Let's Define Pay to Win, then think about whether buying skill lines are really P2W

Facefister

Morgul667 wrote: »

I think it s fine as long as it does not go further than that

They will and the "P2C" will do all kind of mental gymnastics in order to excuse that.

JamilaRaj

Marcus684 wrote: »

Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »

volkeswagon wrote: »

I don't think buying skyshards and skill lines on other characters is pay to win because you have to work to aquire them first before you can buy them on alt toons. I don't want to have to collect all the skyshards and lorebooks again on each toon if I can bypass that because that is a pain in the but and is too time consuming. Once is enough

I agree with you.


But the craft bag is def pay 2 win as you can only get it through a paid subscription. If they offered a limited craftbag for free i might feel differently. But until i see what that looks like, it's def pay to win for the craftbag.

What do you "win" by having a crafting bag? The biggest pile of stuff? Get real.

Time, of course. Inventory management, given inventory/bank/mailbox space limits and sheer and ever increasing number of items that are moreover shoved to players at every turn from login to logout, is very time consuming and crafting bag reduces overhead significantly.
If you spend X hours playing the game, say, grinding gear, you will gain power Y granted by that gear. Out of these X hours, however, only Z hours are actually spent productively, the rest is consumed by chores like cleaning up inventory, shifting load between mules etc. Not only is that annoying, but, depending on whether you pay or not for a crafting bag, it also implies that paying and not paying players spending comparable X have different Z and therefore different Y. Basically ZOS is selling power for money in typical obfuscated fashion to allow players pretend that is not the case.

miteba wrote: »

idk wrote: »

P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.

Just to highlight this!
It seems people are eager to categorize this game as P2W, just because...

oxygen_thief wrote: »

you cant win without the game and you cant get it without paying. thus you pay for the game to win so its definitely p2w.

I would give you more awesomes, if i could xD
Following this theory, lets just add that almost all games are obviously buyable, so almost all are P2W, so people should focus and criticize those who arent P2W, for a change.

Those who do not buy the game are not players; they do not participate in the game, you do not interact, let alone compete with them, you are not buying any advantage over them.
In other words, he omits advantage from his definition of P2W, but ultimately, who cares? Some of us criticize precisely the practice of selling advantages and whether it is called P2W or plain old corruption does not matter.

KalinRan

JamilaRaj wrote: »

In other words, he omits advantage from his definition of P2W, but ultimately, who cares? Some of us criticize precisely the practice of selling advantages and whether it is called P2W or plain old corruption does not matter.

Is it pay to win if everyone has to work for it first?
Does it matter if somebody's alt is stronger than a new player, if at the time the new player started the game, the person who paid was already stronger anyway on his main character?
The new player canont catch up with veterans by paying either, because he has to work for it first too.
Buying skill lines on your alt that you have to work for on your main is just not p2w, it's simply ridiculous that people see it as such.

As for the craft bag it's highly more debatable, I can understand calling it pay to win and also not calling it pay to win.

In my humble opinion it is not, because craft bag only comes with membership, you can't buy it on its own.
In my case, I only ever buy membership for unlimited access to all DLC areas, and I don't have to spend money on purchasing each individual DLC.
If the developers make something, they should get paid for it, and this should always be the case.
If the way I pay for that content gives me a feature that saves me some time on top of it, in my eyes that's just a bonus to the deal, not something I paid for.

And since the membership also gives you its value worth in crowns on top of everything else, if you want to buy new areas at all, then the best way to do it is through membership.
"What if I want that content immediately" is not an argument, because membership gives you both the money to permanently buy that content AND immediate access to all content.

"What do you do when you purchased all DLC and have nothing else to do with membership anymore? Isn't that just paying for the craft bag alone?" If you purchased all the DLC then you already funded more DLC to be made, so you'll never run out of people buying membership for a new area. You're never buying the craft bag directly for the craft bag, because each time they're forcing you to also pay for all those maintenance fees to keep the servers running for those who didn't pay.
The craft bag is the developers rewarding those who funded more content to come.

But I can see both sides of the argument, and I think it depends on personal view for that one. But skill lines? Definitely not P2W.

Shokasegambit1

msalvia wrote: »

Here again we have a language problem: like so many of these posts, we don't have a clear definition of what we're talking about. P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. Unlocking a full skill line at level 3 is NOT ACCESSIBLE WITHOUT PAYING and it absolutely does give you a strategic advantage; therefore it's Pay to win.

