[Discussion] Can we as a community stop dismissing others' perspectives?

Elusiin

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

It's not that I'm asking you to respect their opinion, but rather that you should respect each other. And if you disagree, just agree to disagree. Do this instead of saying others are "whining" or "stupid" just because they disagree with you.

Vandril

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

You may not agree with someone's perspective, but you could at least respect their right to have an opinion.

..is what the OP said. It is slightly different from the general interpretation going on here. Slightly...

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

With that in mind, the OP's request was that when these perspectives are expressed, if you can add something to it, positive or negative; you could at least try to do it with some respect towards the person expressing their perspective.

Especially when it takes place in this sort of arena, which is specifically designed for that purpose.

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

It's not that I'm asking you to respect their opinion, but rather that you should respect each other. And if you disagree, just agree to disagree. Do this instead of saying others are "whining" or "stupid" just because they disagree with you.

I'm aware. I enjoy philosophy, though, and was drawn to reply specifically to that general misinterpretation going on in this thread. I guess I should have said that my earlier post was meant to be slightly off topic. It's not entirely off topic, though, since most perspectives are opinions.

But on the topic of the OP, I've long held the...well...opinion that we should accept that others may not experience things in-game the same way we do. Like the whole PvE vs. PvP debate that's prevalent in MMOs everywhere; it's a pretty stupid divide, as they're both real parts of the game that some people do and others do not enjoy. People enjoy different things and view things differently, and we really shouldn't disparage that.

So on that point I certainly agree.

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

I don't fully understand when that stated perspective crosses some boundary and becomes 'an opinion'.

It's actually not as complicated as people tend to make it out to be. I'm not trying to patronize you; I just want to be thorough in my explanation.

When you make a statement - when you say anything, and it isn't a question - it is either a fact or an opinion. If it can be quantifiably proven or disproven, it is a fact. Facts can be correct or incorrect. If it cannot be quantifiably proven or disproven, then it is an opinion. Opinions can neither be factually correct nor factually incorrect.

True Fact: [while holding a ball] "This is a ball."
False Fact: [while holding a ball] "This is a box."

Opinion: [while holding a ball] "This ball is fun to play with."
Opinion: [while holding a ball] "This ball is no fun at all."

Things get a little more confusing when you have conflicting evidence for a fact. Let's use the effect of dietary fat on weight gain as an example. There are studies that support that "you can gain weight by consuming fat", but there are also studies that claim the exact opposite, that "consuming fat has no effect on weight gain". So you end up with the following fact:

Fact: "Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain."

However, because there is evidence both supporting and refuting this fact, it is impossible to quantifiably prove or disprove it with the information currently available. Since the statement could be proven or disproven if we had more information, we know it is a fact; we simply lack the information currently to say whether it's true or false.

This results in a very odd circumstance that causes many to be confused about how facts and opinions work. Because we can't currently prove or disprove this fact, whether the fact is true or false becomes an opinion. This circumstance allows you to have an opinion on the validity of a fact. It does not, however, make the fact in question an opinion.

Opinion: "The fact that Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain is true."
Opinion: "The fact that Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain is false."

So, to recap, statements can be one of the following: true fact, false fact, ambiguous fact, opinion on the validity of an ambiguous fact, and pure opinion.

Perspectives are still statements, and thus still fall into this categorization scheme. Any perspective that is not a fact is an opinion.

Elusiin

Vandril wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

You may not agree with someone's perspective, but you could at least respect their right to have an opinion.

..is what the OP said. It is slightly different from the general interpretation going on here. Slightly...

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

With that in mind, the OP's request was that when these perspectives are expressed, if you can add something to it, positive or negative; you could at least try to do it with some respect towards the person expressing their perspective.

Especially when it takes place in this sort of arena, which is specifically designed for that purpose.

I'm aware. I enjoy philosophy, though, and was drawn to reply specifically to that general misinterpretation going on in this thread. I guess I should have said that my earlier post was meant to be slightly off topic. It's not entirely off topic, though, since most perspectives are opinions.

