Do you think we can negotiate with ZoS to make a user interface (see inside)...

Imza

1.Do you think we can negotiate with ZoS to make a user interface so that we don't need add-ons?
2. How could we start that negotiation?
3. What would be your minimum requirements for the user interface?

Turelus

I think at this point if we took add-ons away there would be more damage done than many other changes. I am against them and would love to see ESO without them and focus on better UI from ZOS, but they're too loved by the larger community to not be a killer nail if removed.

Uryel

Imza wrote: »

1.Do you think we can negotiate with ZoS

You can stop any question there. No, you can't, they won't listen.

Took them what, 5 years, to get a half-decent search in guild stores, and you STILL need addons for the functionnalities you need. Only, the new API makes it even harder. It's been a long-standing issue with TES games for ages : why pay people to develop something when you can let the community do it for free ?

Darkenarlol

addons are like salt and pepper -

it is better to be able to add them

up to your own taste rather than

to have a dish with standardized amounts

with no possibility to change 'em

daemonios

Darkenarlol wrote: »

addons are like salt and pepper -

it is better to be able to add them

up to your own taste rather than

to have a dish with standardized amounts

with no possibility to change 'em

Try eating food cooked with no salt and pepper and just adding them after the fact. It is not the same thing, I promise you.

Anyway, metaphors have limited use. Addons do provide a lot of variety, and some people have created amazingly useful addons. However, they also create a two-tiered system between PC/Mac and consoles, and they provide ZOS with an argument not to improve on their UI.

In other threads some people have brought up the number of mods for Skyrim. I would note that:

- The majority of Skyrim mods are graphics overhaul mods, which aren't compatible with an online multiplayer game where you need to ensure more or less stable performance;
- Many others are rule-changing mods, which aren't compatible with an online multiplayer game where you need the same ruleset to apply to all players;
- Skyrim mods are available on consoles, as well as on PC/Mac.

UI mods, which make up the majority of ESO's addons, are a minority in Skyrim's case. Also, Skyrim arguably offers a better default UI than ESO does, which is to be expected as it is a simpler, single-player game.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Imza wrote: »

1.Do you think we can negotiate with ZoS to make a user interface so that we don't need add-ons?
2. How could we start that negotiation?
3. What would be your minimum requirements for the user interface?

Currently with addons that I choose and configure carefully, my UI in ESO is exactly how I want it to be.
There's no way ZOS would make the exact same choices as I did, so I'd stick to addons no matter what.

Like AGS is still better than the revamped trader UI. In my opinion.

anitajoneb17_ESO

daemonios wrote: »

- Skyrim mods are available on consoles, as well as on PC/Mac.

Mod support on console for Skyrim came much, much later in the game's (extraordinary) lifetime. Back in 2011, and until 2015 or 2016, there were no mods for Skyrim on console, only PC. It was the same debate all over.

Aznarb

Actually I'm fine with the actual UI, I don't use mod for that.
I have only 7 mod and none of them are for UI or combat.

Sansoul

Imza wrote: »

1.Do you think we can negotiate with ZoS to make a user interface so that we don't need add-ons?
2. How could we start that negotiation?
3. What would be your minimum requirements for the user interface?

Please change your signature, it is offensive and a violation of the ToS. It's been reported.

Elsonso

Uryel wrote: »

It's been a long-standing issue with TES games for ages : why pay people to develop something when you can let the community do it for free ?

I am pretty sure that is the official slogan over at Bethesda Game Studios.

However, yes, ZOS should have a full-time person working on updating the UI and improving functionality across the board. Fill in all those missing parts that they left out when they originally developed the game. The stuff they labeled "minimal UI == Good" as justification for not doing it.

My top ones... not necessarily all add-on features...

Guild trader seller tools (MM/TTC functionality)
Improved mail interface (reply, save/archive, delivery in the same century as sent, let me delete spam mail without confirming, etc)
Mini map
Banking tools (stack guild bank automatically, move select items from inventory to bank in bulk)
Crafting tools (show me my writ on the crafting UI, allow me to easily make multiple, etc)

Darkenarlol

daemonios wrote: »

However, they also create a two-tiered system between PC/Mac and consoles, and they provide ZOS with an argument not to improve on their UI.

so now we have to turn off our PC addons on PC game

(what and how was ported to consoles doesn't matter -

i've bought a PC game)

because of some console plebs? nonsense


addons are essential and there is no way i would play

this game with it's ugly vanilla interface and lack of utility

zaria

Uryel wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

1.Do you think we can negotiate with ZoS

You can stop any question there. No, you can't, they won't listen.