It doesn't matter if you've done it before. It doesn't matter if it's convenient. Craft bag is convenient--it's NOT p2w. Skyshards is convenient--it's NOT p2w (since you can have all the skshards--your level 3 can only use a few right now, thus no strategic advantage). We need to recognize that buying a fully levelled skill line is ABSOLUTELY pay to win, even if it's not game-breaking. Have fun in those under 50 BGs, folks, if you don't think this is P2W, when your opponent has all their undaunted passives (impossible to get without paying for it), full Fighter's Guild skill lines (which you would necessarily have to level through, ya know, playing the game), etc.

FOr example, imagine 2 players on brand new toons in a duel. Both have the same cp alotted, the same gear, the same skill level. Which one has the strategic advantage? The one with fully levelled skills (BIS ultimate and great passives from FG, defense from psijic, mag recovery and total from Mage's Guild, 6% more stats from undaunted) that are impossible for a level 3 to get? Or the one who does not have these skills? Obviously, the first player has the strategic advantage. And is it possible for a level three to gain these skills WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT? WE just arrived at the definition of P2W.

Point being, P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. You cannot level up these skills lines on a brand new toon without paying for it. So by definition, this is P2W.

Note: This is the first time I've ever agreed that anything in this game is P2W. My forum history is usually really different on this topic, but here we're finally getting into P2W territory. I invite constructive responses to my logic, fully expecting the typical forum fare.

Since this post will go on forever...

Il just leave this here for the majority world gaming community agrees with to define Pay2Win

"Establishing a competitive game that is skill-based is the key. If you’re knowledgeable about the game, you should be able to have a shot at winning, even against someone who has spent more money. It’s when the “wallet warriors” always win that causes other players to get frustrated and bail out."
- IGN

You might have not have caught the, "skill based" part.

Also everything that is said is subjective. It's all personal opinion and nothing less.
I am not bothered and interested in arguing back as this conversation is literally going to go nowhere and it's just going to keep going and going. I'm just growing tired of these posts in ESO.


Obviously some people do not understand the term, we have noticed this in several threads, including this one now, and it's the main cause of all the aggressive arguments around this question. This is meant to be something positive, not another wall of spam and arguments.

To each it's own - and different strokes for different folks.

The End - 👍

And to okie doke every one... Check out my new topic.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/485213/lets-talk-about-eso-skill-vs-esports-skill/p1

JamilaRaj

KalinRan wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

In other words, he omits advantage from his definition of P2W, but ultimately, who cares? Some of us criticize precisely the practice of selling advantages and whether it is called P2W or plain old corruption does not matter.

Is it pay to win if everyone has to work for it first?
Does it matter if somebody's alt is stronger than a new player, if at the time the new player started the game, the person who paid was already stronger anyway on his main character?
The new player canont catch up with veterans by paying either, because he has to work for it first too.
Buying skill lines on your alt that you have to work for on your main is just not p2w, it's simply ridiculous that people see it as such.

Yes, it is P2W. See, comparing new player's character with veteran's main will not tell you anything about P2W; stronger character is stronger, microtransactions will not change that, but there are no microtransactions involved to begin with, therefore no effects to observe.
Let's consider alts of two veterans instead, where the effect will be obvious. One of them will pay and will then have more power derived from unlocked skill lines than the other, not because he worked for it, the other veteran worked for it too, but because he paid. It is power for money, as P2W as it can be.

KalinRan wrote: »

As for the craft bag it's highly more debatable, I can understand calling it pay to win and also not calling it pay to win.

In my humble opinion it is not, because craft bag only comes with membership, you can't buy it on its own.
In my case, I only ever buy membership for unlimited access to all DLC areas, and I don't have to spend money on purchasing each individual DLC.
If the developers make something, they should get paid for it, and this should always be the case.
If the way I pay for that content gives me a feature that saves me some time on top of it, in my eyes that's just a bonus to the deal, not something I paid for.

And since the membership also gives you its value worth in crowns on top of everything else, if you want to buy new areas at all, then the best way to do it is through membership.
"What if I want that content immediately" is not an argument, because membership gives you both the money to permanently buy that content AND immediate access to all content.