But on the topic of the OP, I've long held the...well...opinion that we should accept that others may not experience things in-game the same way we do. Like the whole PvE vs. PvP debate that's prevalent in MMOs everywhere; it's a pretty stupid divide, as they're both real parts of the game that some people do and others do not enjoy. People enjoy different things, and we really shouldn't disparage that.

So on that point I certainly agree.

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

I don't fully understand when that stated perspective crosses some boundary and becomes 'an opinion'.

It's actually not as complicated as people tend to make it out to be. I'm not trying to patronize you; I just want to be thorough in my explanation.

When you make a statement - when you say anything, and it isn't a question - it is either a fact or an opinion. If it can be quantifiably proven or disproven, it is a fact. Facts can be correct or incorrect. If it cannot be quantifiably proven or disproven, then it is an opinion. Opinions can neither be factually correct or factually incorrect.

True Fact: [while holding a ball] "This is a ball."
False Fact: [while holding a ball] "This is a box."

Opinion: [while holding a ball] "This ball is fun to play with."
Opinion: [while holding a ball] "This ball is no fun at all."

Things get a little more confusing when you have conflicting evidence for a fact. Let's use the effect of dietary fat on weight gain as an example. There are studies that support that "you can gain weight by consuming fat", but there are also studies that claim the exact opposite, that "consuming fat has no effect on weight gain". So you end up with the following fact:

Fact: "Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain."

However, because there is evidence both supporting and refuting this fact, it is impossible to quantifiably prove or disprove it with the information currently available. We know that it's a fact as it is either true or false, but we are unable to determine which it is. This results in a very odd circumstance that causes many to be confused about how facts and opinions work. Because we can't prove or disprove this fact, whether the fact is true or false becomes an opinion. This circumstance allows you to have an opinion on the validity of a fact. It does not, however, make the fact in question an opinion.

Opinion: "The statement that Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain is true."
Opinion: "The statement that Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain is false."

So, to recap, statements can be one of the following: true fact, false fact, ambiguous fact, opinion on the validity of a fact, and pure opinion.

Perspectives are still statements, and thus still fall into this categorization scheme. Any perspective that is not a fact is an opinion.

Hey I agree with this, and thank you for clearly defining fact and opinion for everyone. Though when it comes to consumption of fats, the laws of thermodynamics, specifically conservation of energy can be applied: if you eat less calories than you use, you're gonna lose weight, regardless of fat/lipid, protein, and carbohydrate consumption. (Sorry I'm a bit of a science nerd, I had to.)

Imza

I give you an awesome for the explanation - and for taking the time to make said explanation!

Glurin

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

You may not agree with someone's perspective, but you could at least respect their right to have an opinion.

..is what the OP said. It is slightly different from the general interpretation going on here. Slightly...

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

With that in mind, the OP's request was that when these perspectives are expressed, if you can add something to it, positive or negative; you could at least try to do it with some respect towards the person expressing their perspective.

Especially when it takes place in this sort of arena, which is specifically designed for that purpose.

I'm aware. I enjoy philosophy, though, and was drawn to reply specifically to that general misinterpretation going on in this thread. I guess I should have said that my earlier post was meant to be slightly off topic. It's not entirely off topic, though, since most perspectives are opinions.

But on the topic of the OP, I've long held the...well...opinion that we should accept that others may not experience things in-game the same way we do. Like the whole PvE vs. PvP debate that's prevalent in MMOs everywhere; it's a pretty stupid divide, as they're both real parts of the game that some people do and others do not enjoy. People enjoy different things, and we really shouldn't disparage that.

So on that point I certainly agree.

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

I don't fully understand when that stated perspective crosses some boundary and becomes 'an opinion'.

It's actually not as complicated as people tend to make it out to be. I'm not trying to patronize you; I just want to be thorough in my explanation.

