"We will narrow the Floor and Ceiling of DPS" PTS ceiling now 90k+

Lapin_Logic

In a live stream a few DLC's ago a dev made a statement to narrow the gap of upper end game DPS and the floor of vet DPS builds.

But the floor is still where it was 3 years ago, hear me out, all I see is the bigger ceiling leaps every new DLC, This does not fix the problem of Using, LFG enter dungeon with PUG as Tank or healer only to find it's a crap shoot if your Vet CP160/300/810 DPS can do 13k DPS or 90k DPS.

Heck when you can tape down an auto fire button to light attack on a toon wearing Relequen and Velidreth and hit 12k DPS it is not just about skill scaling it is Compounded by Gear power creep.

Don't get me wrong, I like "Feeling Powerful" on my DPS toons but the gap between Trash gear and BIS has become ridiculous and makes even Base game Vet Pledges an excruciating torture when you are on a Tank or Heal as the Blue Bahraha's Curse Deaths wind Sorcerer Tickles the boss to death.

I am not saying random blue gear should do 55k Dummy parses but I do think BiS pulling Ten Times the DPS meanwhile casuals who join a LFG are still at the DPS they were 3 years ago is a bit out of whack.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

That 90k is on a dummy will all possible buffs/debuffs, even just light attacks will get you 25k.

Onefrkncrzypope

Ikr, back in my day when dinosaurs roamed the earth, it was cheese to use a lightning staff on your back bar..... Like it's neat to see the top end for each class and will help with balancing alot but really that dummy has every buff almost. You get hicirnces and work and 100% major force which is impossible to have up that much. Take with a grain of salt. Look at parses on the old dummy and you will find it much more common. Remember there really only one new set in the elsweyr patch that changed.

Also just a side not. LA are now topping the the percentages in parses to. That means the la spammers in the que hit harder two. It's much more difficult not to be under 15k than it was before la buff enchant buff and the two set piece big stick buff.


Those weren't there to help endgamers. That was for the potatoes you speak off. That's why the creep is so bad in the first place. The easy damage needed to boil a potato is also at the top end of the spud game to fry up tots.

Lapin_Logic

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

That 90k is on a dummy will all possible buffs/debuffs, even just light attacks will get you 25k.

I'm just reiterating a issue the devs raised as a concern, besides regardless of the new Dummy, on live you can see the difference when you throw your warhorn and see group DPS over 100k vs 25k (flashbacks of my Tank chained to the floor with a sword descending from above and party wipes).

I think that is the big problem with PUGs

Vapirko

You can do quite a reasonable amount of DPS (25k+ self buffed) with hundings and briarheart, both easily attainable. That’s enough to do any vet dungeon. LFG dungeons are a drag because people don’t know what they’re doing. You don’t need 40k+ DPS to do vet dungeons.

Edited to hundings. Originally auto corrected to bindings and I did not mean to suggest people use briarheart and keybunds

kathandira

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

In a live stream a few DLC's ago a dev made a statement to narrow the gap of upper end game DPS and the floor of vet DPS builds.

But the floor is still where it was 3 years ago, hear me out, all I see is the bigger ceiling leaps every new DLC, This does not fix the problem of Using, LFG enter dungeon with PUG as Tank or healer only to find it's a crap shoot if your Vet CP160/300/810 DPS can do 13k DPS or 90k DPS.

Heck when you can tape down an auto fire button to light attack on a toon wearing Relequen and Velidreth and hit 12k DPS it is not just about skill scaling it is Compounded by Gear power creep.

Don't get me wrong, I like "Feeling Powerful" on my DPS toons but the gap between Trash gear and BIS has become ridiculous and makes even Base game Vet Pledges an excruciating torture when you are on a Tank or Heal as the Blue Bahraha's Curse Deaths wind Sorcerer Tickles the boss to death.

I am not saying random blue gear should do 55k Dummy parses but I do think BiS pulling Ten Times the DPS meanwhile casuals who join a LFG are still at the DPS they were 3 years ago is a bit out of whack.

Is that 90k ceiling on the Iron Atronach? Because that is a fully raid buffed test.

Vildebill

BiS Gear is not the problem, skill cap is. If you know your rotation, can light attack decently and use the right skills, 25k single target is a no brainer in basic gear.

I've seen countless nerf posts, posts about power creep, and yet with knowledge, practice and dedication these numbers are obtainable for everyone.

NBrookus

You missed the part where grinding for new gear each patch buffs your player time numbers. And their are genuinely a lot of players (in any game) that like to grind and get all the latest things.

Tasear

Light attacks do more damage now so has helped pugs. I assume if they buffed galwene we would have pig friendly set. Tanks also likely backbar different weapon now so there's that. Lastly nercomancer has ultimate that actually makes you tanky and dps so there's more engaging tankimg style there.

