Why is magden so hated in competitive ?

danara

Hi everyone,

Just a naïve question from a newbie, why is magden dps so hated competitive high level content (i mean trials, dont get me wrong, i know that for some of us, end game means other things )

Si i get it, you dont have any buff unique to your class for the group... But come on...if you have 1 magden is a group, Will it change the proc uptime of these unique buff ?

I know the dps is also low on a parse when compared to other class, but in trials, with combat prayer and every thing else, is it so low ?

I am not trying to ask for a buff, i Just want to understand, i am playing healer for 5 years now and i want to try something New, but nobody play this class in my guild, and when i ask to someone i Just get the answer "dont want to play with an other class ?"

The things is that i like hard things to play, and i know that that the magden rotation is one of the toughest rotation in the game

Thanks you everyone !

LeHarrt91

Basically, yes its due to low dps and it doesnt bring anything that another class cant do better.
With the new Raid Dummy it evens out the classes with buffs provided in raids and MagDens are still very low on the list.

danara

On the New dummy i think that the différence between the Best magicka dps and magden is something like 6k

Acompetitive fight lasts 5 minutes in general (and i am kind here 😂, it depends which fight)

So 5 * 60 * 6k = 1 800k

So you have to deal 1800k damage with 8 guys, it s what 4/5 secondes ?

Do you think that 5 secondes is so relevant ?

LeHarrt91

To those who want to get the highest score possible it is. Which is why Magdens have such a bad rep in endgame pve.
I only use my MagDen when i do trials, but thats because i like the class in general.

Derra

danara wrote: »

On the New dummy i think that the différence between the Best magicka dps and magden is something like 6k

Acompetitive fight lasts 5 minutes in general (and i am kind here 😂, it depends which fight)

So 5 * 60 * 6k = 1 800k

So you have to deal 1800k damage with 8 guys, it s what 4/5 secondes ?

Do you think that 5 secondes is so relevant ?

If you have 4 or 5 boss encounters it can be up to 20-30s and that´s relevant if you´re going for scores.

SaintSubwayy

well you already listed all the reasons why magden dps isnt competitive.

no unique buffs (thoughness yes, but also possible as warden healer, actually even better on a healer)
no unique debuffs
low DPS compared to magicka DPS
even bigger difference compared to stamina DPS

only thing wardens are used for are healers for minor thoughness (10% more max HP) ofc the uniique snyergy for alkosh and occasionally as Tanks

why should you make the content harder for your group by dealing less dmg = longer fights, -> more sustain problems, more time to make mistakes?

still a very good magden can outdps bad DD's on other classes, but on equal skilllevels its just not a great idea to bring a magden.

another problem is, that ZOS cant simply buff magden, since they are doing pretty well in PVP (kinda the same issue magDK has)

wishlist14

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

To those who want to get the highest score possible it is. Which is why Magdens have such a bad rep in endgame pve.
I only use my MagDen when i do trials, but thats because i like the class in general.

Wait, you say you only use magden in trials? Well aren't trials endgame? Did i mistead your comment? Just need you to please explain ty.

danara

@wishlist14

By that i mean that to me, trials are endgame, i dont want to go in the debate "i am a solo pve player and trial are not endgame but vMA is" or guys from pvp that are t doing trials, i Just wanted to clarify the context, my context

MartiniDaniels

Because humans are monkeys and copycats. Despite 95% of vet trial groups is notably far from Hodor's level of performance and scores, they all knew what class, sets and race are BiS and want it in their group no matter of real performance of particular player. And even if you are best dps in trial due to your personal skill, trial leader may ask why you are not using sorcerer instead of warden, cause your results will be even higher.
This is some sort of perception conflict between people who came to ESO from previous TES games and so prefer "play the way you want" motto and "WOW refugees" who are seasoned by years of min-maxing for best results without caring for personal wishes.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

another problem is, that ZOS cant simply buff magden, since they are doing pretty well in PVP (kinda the same issue magDK has)

Problem is the with snare nerfs and new RAT, magden is not so great in PVP anymore. Magsorc way better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpHD2aVEj6A

You may call it a tin-foil hat theory, but magsorc is most popular class not only between devs but for players too, so now it is best class for everything and you may see that forums are relatively quiet about it..