When you make a statement - when you say anything, and it isn't a question - it is either a fact or an opinion. If it can be quantifiably proven or disproven, it is a fact. Facts can be correct or incorrect. If it cannot be quantifiably proven or disproven, then it is an opinion. Opinions can neither be factually correct or factually incorrect.

True Fact: [while holding a ball] "This is a ball."
False Fact: [while holding a ball] "This is a box."

Opinion: [while holding a ball] "This ball is fun to play with."
Opinion: [while holding a ball] "This ball is no fun at all."

Things get a little more confusing when you have conflicting evidence for a fact. Let's use the effect of dietary fat on weight gain as an example. There are studies that support that "you can gain weight by consuming fat", but there are also studies that claim the exact opposite, that "consuming fat has no effect on weight gain". So you end up with the following fact:

Fact: "Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain."

However, because there is evidence both supporting and refuting this fact, it is impossible to quantifiably prove or disprove it with the information currently available. We know that it's a fact as it is either true or false, but we are unable to determine which it is. This results in a very odd circumstance that causes many to be confused about how facts and opinions work. Because we can't prove or disprove this fact, whether the fact is true or false becomes an opinion. This circumstance allows you to have an opinion on the validity of a fact. It does not, however, make the fact in question an opinion.

Opinion: "The statement that Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain is true."
Opinion: "The statement that Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain is false."

So, to recap, statements can be one of the following: true fact, false fact, ambiguous fact, opinion on the validity of a fact, and pure opinion.

Perspectives are still statements, and thus still fall into this categorization scheme. Any perspective that is not a fact is an opinion.

Hey I agree with this, and thank you for clearly defining fact and opinion for everyone. Though when it comes to consumption of fats, the laws of thermodynamics, specifically conservation of energy can be applied: if you eat less calories than you use, you're gonna lose weight, regardless of fat/lipid, protein, and carbohydrate consumption. (Sorry I'm a bit of a science nerd, I had to.)

Pfft. It's 2019. We're all postmodernists now, so get with the program. We all know silly things like "facts" and "logic" and "science" don't actually mean anything. What's important is that everyone is always right except for anyone who disagrees. If you feel like eating five large cheese pizzas every day makes you thinner, then it makes you thinner and that's all there is to it. Anyone who says otherwise is simply ignorant.

Vandril

Glurin wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

You may not agree with someone's perspective, but you could at least respect their right to have an opinion.

..is what the OP said. It is slightly different from the general interpretation going on here. Slightly...

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

With that in mind, the OP's request was that when these perspectives are expressed, if you can add something to it, positive or negative; you could at least try to do it with some respect towards the person expressing their perspective.

Especially when it takes place in this sort of arena, which is specifically designed for that purpose.

I'm aware. I enjoy philosophy, though, and was drawn to reply specifically to that general misinterpretation going on in this thread. I guess I should have said that my earlier post was meant to be slightly off topic. It's not entirely off topic, though, since most perspectives are opinions.

But on the topic of the OP, I've long held the...well...opinion that we should accept that others may not experience things in-game the same way we do. Like the whole PvE vs. PvP debate that's prevalent in MMOs everywhere; it's a pretty stupid divide, as they're both real parts of the game that some people do and others do not enjoy. People enjoy different things, and we really shouldn't disparage that.

So on that point I certainly agree.

Androconium wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

"I'm entitled to my opinion" is often a sort of logical fallacy. While there may be times you can claim this without it being a logical fallacy, this is very rarely the case, especially on the internet.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

I love the above quote. Even if it's not entirely correct - people are entitled to be ignorant if they so wish - it does emphasize that any opinion on facts can be factually wrong. Just because it is an opinion does not preclude it from being incorrect.

Chadak may have come across as harsh depending on the tone you read his above post in, but what he said was very much correct. People all too often confuse the right to hold an opinion as the right to have their opinion respected.