"What do you do when you purchased all DLC and have nothing else to do with membership anymore? Isn't that just paying for the craft bag alone?" If you purchased all the DLC then you already funded more DLC to be made, so you'll never run out of people buying membership for a new area. You're never buying the craft bag directly for the craft bag, because each time they're forcing you to also pay for all those maintenance fees to keep the servers running for those who didn't pay.
The craft bag is the developers rewarding those who funded more content to come.

But I can see both sides of the argument, and I think it depends on personal view for that one. But skill lines? Definitely not P2W.

abigfishy

If you define P2W stupidly enough then EVERYTHING ever is pay to win.

You didn't buy a sub to WOW so you can't play so it is pay to win.

I have a faster internet connection and better PC than you so Fortnite/LOL/COD/Starcraft whatever is pay to win.

You have slightly better eyesight because you bought glasses so rock, paper, scissors is pay to win.

You went to a fancy private school while someone else went to a ghetto school, so life is pay to win.

Please stop making the definition so wide that is it meaningless.


If ZoS sold a BiS CP200 armour set that you could ONLY get in the crown shop that would be pay to win.

Stuff that you can get for free in the game anyway (without totally unreasonable grind) is not pay to win.

Please stop.

Pallio

If you compete in professional RP competitions, it is P2W.

Pallio

Also to actually be able to compete during prime time PvP, you have to have a very high end computer...

Shokasegambit1

abigfishy wrote: »

You have slightly better eyesight because you bought glasses so rock, paper, scissors is pay to win.

I spit out my coffee in laughter after I read that omg Lmfao !

Number 1 comment I read this year. 👍

ZarkingFrued

It's not pay to win. No one has an advantage aside from grind time. DLC however..

Pashen

6 Pages later, what is really about is who has what in "Baby PvP" like the whole game revolves around this. Wake up call, it doesn't.

I rarely pvp, and even if I do.. it is not in Baby PvP. I don't see any of this, meaning buying skill lines on the crown store as a problem. I see it as a blessing.

I have a full plethora of characters on my account. I have done the skill lines again ..and again...and well again....
I really don't want to do them over and over for all these characters. it gets dull after character 5. This applies for Skyshards as well.
So thank you ZOS for doing this.

Drakostax

Warning: Below-50 PvP rant ahead.

TBH the quick and easy solution would be to gate the purchases until Lv 50. I get a lot of people here consider 'baby PvP' to be an insignificant point of argument, but it's still an aspect of the game. Completely dismissing it is not the right thing to do and it should be treated with similar respect as should be expected in vet PvP and PvE and everything else.

Personally I spend a lot of my time in lowbie cyro to learn new classes in an environment that isn't drowning in meta setups. Obviously the people who want to can pretty easily rock full gold, meta gear in below-50s but even then, the nature of leveling rates and differences in level mean there's no real 'min-max' to the whole thing. At lv 20 you have certain skills and passives that just won't be available to you, for example.

Enter the ability to buy out skillines however, and you're adding another layer of imbalance to the system that I don't see as anything short of unhealthy. It encourages this 'wallet warrior' behaviour which, as stated previously, is crossing over the line of P2W. Of course, that's probably what ZOS wants, and it'll end up being another facet for income rather than a semi-serious issue that should probably be considered...

Simply put; in the below-50 PvP environment, of which is still a designed, functioning aspect of the game, the ability to buy out skillines and obtain passives and such when otherwise it would be impossible to do is not on. Someone burning 25 of their 50 levels to start with Dawnbreaker in below-50 is one thing; someone starting with Dawnbreaker, full Mage's guild passives, a 6% max resource bonus from Undaunted and access to the entire Psijic skilline, all at Lv 10, is another thing entirely.

Anyway. Rant rant rant. TLDR: ZOS please just gate this *** to lv50 characters. Please. This'll kill all the P2W skilline complaining and we can go back to screaming over cyro lag. That's what you'd prefer to listen to, right?

zaria

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »

volkeswagon wrote: »

I don't think buying skyshards and skill lines on other characters is pay to win because you have to work to aquire them first before you can buy them on alt toons. I don't want to have to collect all the skyshards and lorebooks again on each toon if I can bypass that because that is a pain in the but and is too time consuming. Once is enough

I agree with you.


But the craft bag is def pay 2 win as you can only get it through a paid subscription. If they offered a limited craftbag for free i might feel differently. But until i see what that looks like, it's def pay to win for the craftbag.

What do you "win" by having a crafting bag? The biggest pile of stuff? Get real.

