"We will narrow the Floor and Ceiling of DPS" PTS ceiling now 90k+

Siohwenoeht

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Put light attacks on the same cooldown as skills, treat them as cheap spammables. Problem solved.

> But muh skilled play.
This is the reason it will never happen. Every time I suggest it, this is the response. Nobody can give a valid reason on why it shouldn't happen, just that pressing the same mouse button every second is somehow "skill" and not a broken and pointless mechanic that creates an unnecessary barrier to entry.

Putting la's on the same cooldown as skills would make combat painfully slow, and practically a wow clone. Plus you'd just be pushing you skill button once per second... From that reasoning it'd be the same "level of skill."

Yes, it would be the same level of skill. Exactly my point. Pressing the same button once a second isn't skill, deciding when to press what button is.

Also, no, it won't be a wow clone. ESO doesn't have cooldowns and blocking and dodging are active abilities.

And don't overplay what light attacks do. Light attack weaving is just there to be there, not because it's in any way an engaging mechanic. And it wouldn't "make combat slow", because animation cancelling wouldn't be gone, you can still dodge roll or block, you just won't be able to use animation cancelling to increase damage by an insane amount.

Throughout I only see positives.

Wow has individual skill cooldowns and eso has a global cooldown, same effect, you wait for the cooldown to end before you can cast the next ability. You're quite right, light attacks fill the space during the global cooldown so you're not just waiting to fire the next skill. It absolutely makes combat more engaging.

Don't overplay the dps "ceiling". You can complete any content in the game, even group content on normal with 20k dps. Even most vet content can be completed with a decent group, following mechanics with players individually pulling 20k.

Hell I'd been soloing group content with not much more than 20k dps but kept practicing (that's how you develop skill, practice makes perfect) and now am pulling 30-35k.

Bottom line for me is that instead of "raising the floor" or nerfing those that pull high dps, zos should do a better job of showing players in game how to practice raising their dps.

Make the two guilds relevant past their story arcs and put a training center at the fighters guild for Stam players and tanks, same at the mages guild for mag and healers.

It doesn't "fill" the space, it's part of the skill activation for people who do it right, there is just as much time that they don't do anything for people doing weaving and for those who don't. If you try doing it between the skills rather than almost at the same time, you'll either lose time or the LAs won't go off at all.

DPS absolutely does make a difference. Going from 30k to 50k turns vMoL from a hardcore trial into an unintentional speed run. And when even such small differences of less than a factor of 2 make such a big difference, how is the game supposed to be balanced when some people are at 10x the power of others?

Can't disagree on the training. There should be something that teaches players advanced combat mechanics. But LA weaving should be removed from the game regardless, because even without the DPS gap it's a clunky broken mechanic that is absolutely unintuitive and annoying to deal with.

Not saying that higher dps doesn't make things easier, my point is only that you don't need to be at the "ceiling" to complete content. It may take longer, but it's doable.

As far as removing light attacks or relegating them to a spammable, what would you replace the mechanic with? Or would weapons just be for the traits, enchants and "looks"? As it is, of course, you need certain weapons equipped to use certain skills, but if the only way you swing your sword or use your staff is to animate a class or weapon skill, what's the point?

To me ESO use weapons in a dynamic way that other MMOs tend to gloss over. It's enjoyable and with resource return associated with it, how and when swing your blade or cast with you staff can be very strategic.

mague

To late, it got out of hand. It was foreseen but happened. Zeni didnt want it, but gave the players what they demanded.

Lapin_Logic

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Eh... for science, I did a parse today on my stamblade wearing 5 pc Briarheart (purple, Divines), Selene's monster set (legendary, Divines), and Spriggan's weaps/jewels (main hand dagger is legendary, nirnhoned, and poison enchant; off-hand dagger is legendary, infused, absorb stam enchant. Two pieces of jewelry are legendary, one epic, two bloodthirsty, one robust, all have weap damage enchants). I got to about 34k, though bear in mind that I've spent hours living in front of a target dummy practicing my rotation. Still, all of those sets are easy to get, and I'd say that 25-30k is pretty damn obtainable with well-traited overland/easier vet dungeon content gear that's been upgraded, and practice.