Reality check: you can have whatever opinion you want, but no one is under any obligation to respect it in the least.

That said, people really aught to respect reasonable opinions. All too often, disagreements of opinion turn into slobbering at each other in rage as opposed to, I dunno, rational discourse. Again, especially on the internet.

I don't fully understand when that stated perspective crosses some boundary and becomes 'an opinion'.

It's actually not as complicated as people tend to make it out to be. I'm not trying to patronize you; I just want to be thorough in my explanation.

When you make a statement - when you say anything, and it isn't a question - it is either a fact or an opinion. If it can be quantifiably proven or disproven, it is a fact. Facts can be correct or incorrect. If it cannot be quantifiably proven or disproven, then it is an opinion. Opinions can neither be factually correct or factually incorrect.

True Fact: [while holding a ball] "This is a ball."
False Fact: [while holding a ball] "This is a box."

Opinion: [while holding a ball] "This ball is fun to play with."
Opinion: [while holding a ball] "This ball is no fun at all."

Things get a little more confusing when you have conflicting evidence for a fact. Let's use the effect of dietary fat on weight gain as an example. There are studies that support that "you can gain weight by consuming fat", but there are also studies that claim the exact opposite, that "consuming fat has no effect on weight gain". So you end up with the following fact:

Fact: "Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain."

However, because there is evidence both supporting and refuting this fact, it is impossible to quantifiably prove or disprove it with the information currently available. We know that it's a fact as it is either true or false, but we are unable to determine which it is. This results in a very odd circumstance that causes many to be confused about how facts and opinions work. Because we can't prove or disprove this fact, whether the fact is true or false becomes an opinion. This circumstance allows you to have an opinion on the validity of a fact. It does not, however, make the fact in question an opinion.

Opinion: "The statement that Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain is true."
Opinion: "The statement that Dietary fat consumption causes weight gain is false."

So, to recap, statements can be one of the following: true fact, false fact, ambiguous fact, opinion on the validity of a fact, and pure opinion.

Perspectives are still statements, and thus still fall into this categorization scheme. Any perspective that is not a fact is an opinion.

Hey I agree with this, and thank you for clearly defining fact and opinion for everyone. Though when it comes to consumption of fats, the laws of thermodynamics, specifically conservation of energy can be applied: if you eat less calories than you use, you're gonna lose weight, regardless of fat/lipid, protein, and carbohydrate consumption. (Sorry I'm a bit of a science nerd, I had to.)

Pfft. It's 2019. We're all postmodernists now, so get with the program. We all know silly things like "facts" and "logic" and "science" don't actually mean anything. What's important is that everyone is always right except for anyone who disagrees. If you feel like eating five large cheese pizzas every day makes you thinner, then it makes you thinner and that's all there is to it. Anyone who says otherwise is simply ignorant.

Is that a fact?

idk

Chadak wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

As the title says. I see a lot of people saying things like what a stupid thread, stop crying, stop whining, and etc. These chapter updates being a lot of changes, people need time to adjust and process (even if that is in the form of a rant on the forums), and honestly the development team is looking for feedback from the playerbase. These types of threads and discussions are healthy. You may not agree with someone's perspective, but you could at least respect their right to have an opinion. But maybe I'm wrong, what do you guys think?

Opinions are not of equal value. Some are ridiculous, foolish and make everyone that much dumber for having been exposed to them. Failure to ridicule the ridiculous encourages the ridiculous and gives ridiculous people the tragically mistaken impression that their ridiculous opinions are worth as much as everyone else's no matter what.

A well thought out opinion expressed intelligently deserves credit for at least the effort involved. An emotionally vomitous or otherwise unhinged rant is not deserving of much attention or respect.

TL;DR : stupid people say stupid things and they don't deserve respect for talking.

When you wrote your opinion did you take a moment to read it?