Time, of course. Inventory management, given inventory/bank/mailbox space limits and sheer and ever increasing number of items that are moreover shoved to players at every turn from login to logout, is very time consuming and crafting bag reduces overhead significantly.
If you spend X hours playing the game, say, grinding gear, you will gain power Y granted by that gear. Out of these X hours, however, only Z hours are actually spent productively, the rest is consumed by chores like cleaning up inventory, shifting load between mules etc. Not only is that annoying, but, depending on whether you pay or not for a crafting bag, it also implies that paying and not paying players spending comparable X have different Z and therefore different Y. Basically ZOS is selling power for money in typical obfuscated fashion to allow players pretend that is not the case.

Part of the reason I left ESO after around a year was the inventory minigame. Still has issue with ESO+ however I can now do cleanup less often. But for me its an sub based game with an free demo
Others who are not so much of an hoarder can manage without but for many its probably an pain in the ass.

ESO+ also comes with another benefit: access to all dlc, Orcinium is required for vMA weapons and its lots of BiS sets in dlc.
However I do not see BiS sets in DLC as P2W as its new content, also players demanded better trial sets in Summerset as the original ones was weak so we got multiple bis sets instead.

Delparis

they are yes

Zenimax should have made this feature free without going to the cash shop.

Clearely a Pay to Win

Dracheimflug

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Yes, it is P2W. See, comparing new player's character with veteran's main will not tell you anything about P2W; stronger character is stronger, microtransactions will not change that, but there are no microtransactions involved to begin with, therefore no effects to observe.
Let's consider alts of two veterans instead, where the effect will be obvious. One of them will pay and will then have more power derived from unlocked skill lines than the other, not because he worked for it, the other veteran worked for it too, but because he paid. It is power for money, as P2W as it can be.

Technically you are correct, but where your argument falls apart is assuming anyone cares about the PvP stats of such lower level characters. In PVP in ESO are characters even matched up by level?

KalinRan

JamilaRaj wrote: »

KalinRan wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

In other words, he omits advantage from his definition of P2W, but ultimately, who cares? Some of us criticize precisely the practice of selling advantages and whether it is called P2W or plain old corruption does not matter.

Is it pay to win if everyone has to work for it first?
Does it matter if somebody's alt is stronger than a new player, if at the time the new player started the game, the person who paid was already stronger anyway on his main character?
The new player canont catch up with veterans by paying either, because he has to work for it first too.
Buying skill lines on your alt that you have to work for on your main is just not p2w, it's simply ridiculous that people see it as such.

Yes, it is P2W. See, comparing new player's character with veteran's main will not tell you anything about P2W; stronger character is stronger, microtransactions will not change that, but there are no microtransactions involved to begin with, therefore no effects to observe.
Let's consider alts of two veterans instead, where the effect will be obvious. One of them will pay and will then have more power derived from unlocked skill lines than the other, not because he worked for it, the other veteran worked for it too, but because he paid. It is power for money, as P2W as it can be.

I didn't compare two veteran players' alts because that's specifically where I don't see any problem. Both of them already have a character that have maxed skill lines. The one that didn't pay can switch to his main at any point if his main is stronger.

One thing that bothers me is that this is also always argued in a strictly theoretical pvp scenario where the two players compete on alts.
I don't know about you, but pvp is the last place I consider to take my unprepared alts to. Until I finish building them properly with what I learned about the game by that point, I don't do pvp on them.
If I lose because I got there unprepared, it was my fault. The other player that killed me may or may not have paid for a skill line, but I couldn't possibly know if they did, and they most likely wouldn't be there either if they were unprepared either.

By all means, paying for skill lines is just pay to be ready faster, not pay to win, you don't win anything.
In the hypothetical dueling scenario given by the OP, the player that did not pay has the option to refuse the duel if he feels unprepared. The player that paid is just combat ready faster, but he cannot enforce that as an advantage over anyone unless granted permission to.

Banana

All P2W comments should be automatically removed from this place.

Merlight

KalinRan wrote: »

One thing that bothers me is that this is also always argued in a strictly theoretical pvp scenario where the two players compete on alts.

Strictly theoretical? You do realize this game has a PvP mode that some players choose to play specifically because it has no CP, much fewer proc sets available, nobody has every skill levelled there, so choices matter, etc?