We are better then before

Katahdin

The problem is anything that brings up the floor also raises the ceiling and anything that lowers the ceiling also lowers the floor.

There is no way to raise the floor and lower the ceiling

Kova

I'm still unclear on why "raising the floor" is necessary. The argument seems ask for competitive play to be optional for...reasons? I thought the consequence for not being able to do content was not doing the content.

It just reminds me of uni. One of my classmates was doing terrible on assignments and very casually states that he's just going to ask our professor to pass him. I'm like, "wtf, you can do that?"

And apprently the answer was yes, yes you can. I hope that's not the case here.

Silver_Strider

Katahdin wrote: »

The problem is anything that brings up the floor also raises the ceiling and anything that lowers the ceiling also lowers the floor.

There is no way to raise the floor and lower the ceiling

Technically, removing Animation Cancelling would lower the ceiling immensely without touching the floor but since ZOS can't, you are correct in that there isn't really any other way to raise the floor without the roof also benefiting

SidraWillowsky

Eh... for science, I did a parse today on my stamblade wearing 5 pc Briarheart (purple, Divines), Selene's monster set (legendary, Divines), and Spriggan's weaps/jewels (main hand dagger is legendary, nirnhoned, and poison enchant; off-hand dagger is legendary, infused, absorb stam enchant. Two pieces of jewelry are legendary, one epic, two bloodthirsty, one robust, all have weap damage enchants). I got to about 34k, though bear in mind that I've spent hours living in front of a target dummy practicing my rotation. Still, all of those sets are easy to get, and I'd say that 25-30k is pretty damn obtainable with well-traited overland/easier vet dungeon content gear that's been upgraded, and practice.

Kurat

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

The problem is anything that brings up the floor also raises the ceiling and anything that lowers the ceiling also lowers the floor.

There is no way to raise the floor and lower the ceiling

Technically, removing Animation Cancelling would lower the ceiling immensely without touching the floor but since ZOS can't, you are correct in that there isn't really any other way to raise the floor without the roof also benefiting

Animation cancelling is not the issue here. And no one can pull 90k self buffed. That is with all raid buffs. There is no single thing that gives you good dps. It all comes and adds up from different sources like rotation, perfect la weaving, bis gear, build, skill etc. Even if they could and would somehow get rid of animation cancelling, weaving and cp there would still be huge power creep. There are alot of ppl who run without full sets even and no rotation, they spam bow light attacks only and can barely do 10k dps. Its impossible to reduce power creep because of that.
No matter what Zos does, good players will always be able to do 5x the dps compared the bottom.

heng14rwb17_ESO

NO 100K DEEPS NO TALK !

ZeroXFF

Put light attacks on the same cooldown as skills, treat them as cheap spammables. Problem solved.

> But muh skilled play.
This is the reason it will never happen. Every time I suggest it, this is the response. Nobody can give a valid reason on why it shouldn't happen, just that pressing the same mouse button every second is somehow "skill" and not a broken and pointless mechanic that creates an unnecessary barrier to entry.

Siohwenoeht

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Put light attacks on the same cooldown as skills, treat them as cheap spammables. Problem solved.

> But muh skilled play.
This is the reason it will never happen. Every time I suggest it, this is the response. Nobody can give a valid reason on why it shouldn't happen, just that pressing the same mouse button every second is somehow "skill" and not a broken and pointless mechanic that creates an unnecessary barrier to entry.

Putting la's on the same cooldown as skills would make combat painfully slow, and practically a wow clone. Plus you'd just be pushing you skill button once per second... From that reasoning it'd be the same "level of skill."

Morgul667

There are many things they could do to raise the floor

But i think they are afraid of unexpected issues and just let it go

ZeroXFF

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Put light attacks on the same cooldown as skills, treat them as cheap spammables. Problem solved.

> But muh skilled play.
This is the reason it will never happen. Every time I suggest it, this is the response. Nobody can give a valid reason on why it shouldn't happen, just that pressing the same mouse button every second is somehow "skill" and not a broken and pointless mechanic that creates an unnecessary barrier to entry.

Putting la's on the same cooldown as skills would make combat painfully slow, and practically a wow clone. Plus you'd just be pushing you skill button once per second... From that reasoning it'd be the same "level of skill."

Yes, it would be the same level of skill. Exactly my point. Pressing the same button once a second isn't skill, deciding when to press what button is.

Also, no, it won't be a wow clone. ESO doesn't have cooldowns and blocking and dodging are active abilities.

And don't overplay what light attacks do. Light attack weaving is just there to be there, not because it's in any way an engaging mechanic. And it wouldn't "make combat slow", because animation cancelling wouldn't be gone, you can still dodge roll or block, you just won't be able to use animation cancelling to increase damage by an insane amount.