I get that *We* can hit 30k+ and do maelstrom clears, but we are not the floor, the Floor possibly used the skill advisor and picked morphs, doesn't like pvp so doesn't have caltrops, thinks 5 heavy on a Magicka sorc is good for their survivability, only wishes they had enough gold to buy briarheart and thinks stacking 2 piece weapon damage + 2 piece weapon damage + 2 piece weapon damage makes them powerful... thinks Weapon damage makes their Magicka skills better, uses Stamina + Magicka skills on the same build..... ends up in my Vet Scale caller group XD

These are all *Stuff PUGs say*

Edit Also adding "But Spell Potions are Expensive"

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

In a live stream a few DLC's ago a dev made a statement to narrow the gap of upper end game DPS and the floor of vet DPS builds.

But the floor is still where it was 3 years ago, hear me out, all I see is the bigger ceiling leaps every new DLC, This does not fix the problem of Using, LFG enter dungeon with PUG as Tank or healer only to find it's a crap shoot if your Vet CP160/300/810 DPS can do 13k DPS or 90k DPS.

Heck when you can tape down an auto fire button to light attack on a toon wearing Relequen and Velidreth and hit 12k DPS it is not just about skill scaling it is Compounded by Gear power creep.

Don't get me wrong, I like "Feeling Powerful" on my DPS toons but the gap between Trash gear and BIS has become ridiculous and makes even Base game Vet Pledges an excruciating torture when you are on a Tank or Heal as the Blue Bahraha's Curse Deaths wind Sorcerer Tickles the boss to death.

I am not saying random blue gear should do 55k Dummy parses but I do think BiS pulling Ten Times the DPS meanwhile casuals who join a LFG are still at the DPS they were 3 years ago is a bit out of whack.

Show me someone who did 90K dps on the dummy after it's bug was fixed.....

vesselwiththepestle

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Show me someone who did 90K dps on the dummy after it's bug was fixed.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESl-j1iLbzc

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Show me someone who did 90K dps on the dummy after it's bug was fixed.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESl-j1iLbzc

And you expect that to get it on the live server away from the dummy?

vesselwiththepestle

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

And you expect that to get it on the live server away from the dummy?

That wasn't your question, you asked to show you someone who's doing 90k+ on the dummy. Liko did it. Let's wait for new world records, then. (To be honest, that rotation doesn't seem more complicated than live stamblade rotation, don't you think?)

SoLooney

You can have the best gear, all golded out, max cp, and still pull miserable dps.

Dps is a lot of skill behind it. Floor will always still be as low as it is if players dont put in the effort to practice rotation and weaving.

I see cp 300players with purple armor, gold weapons who still pull 25k with a solid rotation

So if you dont practice, dont complain about low dps

Lapin_Logic

Corpier wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Tbh I'd love for the floor to be raised just so that pugging vet content wasn't so terrible. I don't have time to be in a guild, but I am competent enough to do vet content with a good enough group. It's really obnoxious that group finder pairs me with others that are below my skill level, because it wastes my small amount of time, so I don't end up completing the content I want to complete. Either raise the floor, limit vet group finder to people that can succeed in the content, or make a new group finder that pairs me with someone of a similar skill level.

You do realize that depending on what definition of "skill level" is used and what your is determined to be, such as system in group finder could increase your DD que from 30 minutes to hours?

Maybe replace CP level with a DPS test to assign your LFG rank, Visit the Fighters guild and hump their Target Dummy "Achievement unlocked, 25k DPS" or whatever

Lapin_Logic

ZeroXFF wrote: »

But LA weaving should be removed from the game regardless, because even without the DPS gap it's a clunky broken mechanic that is absolutely unintuitive and annoying to deal with.

Heck on a 250 meg Fiber connection and a decent rig and Quick Cast Ground abilities on if I use my same build from EU on NA I can drop 8k DPS because LA, Caltrops, LA, Hail, La, inject becomes.

LA , Caltrops, LA, (yellow Circle but nothing) LA,LA, Inject.
Or Mag sorc stuck in a channel heavy every rotation at random.

I Love the Combat but it doesn't love being on an internet based game.

Feanor

Raising the floor is a futile endeavor. There are just too many players in the game who are not interested in learning to get better. Which is ok of course as long as they stay out of Vet Group content.

Lapin_Logic

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Not saying that higher dps doesn't make things easier, my point is only that you don't need to be at the "ceiling" to complete content. It may take longer, but it's doable.