Took them what, 5 years, to get a half-decent search in guild stores, and you STILL need addons for the functionnalities you need. Only, the new API makes it even harder. It's been a long-standing issue with TES games for ages : why pay people to develop something when you can let the community do it for free ?

This, and I don't see the reasoning anyway, mods in MMO predates WOW and is an positive with an few exceptions.
Yes having more internal would be nice however as this is software development it will cut directly into performance improvements and way new quests and dungeons does not.

daemonios

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

- Skyrim mods are available on consoles, as well as on PC/Mac.

Mod support on console for Skyrim came much, much later in the game's (extraordinary) lifetime. Back in 2011, and until 2015 or 2016, there were no mods for Skyrim on console, only PC. It was the same debate all over.

My point is that comparing ESO's addons to Skyrim's mods fails miserably, among other reasons, on account of the fact that Skyrim's are available to all players, while in ESO addons are not, nor are expected ever to be, available to console users.

I'm not debating Skyrim here. I'm interested in ESO and its attitude towards addons. I was against them at the start, caved in due to what I felt were gross insufficiencies of ESO's default UI, but would approve of measures to integrate the more consensual addons with the official UI. For instance:

- Better inventory categories, sorting and search (as provided by Advanced Filters, Inventory Insight, GearSetSort, etc.);
- An option to show map pins for Skyshards and Lorebooks (as provided by numerous addons), possibly limited to ones you've already discovered on at least one character;
- Better tracking of crafting researches (TraitBuddy, AI Research Grid);
- Some automation in crafting (Dolgubon's crafting addons);
- Better combat assessment (floating numbers and practice dummy dps values alone are not enough, there should be at least an option to display at least "current DPS", and in a perfect world the kind of combat review provided by Combat Metrics).

These should be available to all players. To that effect, addons that will not ever be available to consoles shouldn't be an argument against improving the game's UI.

daemonios

Darkenarlol wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

However, they also create a two-tiered system between PC/Mac and consoles, and they provide ZOS with an argument not to improve on their UI.

so now we have to turn off our PC addons on PC game

(what and how was ported to consoles doesn't matter -

i've bought a PC game)

because of some console plebs? nonsense


addons are essential and there is no way i would play

this game with it's ugly vanilla interface and lack of utility

Did I suggest eliminating addons at this point? I've been talking about integrating popular addons into the default UI so console users can benefit from them. I did say I was against addons at launch because of the wrong incentives they would create. Those incentives were in fact created. But I never said addons should be removed from PC/Mac.

BTW, "console plebs"? Really? Do you HAVE to go out of your way to find ways to feel superior to someone else?

Tyrobag

Different people want different things. If you lock out addons and add a ton of stuff to the default UI some people will be pissed that there isn't enough UI, while others will be pissed that there is too much. No addons is a loose-loose, while having addons is a win-win. If they could just bring addons to console there would be no issue.

FierceSam

Are there add-ons whose functionality ZOS should incorporate into the game? Absolutely.

It’s beyond stupid that there is no mini map and crafting should be a matter of choosing what you want to craft rather than an obtuse memory game to name but two.

Will ZOS do this? No chance. They’ve spent 5 years developing a guild store tool that looks and works worse than either of the add-ons it is trying to replace. They’ve spent a similar amount of time on a guild finder tool and then failed to anticipate the effects of its success. Their track record of delivering QoL improvements is shockingly poor.

Given this, then the answer to the OP is, no there is no point in ‘negotiating’ with ZOS. They won’t listen because we don’t matter.

anitajoneb17_ESO

daemonios wrote: »

These should be available to all players. To that effect, addons that will not ever be available to consoles shouldn't be an argument against improving the game's UI.

Well, that's arguable.
Not everything, even in the most popular addons, could nor should be included in the base game.

Multicraft ? Yes, this one should. It's a no-brainer to me. MiniMap, too.