Throughout I only see positives.

Juhasow

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

That 90k is on a dummy will all possible buffs/debuffs, even just light attacks will get you 25k.

I'm just reiterating a issue the devs raised as a concern, besides regardless of the new Dummy, on live you can see the difference when you throw your warhorn and see group DPS over 100k vs 25k (flashbacks of my Tank chained to the floor with a sword descending from above and party wipes).

I think that is the big problem with PUGs

You do realise even on live server atm people can pull 100k on dummy ? It's just easier on PTS because You dont have to call group of people to buff You when new training dummy gives all buffs possible.

Juhasow

Floor is where it was 3 years ago ? 3 years ago 20k+ was considered ok DPS 30k was already really good. Now You can get 20k DPS selfbuffed by putting the brick on 1 button and leaving the room.

DyingIsEasy

@ZeroXFF

Unlike spamming only skills weaving requires precise timing. In my book that counts as a different level of skill.

Starlock

Katahdin wrote: »

The problem is anything that brings up the floor also raises the ceiling and anything that lowers the ceiling also lowers the floor.

There is no way to raise the floor and lower the ceiling

Sure there is. Hard caps and diminishing returns. They do this already for some aspects of the game, like damage reduction. I hear they used to do it for more things, but moved away from that model for some reason.

WuffyCerulei

Those parses are literally on a parse-inflating dummy that gives people a million buffs as well as debuffs to the dummy itself and shards for the parser. Those are like the representation of what can be done in the absolute perfect circumstances, not what is actually accurate. The parses most likely have cheesey af builds that include Zaan’s or stuff like that.

Corpier

The mentality of "raise the floor and lower the ceiling" is stupid and always will be stupid. Don't nerf skill and stop expecting that the Skyrim2 Light Attacks Online crowd won't always be warm bodies on the floor. Anything introduced to inflate the dps of low skill players will also be used by high skill players who will know how to use it better. What should be done is introduce mechanics that suggest how to increase dps in order to teach players how to improve. Sets that taught players to use light attacks once per second were a step in the right direct for that (now if only we could get another for using an ability once per second...).

Case in point Relequen. It inflates the parses of people that only light attacks, it inflates the parse of those who do imperfect weaving and abilities, but it most inflates the parses of those who weave perfectly.

Also don't lower the ceiling. If that happens then those in the middle have less reason to improve, and those at the top will have a harder time carrying those at the bottom.

P.S. Google Pareto Principle, just seems appropriate to mention since it seems like 20% of DDs tend to do 80% of the dmg in ESO. As long as this game rightfully rewards skill this will continue. When you raise the floor the ceiling is raised with it.

RaptorRodeoGod

Tbh I'd love for the floor to be raised just so that pugging vet content wasn't so terrible. I don't have time to be in a guild, but I am competent enough to do vet content with a good enough group. It's really obnoxious that group finder pairs me with others that are below my skill level, because it wastes my small amount of time, so I don't end up completing the content I want to complete. Either raise the floor, limit vet group finder to people that can succeed in the content, or make a new group finder that pairs me with someone of a similar skill level.

Corpier

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Tbh I'd love for the floor to be raised just so that pugging vet content wasn't so terrible. I don't have time to be in a guild, but I am competent enough to do vet content with a good enough group. It's really obnoxious that group finder pairs me with others that are below my skill level, because it wastes my small amount of time, so I don't end up completing the content I want to complete. Either raise the floor, limit vet group finder to people that can succeed in the content, or make a new group finder that pairs me with someone of a similar skill level.

You do realize that depending on what definition of "skill level" is used and what your is determined to be, such as system in group finder could increase your DD que from 30 minutes to hours?

Siohwenoeht

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Put light attacks on the same cooldown as skills, treat them as cheap spammables. Problem solved.

> But muh skilled play.
This is the reason it will never happen. Every time I suggest it, this is the response. Nobody can give a valid reason on why it shouldn't happen, just that pressing the same mouse button every second is somehow "skill" and not a broken and pointless mechanic that creates an unnecessary barrier to entry.

Putting la's on the same cooldown as skills would make combat painfully slow, and practically a wow clone. Plus you'd just be pushing you skill button once per second... From that reasoning it'd be the same "level of skill."

Yes, it would be the same level of skill. Exactly my point. Pressing the same button once a second isn't skill, deciding when to press what button is.

Also, no, it won't be a wow clone. ESO doesn't have cooldowns and blocking and dodging are active abilities.

And don't overplay what light attacks do. Light attack weaving is just there to be there, not because it's in any way an engaging mechanic. And it wouldn't "make combat slow", because animation cancelling wouldn't be gone, you can still dodge roll or block, you just won't be able to use animation cancelling to increase damage by an insane amount.