As far as removing light attacks or relegating them to a spammable, what would you replace the mechanic with? Or would weapons just be for the traits, enchants and "looks"? As it is, of course, you need certain weapons equipped to use certain skills, but if the only way you swing your sword or use your staff is to animate a class or weapon skill, what's the point?

To me ESO use weapons in a dynamic way that other MMOs tend to gloss over. It's enjoyable and with resource return associated with it, how and when swing your blade or cast with you staff can be very strategic.

An idea is make LA weaving also a Sustain tool and drop the damage down while tuning class skills up a bit, that way you keep the reward for Light attacking in that you can posdibly swap your enchant or food if you can perfect weave for sustain, it is still a damage enabler and damage stays high but it reduces the damage discrepancies between ok damage and terrible damage because weaving isn't a huge damage booster but the sustain is.

Lapin_Logic

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Show me someone who did 90K dps on the dummy after it's bug was fixed.....

Pretty sure "th3asiangod" is still posting 88-89k on the raid dummy when testing wierd stuff like "are maelstrom daggers good again"

Thing is with "raid buffs" is everyone says "Trials are harder content" but also want endless buffs that double their DPS

Lapin_Logic

SoLooney wrote: »

You can have the best gear, all golded out, max cp, and still pull miserable dps.

Dps is a lot of skill behind. Floor will always still as low as it is if players dont put in the effort to practice rotation and weaving.

I see cp 300players with purple armor, gold weapons who still pull 25k with a solid rotation

So if you dont practice, dont complain about low dps

Im not complaining about My Dps, it is random group of the days DPS, and god willing no amount of my practice can make someone else good.

Elwendryll

You will always find people dedicated not to be able to reach 10k dps.
They did things to rise the floor, and they keep doing it. Like, they buffed 2H, and for my stamsorc the results are closer than ever to DW. They are making easy playstyles accessible, with low effort/high reward, like WW or relequen.

You can't blame ZOS if you stumble across a low CP Roleplayer who wants to experience a dungeon. No matter what they do to make it easy to reach an acceptable dps, you'll always find people who don't care, and that's okay, because they shouldn't have to.

vesselwiththepestle

When we talk about raising the floor, I don't think that can include players not trying to get better and staying completely ignorant to how the game works.

I know players who are using excuses like not having a vma bow for doing low dps. a vma bow won't get them magically from 10k to 50k.

But I also know players who are trying to get better, but still consider 15k dps a huge achievement. This is the floor we should talk about. Players who put into at least some effort, who are running if not best in slot at least valid set, but who can't achieve high numbers, probably because they just aren't that good.

T3hasiangod isn't reaching the same numbers as Liko, and I can't even reach the same numbers as th3asiangod. Still I am top dps in my raid group. I can't reach the ceiling because I am not that good, but we have a huge diversity of what players are able to dps.

So that there are players putting in no effort doesn't matter to the discussion of raising the floor, because they aren't the floor, they aren't even in the house.

The change to Berserking Warrior is a good change in terms of raising the floor. The change will make it easier to keep up the stacks for players not being able to weave as good as top players. My stacks went up on PTS for sure. We need more changes like that.

mague

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

So that there are players putting in no effort doesn't matter to the discussion of raising the floor, because they aren't the floor, they aren't even in the house.

I think the ESO community does not speak the same language.

It is not like people dont want to "invest" into a game. But some strictly refuse "operant conditioning". And modern game rotations and scripted fights are just that. It doesnt imply an evil masterplan, but thats the problem for many players. Thats why players want a solo instance of storytelling dungeons. To play the game while avoiding group dynamics.

I think it is to late. In the old MMO days the devs talked about a max of 10% between floor and ceiling. In teh days of esports that not working anymore. For bottom to center i hope for a buff of light and heavy attacks while they scale from the biggest resource. Could be a set of passive switches in the world skill tree or in the racial tree.

xMovingTarget

Who does not learn their class, who does not practice their rotation, who simply does not care will just be around 20k dps. Its that simple.

Everyone, literally EVERY SINGLE PLAYER has the potential to hit 50k well, lets maybe say 40-45k solo singletarget 6 million Dummy DPS. without exceptions.
The issue is, as stated in the first sentence. If you dont want to get better, you will always be floor. None of the "ceiling" players automatically did 50k+ dps. Every single one practiced rotations, learned the class, farmed the gear, practiced even more.