Back to OP. You are correct. People disagree with my comments in a thread, but I give a reason for my comments. I strive to avoid comments that bash the person or try to belittle them because that says more about me and nothing about them.

sillydeb

I think this community is nice most of the time. I learned so much from reading here and seeing what people have to say as I played the game almost always alone and wanted to learn more.

InvictusApollo

Chadak wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

As the title says. I see a lot of people saying things like what a stupid thread, stop crying, stop whining, and etc. These chapter updates being a lot of changes, people need time to adjust and process (even if that is in the form of a rant on the forums), and honestly the development team is looking for feedback from the playerbase. These types of threads and discussions are healthy. You may not agree with someone's perspective, but you could at least respect their right to have an opinion. But maybe I'm wrong, what do you guys think?

Opinions are not of equal value. Some are ridiculous, foolish and make everyone that much dumber for having been exposed to them. Failure to ridicule the ridiculous encourages the ridiculous and gives ridiculous people the tragically mistaken impression that their ridiculous opinions are worth as much as everyone else's no matter what.

A well thought out opinion expressed intelligently deserves credit for at least the effort involved. An emotionally vomitous or otherwise unhinged rant is not deserving of much attention or respect.

TL;DR : stupid people say stupid things and they don't deserve respect for talking.

Hitting the "Agree" button wasn't enough for me when I saw your post. You have told the truth that most politically correct or full of themselves people do not accept.

Not all opinions are equal just like not all humans are equal. Some people have higher mental capacity and wider knowledge/experience which make them produce much more valuable opinions. That is the way it is and allways has been. However since people with lower IQ are incapable of understanding mental and cognitive superiority of people with higher IQ and the feeling of inferiority is emotionally painfull, our society has corrupted the idea of equality. It was supposed to be an equality of rights where everyone gets judged with the same set of rules. Instead mentally average people have come to a conclusion that eqality means that everyone is worth the same. Which is ridiculous in itself as it is easily rebutted just by appraising worth to the society of two extreme examples.

We as a society have obligation to grow and become better. We do it through creating and spreading new ideas. However not all ideas are equal as the results of their implementation differs. It is imperative to evaluate possible outcomes of implementing those ideas and to promote or condemn ideas and opinions. Should we fail to do so, we might find ourselves in a world where destructive ideas spread like wildfire and affect our lives in despicable manners.

In a game this would result in decrease of enjoyment provided by a game. However in real world this could mean the decrease of life standard or even loss of natural human rights.

Minyassa

I can't really understand why people have to shoot down other people's ideas for things that wouldn't negatively affect them, myself. But I can understand why people would shoot down ideas that might negatively affect them, and I think that the fear of that might be what sparks at least *those* dismissals. There is a common idea that nerfs come from player complaints, for instance. I myself cannot say whether they do or not. I don't have an inside line to the devs, I don't know if they make their adjustments based on their own play or if they just get handed notes that say so many people have complained about x thing. But there are people in the forum who firmly believe it is one thing or the other, and the ones who think that things get nerfed because players complain would understandably be alarmed when someone starts suggesting a change that might result in another upsetting nerf.

Androconium

FACT
noun: fact; plural noun: facts

a thing that is known or proved to be true.

OPINION
noun: opinion; plural noun: opinions

a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.


These are statements that I'm making after some mild research.
You have the right to form your own opinion and a lesser right to wave it in front of everyone. At least, that's what I think.

VaranisArano

Respectfully pointing out the problems with an argument in great detail is
A. Much less likely to result in moderator action
B. Much more likely to result in the Devs thinking you know what you are talking about compared to the other guy

Never underestimate the power of consistent, well-stated arguments in favor of a game change - thats more or less why we got Cyrodiil faction locks back.

Its very important to disagree with opinions in a logical, coherent manner if you actually want to have an impact on the silent audience od the developers. It probably won't convince the OP of whatever thread, but hey, the insults and "L2Play" probably werent convincing either, so its worth a shot.

Hallothiel

I do try very hard to remember to respect other people & their opinions but sometimes it is near to impossible when they come out with absolute guff based on nonsense.