FinneganFroth

Honestly people should actually play a pay to win game before making claims that ESO is pay to win...I've played a MUD called Achaea since about 2002. Though the game is text-based, it is incredibly immersive and well put together, however it is the pure and simple definition of pay to win (one of the first of its kind honestly). Here you go straight from the horse's mouth:

"Achaea's controversial revenue structure has received attention from the game development industry. Although Iron Realms Entertainment provides a custom MUD interface for the game, there are neither up-front costs, nor monthly fees typical for the MMORPG-genre. Instead, players may spend money for credits that are then used in-game to acquire skills and superior equipment.

Recently, however, Achaea has somewhat deviated from this model. In early 2010, the option to purchase an Iron Elite membership became available, which periodically gives players credits and other bonuses in exchange for a monthly fee.

Nevertheless, some aspects of the game have met with criticism. The game's revenue system, in particular, has faced mixed opinions. Players playing for free "won't be able to advance as much as the person who has the funds" without a considerable time investment, which often sparks controversy between free players and those who paid for in-game bonuses that can cost as much as 2500 credits, the equivalent of $725 per item. The IGDA acknowledges that the system requires "delicate issues of design balance"."

MUCH different than pay for convenience or pay for cosmetics...

JamilaRaj

KalinRan wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

KalinRan wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

In other words, he omits advantage from his definition of P2W, but ultimately, who cares? Some of us criticize precisely the practice of selling advantages and whether it is called P2W or plain old corruption does not matter.

Is it pay to win if everyone has to work for it first?
Does it matter if somebody's alt is stronger than a new player, if at the time the new player started the game, the person who paid was already stronger anyway on his main character?
The new player canont catch up with veterans by paying either, because he has to work for it first too.
Buying skill lines on your alt that you have to work for on your main is just not p2w, it's simply ridiculous that people see it as such.

Yes, it is P2W. See, comparing new player's character with veteran's main will not tell you anything about P2W; stronger character is stronger, microtransactions will not change that, but there are no microtransactions involved to begin with, therefore no effects to observe.
Let's consider alts of two veterans instead, where the effect will be obvious. One of them will pay and will then have more power derived from unlocked skill lines than the other, not because he worked for it, the other veteran worked for it too, but because he paid. It is power for money, as P2W as it can be.

I didn't compare two veteran players' alts because that's specifically where I don't see any problem. Both of them already have a character that have maxed skill lines. The one that didn't pay can switch to his main at any point if his main is stronger.

Look, if one pays nothing and switches to stronger main, while the other pays for skill lines and remains on alt, they are on par, but if he did not pay, he would be weaker, so he still bought power for money and the reason why you do not see it as clear advantage on absolute scale is that for your comparison you choose characters that are inequal in the first place.

KalinRan wrote: »

One thing that bothers me is that this is also always argued in a strictly theoretical pvp scenario where the two players compete on alts.
I don't know about you, but pvp is the last place I consider to take my unprepared alts to. Until I finish building them properly with what I learned about the game by that point, I don't do pvp on them.
If I lose because I got there unprepared, it was my fault. The other player that killed me may or may not have paid for a skill line, but I couldn't possibly know if they did, and they most likely wouldn't be there either if they were unprepared either.

By all means, paying for skill lines is just pay to be ready faster, not pay to win, you don't win anything.
In the hypothetical dueling scenario given by the OP, the player that did not pay has the option to refuse the duel if he feels unprepared. The player that paid is just combat ready faster, but he cannot enforce that as an advantage over anyone unless granted permission to.

msalvia

Gnozo wrote: »

By your definition the game is actually p2w tho.

Instant Research scrolls in crown Store allow you to learn every trait in one day. The non crown Store Scrolls have a cooldown.

Werewolf and Vampire Skill lines.

Juwelry crafting.

So just adding the possibility to Instant buy guild skill lines wont do much in this tbh. While i actually dont think this part is p2w.

None of this fits my definition:

Research scrolls and crafting in general do not create an advantage that is only gained by paying:

idk wrote: »

P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.

My guess is OP has never really played a P2W game based on how wrong they are here.

Fair enough, I do avoid shamelessly P2W games. And I also think your definition is valid, but limited. I know this is a big ask for a forum, but maybe illustrate why my definition is wrong if you're gonna call it wrong.

msalvia

El_Borracho wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

Lol at people here trying to redefine words. “Pay to Win” literally means use money to gain an advantage in a competition over another person that isn’t available without purchase. Buying max skill lines on alts is pay to win in lowbie pvp and that’s it. ZOS just needs to make the purchasable skill lines only active for level 50 characters, and it’s no longer pay to win. Cosmetics aren’t a competition. Furnishings aren’t a competition. The number of *** flames coming out of your mount’s ass isn’t a competition. Some people just need to get a grip.