Dolgubon's ? Already more of a problem. Not sure the original game design was meant to let us craft our writs and master writs at the speed of light, on an "industrial" scale. This is not only a matter of convenience to us, it impacts the availability of all kinds of materials - especially gold tempers. Same goes for writ vouchers, that were supposed to be something very special, and now everyone doing writs is basically swimming in writ vouchers - thanks/due to Dolgubon's. So yeah, that one is questionable. (Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome addon, and I couldn't play without it any more, BUT... I'm not sure it has its place in the base game).

Skyshards / Lorebooks ? Those were meant for us to explore and look and search. Looking around carefully to see if something is hidden somewhere isn't the same experience at all as going straight to a point on the map and compass. If that was incorporated as an option, would the hints and clues to find them still make sense ? Would anyone still bother really looking for them ? Same goes for Lost Treasure, Survey The World, etc.

I could go on and on.
I mean, in order to offer a gameplay and a feeling of progression, a game needs to be restrictive. It needs to provide obstacles and hurdles to overcome. Game design is purposedly restrictive.
Addons, on the contrary, are made to provide shortcuts and workarounds for these restrictions. Addons are "extensive" or "expansive" (not sure it's the correct word, english not being my mother tongue. I mean the opposite of "restrictive"). They bend the original design. It's okay when it's the player's choice as long as it doesn't create imbalance, BUT incorporating them in the base game is likely to create great design inconsistencies.

To carry on with the Skyrim analogy, some players had their Dovahkiin turned into Dark Vador, and why not, but having that option in the base game would feel totally ridiculous.
So just because addons are loved, extremely useful and widely used doesn't mean they would fit well into the vanilla game.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Tyrobag wrote: »

Different people want different things. If you lock out addons and add a ton of stuff to the default UI some people will be pissed that there isn't enough UI, while others will be pissed that there is too much. No addons is a loose-loose, while having addons is a win-win. If they could just bring addons to console there would be no issue.

Yup. I'd prefer addons to be on consoles, rather than addon functionalities being incorporated into the base game. At least, in most cases.

pod88kk

The OP should try playing on console & see how big the difference is.

srfrogg23

Imza wrote: »

1.Do you think we can negotiate with ZoS to make a user interface so that we don't need add-ons?
2. How could we start that negotiation?
3. What would be your minimum requirements for the user interface?

Zos has added UI features before as a result of player demand. It's possible they'll do it again. It would definitely be better than the devs just relying on 3rd party software to fill in those gaps with unofficial, unoptimized, and possibly malware infested programs.

The built-in UI already has substantial options for providing additional information. I really don't think it would be an issue to look at the more common addons and finding a way to incorporate the same features.

daemonios

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

These should be available to all players. To that effect, addons that will not ever be available to consoles shouldn't be an argument against improving the game's UI.

Well, that's arguable.
Not everything, even in the most popular addons, could nor should be included in the base game.

Multicraft ? Yes, this one should. It's a no-brainer to me. MiniMap, too.

Dolgubon's ? Already more of a problem. Not sure the original game design was meant to let us craft our writs and master writs at the speed of light, on an "industrial" scale. This is not only a matter of convenience to us, it impacts the availability of all kinds of materials - especially gold tempers. Same goes for writ vouchers, that were supposed to be something very special, and now everyone doing writs is basically swimming in writ vouchers - thanks/due to Dolgubon's. So yeah, that one is questionable. (Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome addon, and I couldn't play without it any more, BUT... I'm not sure it has its place in the base game).

Skyshards / Lorebooks ? Those were meant for us to explore and look and search. Looking around carefully to see if something is hidden somewhere isn't the same experience at all as going straight to a point on the map and compass. If that was incorporated as an option, would the hints and clues to find them still make sense ? Would anyone still bother really looking for them ? Same goes for Lost Treasure, Survey The World, etc.

I could go on and on.
I mean, in order to offer a gameplay and a feeling of progression, a game needs to be restrictive. It needs to provide obstacles and hurdles to overcome. Game design is purposedly restrictive.
Addons, on the contrary, are made to provide shortcuts and workarounds for these restrictions. Addons are "extensive" or "expansive" (not sure it's the correct word, english not being my mother tongue. I mean the opposite of "restrictive"). They bend the original design. It's okay when it's the player's choice as long as it doesn't create imbalance, BUT incorporating them in the base game is likely to create great design inconsistencies.