(I live in a country where its future is being decided by opportunistic manipulators who have skewed discussions on the issue away from facts & reality to being based on opinions & feelings and it’s a fecking disaster so bit touchy on this!)

I do utterly appreciate a well thought out decent post, even if it is making a point i disagree with. But if someone is just whinging or just thinking about themselves & what they want, then i am within my rights to express my opinion about their opinion. As politely as i can, of course.

Heelie

I think all feedback is relevant to a point, unless it's just trolling for the sake of trolling. But when it comes to feedback in from form of nerfs, buffs, and changes. The feedback from a crying "insert class main" that has barely completed any content in the game. Crying over perceived nerfs that they do not understand, holds no weight compared to an objective post based purely on facts, data and some for first hand experience. Both post might hold some relevance, but by no means equal.

barney2525

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

No.

drat. you beat me to it


8)

Nimrhys

That’s general manners but people on the internet tend to forgo manners. It’s not just ESO, it’s every game community because that’s just people for you. Just learn to ignore those people, not worth your time or effort.

WuffyCerulei

I respect the opinions of other people, but I won’t defend dumb opinions or let go on with “buff/nerf thing that doesn’t need buffing or nerfing”. Or people demanding rollbacks to a reworks that were heavily needed (the old old sorc dps meta, old 20 second shields, proc meta, and the newly-yeeted nightblade dps meta). Yes, these things probably made your life easy, especially during the long-lasting Nightblade meta for dps. But one class dominating pvp and both stam and mag dps in pve had to change.

Billdor

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

As the title says. I see a lot of people saying things like what a stupid thread, stop crying, stop whining, and etc. These chapter updates being a lot of changes, people need time to adjust and process (even if that is in the form of a rant on the forums), and honestly the development team is looking for feedback from the playerbase. These types of threads and discussions are healthy. You may not agree with someone's perspective, but you could at least respect their right to have an opinion. But maybe I'm wrong, what do you guys think?

I respect some opinions but as on this general forum and the Reddit, there are so many brainless people creating useless discussions (like this one for example).

albesca

VaranisArano wrote: »

Respectfully pointing out the problems with an argument in great detail is
A. Much less likely to result in moderator action
B. Much more likely to result in the Devs thinking you know what you are talking about compared to the other guy

Never underestimate the power of consistent, well-stated arguments in favor of a game change - thats more or less why we got Cyrodiil faction locks back.

Its very important to disagree with opinions in a logical, coherent manner if you actually want to have an impact on the silent audience od the developers. It probably won't convince the OP of whatever thread, but hey, the insults and "L2Play" probably werent convincing either, so its worth a shot.

I beg to differ

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed a handful of comments that were nonconstructive and baiting in nature. This is a friendly reminder to stay on topic when posting. Comments need to remain civil and free of personal insults.

RexyCat

Chadak wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

homura wrote: »

Dude go sit down,you sound so salty

And here's a stupid, saying stupid things so soon.

Couldn't wait to prove me right, could ya.

Please be considerate of what you say, blatantly throwing out insults at people with whom you disagree is no way to carry out a discussion. This only serves to start conflict and arguments.

Ahh, right. We're pretending to be sophisticated monkeys today.

Right then. I'll put on my pretending-to-care-deeply face and tell you whatever it is you want to hear.

And you'll love me for it.

As far as I have read all your response in this thread you seem to just only want to provoke people. You don't even try to put yourself in other peoples shoes to at least see if there are any substance in what they are writing here in thread about how people discuss on ESO forum.


@Androconium

The expression "World" is a common perspective in both within philosophy, sociology and psychology to describe the point of view from an individual stand point to how this person experience its own being or existence from its own position and the surrounding. That surrounding do also include other beings like people and animals among other. This kind of terminology do also fit with posters intention. "Country" would not fit to replace "World" as in this usage to point out a change in World view (meaning that there is something in how we as human being see our world and act on it).