Throughout I only see positives.

Wow has individual skill cooldowns and eso has a global cooldown, same effect, you wait for the cooldown to end before you can cast the next ability. You're quite right, light attacks fill the space during the global cooldown so you're not just waiting to fire the next skill. It absolutely makes combat more engaging.

Don't overplay the dps "ceiling". You can complete any content in the game, even group content on normal with 20k dps. Even most vet content can be completed with a decent group, following mechanics with players individually pulling 20k.

Hell I'd been soloing group content with not much more than 20k dps but kept practicing (that's how you develop skill, practice makes perfect) and now am pulling 30-35k.

Bottom line for me is that instead of "raising the floor" or nerfing those that pull high dps, zos should do a better job of showing players in game how to practice raising their dps.

Make the two guilds relevant past their story arcs and put a training center at the fighters guild for Stam players and tanks, same at the mages guild for mag and healers.

idk

First time Zos said their were raising the floor and lowering the ceiling was the start of just the opposite. Top DPS has increased noticeably most every quarter (and CP has had little effect). While the lower end of dps has been stagnant.

It must be in the same source of measurement where Matt Firor says Zos has been killing it in taking care of problems with ESO that they somehow measure success. I think the rest of us would call it delusional. lol

Edit: we have seen change occur from PTS to live that greatly reduced DPS. I recall the bug Gil and others demonstrated about the infused back bar procing the enchant from lightning WoE before Zos made that a normal feature.

ZeroXFF

DyingIsEasy wrote: »

@ZeroXFF

Unlike spamming only skills weaving requires precise timing. In my book that counts as a different level of skill.

You're confusing skill and unnecessary complexity. Once you have it in muscle memory, it results in zero interactive gameplay. It is just part of the skill. You never have to decide to do it in a different sequence for a combo, you never change the timing, you never even think about it any more. It has become part of how you press the skill buttons.

If we take the comparison of your colleagues among supporters of bad game design seriously, this already is like WoW, except unlike in a properly designed game where you press one button to use one skill effectively, you always have to press 2. You guys are probably also advocating for volume controls like this:

ZeroXFF

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Put light attacks on the same cooldown as skills, treat them as cheap spammables. Problem solved.

> But muh skilled play.
This is the reason it will never happen. Every time I suggest it, this is the response. Nobody can give a valid reason on why it shouldn't happen, just that pressing the same mouse button every second is somehow "skill" and not a broken and pointless mechanic that creates an unnecessary barrier to entry.

Putting la's on the same cooldown as skills would make combat painfully slow, and practically a wow clone. Plus you'd just be pushing you skill button once per second... From that reasoning it'd be the same "level of skill."

Yes, it would be the same level of skill. Exactly my point. Pressing the same button once a second isn't skill, deciding when to press what button is.

Also, no, it won't be a wow clone. ESO doesn't have cooldowns and blocking and dodging are active abilities.

And don't overplay what light attacks do. Light attack weaving is just there to be there, not because it's in any way an engaging mechanic. And it wouldn't "make combat slow", because animation cancelling wouldn't be gone, you can still dodge roll or block, you just won't be able to use animation cancelling to increase damage by an insane amount.

Throughout I only see positives.

Wow has individual skill cooldowns and eso has a global cooldown, same effect, you wait for the cooldown to end before you can cast the next ability. You're quite right, light attacks fill the space during the global cooldown so you're not just waiting to fire the next skill. It absolutely makes combat more engaging.

Don't overplay the dps "ceiling". You can complete any content in the game, even group content on normal with 20k dps. Even most vet content can be completed with a decent group, following mechanics with players individually pulling 20k.

Hell I'd been soloing group content with not much more than 20k dps but kept practicing (that's how you develop skill, practice makes perfect) and now am pulling 30-35k.

Bottom line for me is that instead of "raising the floor" or nerfing those that pull high dps, zos should do a better job of showing players in game how to practice raising their dps.

Make the two guilds relevant past their story arcs and put a training center at the fighters guild for Stam players and tanks, same at the mages guild for mag and healers.

It doesn't "fill" the space, it's part of the skill activation for people who do it right, there is just as much time that they don't do anything for people doing weaving and for those who don't. If you try doing it between the skills rather than almost at the same time, you'll either lose time or the LAs won't go off at all.

DPS absolutely does make a difference. Going from 30k to 50k turns vMoL from a hardcore trial into an unintentional speed run. And when even such small differences of less than a factor of 2 make such a big difference, how is the game supposed to be balanced when some people are at 10x the power of others?

Can't disagree on the training. There should be something that teaches players advanced combat mechanics. But LA weaving should be removed from the game regardless, because even without the DPS gap it's a clunky broken mechanic that is absolutely unintuitive and annoying to deal with.