Iskiab

What martini said, you can also add that there’s no combat parser in the game.

It’s about human psychology. If the raid fails the raid leader will look for reasons why. A raid leader can’t see people’s dps or gear but they can see class, so even if a player was top dps in the raid they’d likely be blamed if they played a warden, because ‘magwardens aren’t good dps’.

Hopefully ESO logs changes this. Anyone who’s ever raided in their life knows mechanics has a huge effect on dps. Typically different mechanics in a raid can help or hurt a class, Wardens might be the best dps for certain fights and no one knows it yet.

mobicera

In all honesty if you're guild isn't in the 1% and can't compete for top scores yet demands you dps on a specific class or just refuses to take a magden or whatever maybe find a better guild...
As long as you are hitting the dps requirements put forth it should not matter what class you do it on.

ATomiX96

You literally explained it yourself, no group utility and lower dps than alternatives which provide group utility at the same time.

danara wrote: »

I know the dps is also low on a parse when compared to other class, but in trials, with combat prayer and every thing else, is it so low ?

In trials with low combat prayer, you put on slimecraw and still outparse every magwarden which can run a damage set like zaan, valkyn and others.

Also as many mentioned if youre in the top 1% which are doing scorehunting you will only play meta and nothing else, if youre progressing, people also want you to do your best, therefore they dont really want to see magwarden because even on a middle level of play every other class absolutely *** on magwarden dps-wise.

Onefrkncrzypope

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Because humans are monkeys and copycats. Despite 95% of vet trial groups is notably far from Hodor's level of performance and scores, they all knew what class, sets and race are BiS and want it in their group no matter of real performance of particular player. And even if you are best dps in trial due to your personal skill, trial leader may ask why you are not using sorcerer instead of warden, cause your results will be even higher.
This is some sort of perception conflict between people who came to ESO from previous TES games and so prefer "play the way you want" motto and "WOW refugees" who are seasoned by years of min-maxing for best results without caring for personal wishes.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

another problem is, that ZOS cant simply buff magden, since they are doing pretty well in PVP (kinda the same issue magDK has)

Problem is the with snare nerfs and new RAT, magden is not so great in PVP anymore. Magsorc way better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpHD2aVEj6A

You may call it a tin-foil hat theory, but magsorc is most popular class not only between devs but for players too, so now it is best class for everything and you may see that forums are relatively quiet about it..

Last ama had four devs not running sorcs(If I remember correctly). Wasn't it stamdens and stamplar(kek).

The problem with magdens, is their dynamic rotation for very low results. Same with blades. It really confuses me that a nearly static stamcro rotation can out parse the three truely dynamic classes(mdk, magblade, and magwarden) by upwards of 15k+ at the top end. Heck Liko did a dynamic two pet build that outparsed all the other Stam classes. This and with a non cheese deadric mine /ha single pet build hit 95k.

PS less dynamic = more consistent trial parses.

MooseKnuckles88

It really depends on the content. Magdens are NOT in the driver's seat dps wise currently, in addition to that, they do not offer a lot of group utility. Most Magdens are usually using Master Architect in trials to help boost group dps. What can be and should be restated again is that if you're not doing or plan on doing vet score trial runs then Magdens can do anything else in the game.

I main on a dps Magden, and I've done plenty of vet trials and vet HM DLC achievement runs on it. I can also pull over 50k dps on the regular skeleton dummies with my Magden, and I'm well aware that isn't brag worthy, but it's not like Magdens can't pull decent dps either. It comes down to putting in the time to learn your class, your rotation, and making all the necessary adjustments to your gear and it will pay off. Just know that you're always gonna be a black sheep where ever you go on one.

LeHarrt91

wishlist14 wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

To those who want to get the highest score possible it is. Which is why Magdens have such a bad rep in endgame pve.
I only use my MagDen when i do trials, but thats because i like the class in general.

Wait, you say you only use magden in trials? Well aren't trials endgame? Did i mistead your comment? Just need you to please explain ty.

I dont run for scores or anything, when I do trials I use my MagDen because I want to.

I may not partake in Elite Endgame PVE but I know the reasoning as to why those who do dont use MagDen as dps.