EDIT:

From reading about facts vs opinion and the way it is described I just to add that it is even within philosophy not as clear distinction as you make it sound.

The way distinction between option and fact havebeen defined seem to be a very material version, much in the a Positivist (after Logical Positivism/Empircism) or Neoempiricism tradition where focus on verification and methods instead of objects and statements material existense.

In Continental Philosophy after Michel Foucault and also from Americans such as Tomas Kuhn the characteristics of "facts" is that have a foundation in how social groups use it and how they create a certain logic (or culture) where "facts" are part of this structure (Kuhn: Paradigme or Foucault: Discourse). "Fact" is often a type of assumptions that very rarely are being questioned and when they are, it will also be in connection to how this structure change (paradigm or Discourse). The problem here is that "opinion" is often only being used to make it sound like it is of no value or lesser value as it is based on subjective experience rather then a "fact" (which in both Kuhn and Foucaults view is subjective experienced that is transformed into something we rarely question).

As for ESO it means that statements that people call "opinion" is often disregarded on false assumption that facts is what should be provided as those are by themselves originally also subjective experience. Another problem in this discussion is what intention is behind those expression of "opinion"?

How do we as community communicate in a way that both bring forward our intention as each of us make in form of an "opinion" (in a written form with all the limitation that is from writing on a forum in English) and how much control to we (each individual) have that our words in text is being interpred the way we intended?

Is"likes" in the form of "Insightful", "Agree" or "Awesome" really good tools for communication or even badges for posting in a certain way? Do those forum tools actually control in which direction a certain statement will take form and what kind of intention and interpretation that is being made on ESO forum?

Do those tools encourage negative response that take the direction of "trolling" and how do one make statements on forum that will not take another direction that OP had in creating a dialogue where people can share their thoughts and feelings without getting the old "it is only your opinion" response?

//RexyCat

Nightowl_74

I think healthy discussion is great but in an online forum not specifically devoted to that you have to take it when it pops up and engage selectively because the boundaries that apply in person don't exist. I suppose that goes without saying but I said it anyway.

Personally, I stay away from posts written in an antagonistic manner whether I agree with the bare bones of the statement or not and when quoting anyone I do my best to be polite, even if they didn't extend the same courtesy. There is a point at which I just won't respond to someone at all, because I certainly wouldn't stand there and listen face to face, but that hasn't happened here. My experience here so far hasn't been bad, as compared to other forums in general.

People could be more respectful, more constructive, and more compassionate even, without hurting their own cause. I can see that, despite not having had negative interactions, and agree it would be a good thing.

rotaugen454

If I see an ESO opinion on the level of a flat earther or Alex Jones, it’s hard to hold back...

Wolfpaw

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

As the title says. I see a lot of people saying things like what a stupid thread, stop crying, stop whining, and etc. These chapter updates being a lot of changes, people need time to adjust and process (even if that is in the form of a rant on the forums), and honestly the development team is looking for feedback from the playerbase. These types of threads and discussions are healthy. You may not agree with someone's perspective, but you could at least respect their right to have an opinion. But maybe I'm wrong, what do you guys think?

The reddit community is where it's at...these forums are horrible in comparison.

ESO forums summed up: Nerf, we don't like change, new ideas are dumb, I have 46 alts and grinding the same stuff is awesome!, booo casuals, blame pve/pvp players for X, your entitled, blahblahblah....

TequilaFire

I think that too many people forget that this is just a video game and get too heated in discussing subjects about a made up world, myself included.

Wolfpaw

New post, these people just can't help themselves....
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/476442/some-suggestions-that-i-think-would-improve-the-game#latest

Androconium

RexyCat wrote: »

<snip>

@Androconium

The expression "World" is a common perspective in both within philosophy, sociology and psychology to describe the point of view from an individual stand point to how this person experience its own being or existence from its own position and the surrounding. That surrounding do also include other beings like people and animals among other. This kind of terminology do also fit with posters intention. "Country" would not fit to replace "World" as in this usage to point out a change in World view (meaning that there is something in how we as human being see our world and act on it).