I say it boldly, since its the truth. And there is no point to argue

Your bad DPS is your own fault

It is everyones decision. If you dont care and you just want to do quests here and there, explore every corner of the world. You do you. It will not get you better at DPS though.
Just to bring up one example.
Some people are vehemently against LA weaving and animation canceling. Again a decision those people make. If you dont want to do this, your DPs will suck. As simple put as possible.

There is some form of skill needed in ESOs combat to reach the very top. Just to summerize

• Learning the class
• Figuring out and learning a rotation (plenty of guides on this one)
• Practice the rotation over and over again on a 6m (yes 6, not 3) Dummy
• Actually playing a class in all content
• Farming together the gear to further supplement your character(this should come last)

That´s pretty much it. Other than "I dont want to", there is no reason for anyone to not be able to hit 40k+ DPS in this game on 6m dummy solo.

Crunkanaut

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

You can have the best gear, all golded out, max cp, and still pull miserable dps.

Dps is a lot of skill behind. Floor will always still as low as it is if players dont put in the effort to practice rotation and weaving.

I see cp 300players with purple armor, gold weapons who still pull 25k with a solid rotation

So if you dont practice, dont complain about low dps

Im not complaining about My Dps, it is random group of the days DPS, and god willing no amount of my practice can make someone else good.

yeah thats true, so dont go in with pugs ? go get some friends if you dont want to play with newbies or ppl that only playing this game because ITS FUN . ah with this atitude you cant find friends uff

vesselwiththepestle

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Everyone, literally EVERY SINGLE PLAYER has the potential to hit 50k well, lets maybe say 40-45k solo singletarget 6 million Dummy DPS. without exceptions.

Those numbers are totally arbitrary.

xMovingTarget

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Everyone, literally EVERY SINGLE PLAYER has the potential to hit 50k well, lets maybe say 40-45k solo singletarget 6 million Dummy DPS. without exceptions.

Those numbers are totally arbitrary.

Not at all. If you really want to, you can do 40k. everyone can. You wonder why I chose those numbers?

50k is actually pretty good. You can reach that even with making mistakes in your rotation. While you have top end gear.
40-45k I chose because some people may have disabilities and so on. But 40k is possible for everyone. With the points I made in my post.
Unless you simply do not want to improve yourself.

Haquor

Tasear wrote: »

Light attacks do more damage now so has helped pugs. I assume if they buffed galwene we would have pig friendly set. Tanks also likely backbar different weapon now so there's that. Lastly nercomancer has ultimate that actually makes you tanky and dps so there's more engaging tankimg style there.

We are better then before

And who benefits more from stronger light attacks? All those pugs who have mastered weaving? Nooooo.

Ceiling vs floor will not be closed. Skill and networking in game matters. Everyone has the same tools available to play and earn equipment and get better.

Like the real world, though given the opportunity, you arent going to get equal outcomes.

vesselwiththepestle

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Not at all. If you really want to, you can do 40k. everyone can. You wonder why I chose those numbers?

You don't actually explain your statistics, you just repeat them with more details. They are still arbitrary and just a claim without proof. How much training do you expect from a player to achieve those numbers? Calling 50k DPS the FLOOR is insane. If you do that, you don't need to talk about the FLOOR at all.

xMovingTarget

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Not at all. If you really want to, you can do 40k. everyone can. You wonder why I chose those numbers?

You don't actually explain your statistics, you just repeat them with more details. They are still arbitrary and just a claim without proof. How much training do you expect from a player to achieve those numbers? Calling 50k DPS the FLOOR is insane. If you do that, you don't need to talk about the FLOOR at all.

I think you are misunderstanding something.
I dont talk about floor at all. I only say everybody can reach 40k with practice. How much prictice is up to the individual. some will learn faster than others. But that is not the point I made.
The point is, you can do 40k with practice and some dedication. No more, no less. And the numbers are all based on 6m dummy. Not the new raid dummy.
Fact is, everyone can hit that. If you are fully able to play the game, you can do 40k at least. No doubt about it. Only excuses if you cant.

Grianasteri

Juhasow wrote: »

Floor is where it was 3 years ago ? 3 years ago 20k+ was considered ok DPS 30k was already really good. Now You can get 20k DPS selfbuffed by putting the brick on 1 button and leaving the room.

This is simply not possible for the average player, or else the average dps would be significantly higher than it actually is. I am so tired of hearing folk say just hold down a button and get over 20k dps. If you are max CPs, gold gear with Maelstrom weapons, maybe... which the average player simply isnt and is unlikely ever to be.