To carry on with the Skyrim analogy, some players had their Dovahkiin turned into Dark Vador, and why not, but having that option in the base game would feel totally ridiculous.
So just because addons are loved, extremely useful and widely used doesn't mean they would fit well into the vanilla game.

Of course everyone will suggest different addons. I fully agree with you on Dolgubon's, I just can't justify to myself not using them since the default UI doesn't even let me see the items I need to craft from inside the crafting window. This is bad enough in the case of normal writs (check quest, open crafting window, select item type and tier for the first item, forget what the others were, close crafting window, check quest...) but downright annoying when crafting purple/gold master writ items for which you need to get the item type, level, rarity, style and trait correct.

In the case of Skyshards/Lorebooks, I also agree that the game encourages exploration. I have all possible skyshards except Elsweyr on my main, and that's because I chose to level two new necros who are doing the zone before my main. But I also recognize that after leveling 10 characters and knowing the skyshard and book locations almost by heart, leveling a new one becomes a lot more boring. Allowing people to choose to display already discovered skyshards/books on their new characters might even have prevented something I think is worse, which is selling the skill points directly in the Clown Store.

I think we would need to be flexible about this and acknowledge that not everyone plays the same way. If addons as an option are a good thing, then bringing some of those options to the UI, which would be available to every player and not just PC/Mac players, would also be a good thing.

Elsonso

daemonios wrote: »

Of course everyone will suggest different addons. I fully agree with you on Dolgubon's, I just can't justify to myself not using them since the default UI doesn't even let me see the items I need to craft from inside the crafting window. This is bad enough in the case of normal writs (check quest, open crafting window, select item type and tier for the first item, forget what the others were, close crafting window, check quest...) but downright annoying when crafting purple/gold master writ items for which you need to get the item type, level, rarity, style and trait correct.

Before certain addons (not the one you mention), I had to write down what I needed to craft for my writs on a piece of paper so that I could refer to it in the crafting UI. If this is not a sign that something fundamental went wrong with the game's UI design, then I don't know what is.

People ask me why I stopped playing seriously on PS4, and this sort of thing usually gets included in the answer. I know a lot of people like playing on consoles, but my opinion, after playing on PS4, is that this game should have never been released on consoles.

Odovacar

anitajoneb17_ESO

@Odovacar : where's the 4K version of that meme... ? ;-) It feels so small :-)

Odovacar

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Odovacar : where's the 4K version of that meme... ? ;-) It feels so small :-)

bahaha

Donny_Vito

Darkenarlol wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

However, they also create a two-tiered system between PC/Mac and consoles, and they provide ZOS with an argument not to improve on their UI.

so now we have to turn off our PC addons on PC game

(what and how was ported to consoles doesn't matter -

i've bought a PC game)

because of some console plebs? nonsense


addons are essential and there is no way i would play

this game with it's ugly vanilla interface and lack of utility

Lol, the arrogance is strong with this one! Please get rid of addons so we can get rid of this guy.

MrGarlic

pod88kk wrote: »

The OP should try playing on console & see how big the difference is.

Isn't it just like the PC version without add-ons but with controller support?

Imza

As a possible option that would benefit ZoS:


We could perhaps have the "add-ons" that are integrated into the user interface be added to the crown store and therefore you could choose to have them or not

EDIT:

If they did this with one add-on, like perhaps skyshard locations (skyshards are in the crown store so precedence already set)
This would enable ZoS to find out if this is what ppl want.....

idk

Zos had developed what is more of a typical UI for an MMORPG such as this one. We saw it in testing well before this game went live.

Zos tried to claim that it was only for testing purposes which does not hold water. They said they always intended for us to get our information from the environment which seemed odd since Zos has never been able to get the visual effects from skills/buffs/debuffs to animate correctly for that to work as they tried to claim.

That claim does not hold water because you would want to test things out as you intend for the game to be played. The real reason Zos abandoned it is some TES fanboys were calling out for a UI similar to what we had in the single player games.

At this point I doubt Zos wants to get into choosing what aspects of addons are included in a UI or not and probably does not want to spend the money to build out a UI again.

Imza

The only reason ZoS is ever going to even consider making any major changes like what this thread is about is if it makes money/profit for them....

I'm trying to find a way to incentivize them...

Edit for structure.

Casul

I would love a mini map. Played on PC for a month and that was the nicest thing.