EDIT:

From reading about facts vs opinion and the way it is described I just to add that it is even within philosophy not as clear distinction as you make it sound.

<snip>

Is"likes" in the form of "Insightful", "Agree" or "Awesome" really good tools for communication or even badges for posting in a certain way? Do those forum tools actually control in which direction a certain statement will take form and what kind of intention and interpretation that is being made on ESO forum?
<snip>

Wordly.
The world that I live in is different to the world that you might live. Under my country's legislation, I don't have an embodied right to free speech. Instead, it has anti-sedition laws. That means that I can be held legally accountable for what I do actually say; and potentially prosecuted.

Facts and opinions.
I believe that the way I presented them is a good place to start.

Likes
One of my pet hates in My World, is the "like" button.
This can only ever be an equitable utility if there is a matching "dislike" button.

The ESO buttons are there to be used, but no control on how they are used. Again we only see the happy-happy joy-joy version and therefore, our opinions are formed for us. that may not be logical positivism, but it's clearly enforced positivism.

Androconium

albesca wrote: »

<snip>

I beg to differ

An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No it isn't!

Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!

Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
Yes it is!

No it isn't!
Yes it is!

No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
No it isn't!

I've had enough of this!
No you haven't.

Iskiab

I think I started with a positive disposition on the forums but have been becoming more harsh. It’s all the belly aching and people spouting opinions that are ridiculously misinformed.

If people tried finding answers themselves before spreading misinformation, or stopped being such crybabies I’d be nicer, but people need to stop thinking having an opinion means there’s merit to it.

tinythinker

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

As the title says. I see a lot of people saying things like what a stupid thread, stop crying, stop whining, and etc. These chapter updates being a lot of changes, people need time to adjust and process (even if that is in the form of a rant on the forums), and honestly the development team is looking for feedback from the playerbase. These types of threads and discussions are healthy. You may not agree with someone's perspective, but you could at least respect their right to have an opinion. But maybe I'm wrong, what do you guys think?

@DanteMR1995

You're not wrong. Two things to consider, though. Reaction culture and anonymity.

The first means some people believe it's OK to be a $%^& as long as they get clicks on scripted reactions (in this case awesome, insightful, etc.) or by people yapping back at them. The second means you don't have to see the people you are offending or disrespecting (or even see them as real people) nor face the consequences of your behavior, unless a moderator steps in or you cross a bigger line into getting the interest of law enforcement.

Many people will say "it's just how it is now on the internet" but it's only ever "how we let it be". We can't control other people and how they prefer to interact beyond alerting moderators, but we can choose how and when to engage with others.

I try to post fun or thoughtful things more often than not. Some people might do gentle trolling to genuinely try to be funny in a friendly way (which can work or misfire), some just troll however they can to get any kind of reaction. If it's serious, repeated, highly offensive non-sense I just quietly report it.

I also try to respond to fun or thoughtful content other people post. I myself might joke if I think it's appropriate, but try to read the tea leaves first. But some folks were just never taught that they don't have to try to always prove they are right or show that they know more, that you can choose when to engage and when to withdraw rather than letting other people control you and bait you. Critical interaction/critical thinking skills, like all skills, takes experience and practice to master. But even then some people can really try your patience, which gives you a chance to ask yourself why or if it really matters to bark back.

Vent and whine threads are usually pretty obvious, so avoid those if you are looking for thoughtful commentary. As you wrote they provide feedback and a way to express frustration. Yet other times they are just flame bait. It'd be nice if we could have hover-over-thread-title sneak peeks though to see when people are baiting for conflict. In the end, what the majority of the forum community pays attention to will increase, while what the majority ignores will decrease. The forums are what we make them within the limits set and enforced by the moderators.