EXACTLY. And the "advantage" would be short-lived as the time it takes to level from 1-50 is also short. Do people really want to win in Kyne this badly?

I agree. Baby pvp is really the only place I would maybe call this P2W (hence my example in the OP and my saying it's a baby step toward P2W, not a gamebreaker).

msalvia

Mr_Walker wrote: »

msalvia wrote: »

Here again we have a language problem: like so many of these posts, we don't have a clear definition of what we're talking about.

No, we do, it's just that some people like to use their own definitions.

So should i interpret this as you not accepting my definition? Do you have your own? Or is this just standard forum flippancy?

Pops_ND_Irish

Not P2W Just another reason for the whine owls to complain.

What do you win ? What advantage ?

msalvia

Pops_ND_Irish wrote: »

Not P2W Just another reason for the whine owls to complain.

What do you win ? What advantage ?

Clearly explained in OP, please read b4 posting.

msalvia

kargen27 wrote: »

" P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying"

"You cannot level up these skills lines on a brand new toon without paying for it. So by definition, this is P2W."

Meaning you can level up these skills. So the skills are accessible by playing. They take longer to gain but they are accessible. So by your own definition this is not pay to win.

I don't like the change for other reasons. I don't think skipping content for convenience is good for the game.

No, if you look at my logic, I said you can NOT level these skills at low levels. You're reading this as if I said you CAN.

And sure, you could probably (but not plausibly) level up undaunted to 10 without gaining any xp to make a point, but who would ever do that for real (except maybe the trolliest baby pvp player in tamriel)? Who wants to play the game on a baby toon WITHOUT LEVELING UP?

msalvia

And for the record, I could care less about P2W stuff. My forum history shows that I have never agreed that anything else is P2W in eso. And this isn't a "the world is falling" post to all the people who read the title and posted without reading it. But it seems like a line is being blurred a little bit here. We've come a long way from "everything in crown store is cosmetic and clear pay for convenience" is all I'm trying to say

BrooksP

abigfishy wrote: »

If you define P2W stupidly enough then EVERYTHING ever is pay to win.

You didn't buy a sub to WOW so you can't play so it is pay to win.

I have a faster internet connection and better PC than you so Fortnite/LOL/COD/Starcraft whatever is pay to win.

You have slightly better eyesight because you bought glasses so rock, paper, scissors is pay to win.

You went to a fancy private school while someone else went to a ghetto school, so life is pay to win.

Please stop making the definition so wide that is it meaningless.


If ZoS sold a BiS CP200 armour set that you could ONLY get in the crown shop that would be pay to win.

Stuff that you can get for free in the game anyway (without totally unreasonable grind) is not pay to win.

Please stop.

It isn't really about broadening the term, but keeping the definition simple, otherwise "what is/isn't P2W' continues to get pushed further and further.

Anything that can be bought that impacts gameplay, was the basic and simple definition. So in reality anything outside of cosmetics is P2W.

Even your example doesn't match what people seem to throw around as the definition of P2W, as you can buy crowns with ingame gold, therefor the BiS CP200 armor is obtainable with ingame means therefor isn't P2W. See the problem?

Also a bit of a strawman on the first part.

Pops_ND_Irish

msalvia wrote: »

Pops_ND_Irish wrote: »

Not P2W Just another reason for the whine owls to complain.

What do you win ? What advantage ?

Clearly explained in OP, please read b4 posting.

Again, what do you win ?

Michae

I'm not a seasoned pvp player but is this really that much of an issue? You don't stay long in baby pvp for that to be really relevant. I use Battlegrounds to level my characters. Sometimes I win, most of the time they wipe the floor with me. People are already farming sets specifically for it so there is much power imbalance depending on how much you prepare. I use baby Battlegrounds as levelling tool and to look up new tactics. It doesn't really last long enough before I level up for me to care about someone having bought a skill line (that they already ground up on other character mind you). Would I prefer for this to be implemented in some other, non crown store way? Sure. But I don't see it as pay to win, since you can totally grind those skills up yourself and catch up fairly quickly.