magsorcs can still shield stack, but now they also have multiple potent heals, and they still maintain the best mobility in the game.

    MagSorc shield stacking can prolong a fight but a good stam will keep them on the ropes until they run out of magicka. Shield stacking should have been taken away not continual nerfs of shields.
  • Glory
    Glory
    Class Representative
    Ground placed AoEs feel extremely lackluster.

    It makes sense in some ways (more enemies that it can hit, therefore the damage will be lower).

    However, with the increased single target DoT damage and the seen reductions in damage to most AoE DoTs, the disparity really shines.

    I think we all understand that AoEs most often deserve to have lower damage output than single target (particularly PBAoE's like Pulsar, Sap, Scythe, etc.), but ground placed AoEs are so easily avoided in PvP that the damage they do + the lack of reliability make them feel terrible.

    I fully understand the fear of having AoEs be king, but ground placed AoEs require tactical placement and are so much more hit and miss. Compared to single target AoEs, which let you apply without any tactical requirements and do significantly more damage, ground placed AoEs are useless unless they provide additional utility (i.e. Ice Wall root).

    In this state, classes that have ground placed AoEs are very unlikely to utilize them, as it makes far more sense to slot Soul Trap/Entropy than it does to use the lackluster Boneyard/Winter's Revenge/Totem/Path etc. for damage in PvP.
    mDK will rise again.
    Rebuild Necromancer pet AI.

    @Glorious since I have too many characters to list

    Ádamant

    Strongly against Faction Lock
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