How do folk think it makes the average player feel, or the newer less experienced players feel, when they may be working hard at their builds and rotations but unable to reach 20k... being told just hold down a button and its easy, when the fact is for them, it isnt.

Draxys

DyingIsEasy wrote: »

@ZeroXFF

Unlike spamming only skills weaving requires precise timing. In my book that counts as a different level of skill.

Huh? You can literally just spam the light attack button while you hit your skill buttons in the right order. I wouldn’t exactly describe that as using precise timing.

Anyway, I’m against light attack weaving for physiological reasons. It’s incredibly annoying to sit there and have my forefinger hitting the same freaking button multiple times a second (or at least once a second) for hours on end.

DyingIsEasy

Draxys wrote: »

DyingIsEasy wrote: »

@ZeroXFF

Unlike spamming only skills weaving requires precise timing. In my book that counts as a different level of skill.

Huh? You can literally just spam the light attack button while you hit your skill buttons in the right order. I wouldn’t exactly describe that as using precise timing.

Anyway, I’m against light attack weaving for physiological reasons. It’s incredibly annoying to sit there and have my forefinger hitting the same freaking button multiple times a second (or at least once a second) for hours on end.

You are right. You can do that but you're not going to get >0.95 LA/s that way. It's a simple way of getting to an acceptable level of weaving but to really master weaving you need to precisely time the mouse click.

Juhasow

Grianasteri wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Floor is where it was 3 years ago ? 3 years ago 20k+ was considered ok DPS 30k was already really good. Now You can get 20k DPS selfbuffed by putting the brick on 1 button and leaving the room.

This is simply not possible for the average player, or else the average dps would be significantly higher than it actually is. I am so tired of hearing folk say just hold down a button and get over 20k dps. If you are max CPs, gold gear with Maelstrom weapons, maybe... which the average player simply isnt and is unlikely ever to be.

How do folk think it makes the average player feel, or the newer less experienced players feel, when they may be working hard at their builds and rotations but unable to reach 20k... being told just hold down a button and its easy, when the fact is for them, it isnt.

Here is 20k parse without vMA weapon , with all non DLC easy to obtain sets in purple quality except weapon.



Here is the rotation I used to achieve that



Yes I had max CP with that parse but person with 300 CP can use just 1 ability and hold 1 button and achieve 20k+. 20k DPS is a meme these days same as people claiming it's hard to achieve that.

Lapin_Logic

Crunkanaut wrote: »

yeah thats true, so dont go in with pugs ? go get some friends if you dont want to play with newbies or ppl that only playing this game because ITS FUN . ah with this atitude you cant find friends uff

😣 I have Friends, I have Guilds They are not available 24/7 at my Beckoned call .
If I have just come off Night shift or am on when everyone else is at work and take a pledge on my Tank I use the "In game mechanic" of LFG to find a "Damage Dealer" the problem isn't "Get friends" the problem is a casual player either has not been told adequately by the game how to build and play a DD or Does not want to play Dark Souls with an elder scrolls theme or just remembers that in Skyrim you shoot an arrow to the Knee from stealth to get a bonus and then Fus Ro Da "Ground Based AOE DOT... what's that? (spams endless hail every second only) I don't like that".

The sort of people who would only be able to do DPS if they wear proc sets that do it for them.

Having friends does not fix the LFG or Bad DDs

mpicklesster

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Bottom line for me is that instead of "raising the floor" or nerfing those that pull high dps, zos should do a better job of showing players in game how to practice raising their dps.

Make the two guilds relevant past their story arcs and put a training center at the fighters guild for Stam players and tanks, same at the mages guild for mag and healers.

^^^^THIS! 1000 times, THIS! Finally, someone else gets it! If ZOS has a certain kind of combat envisioned for top tier DPS in their game, they should teach people about it in their own game. Too often, they rely entirely on the kindness and ingenuity of the community to teach their subscribers how to optimally DPS (or heal or tank).

To be fair, I don't envy ZOS in this regard. I'm sure they would get harshly criticized for whatever in-game tutorials they made for DPSing, healing, or tanking. But making any in-game tutorials at this point would at least be a step in the right direction. And with @ZOS_Gilliam on their team now, I'm sure they could refine their tutorials into something very worthwhile in the long-run.