The PvP Performance Override we all want and need right now.

VinayExile

@ZOS_GinaBruno forward this to the dev team and think about it, even if its temporary, because no one wants to loose so many players to bad performance

Because it is getting worse and worse why not do a very simple ''fix'' for improvement like every other MMO has?

let me give you some detail about what i mean :

- disable all skins/mount skins/outfits etc.
- disable all character hairstyles/jewelry/body markings etc
- disable CP
- disable all allied effects
- disable Siege effects
- Remove all npc's from cyrodill
- remove all post-processing effects
- Limit view distance to 30 for everyone
- limit server load by disabling any server information loader ( for example, guildsearch/guildstoresearch inventory search etc )
- limit or disable DirectX
- limit moving shadows
- disable all poisons/weapon enchants in pvp ( you could add maybe 1 or 2 poisons only usable in pvp to remove server load for 100 different ones )
- Remove all weapons traits and armor traits in pvp besides impenetrable and make impenetrable only usably in pvp
- remove weapon and gear appearance and make 1 biased outfit for light heavy and medium armor that everyone has.
- disable ALL item sets in pvp, make a new pile of gear sets intentionally designed for PvP alone, gear sets without timed procs or premade set proc chances that may or may not proc, the amount of stress relieved from the server loosing all these calculations will be IMMENSE. ( i mean make sets with a buff or a stat that is on 100% of the time so the server doesn't have to keep track of these procs all the time )
- make 1 type of CC animation , stun,root,slow not 10 like now.
- disable different movement speeds, only 1 and not stackable.


any more ideas much appreciated, i know i list alot of things here that could be client changed, but this is NOT the case on ps4/xbox.

Zacuel

I can't tell if this is for serious or not.

But on console if I could dumb my graphics down to Minecraft level to improve performance I would.

SirAndy

VinayExile wrote: »

any more ideas much appreciated

So basically, turn the game into Quake Arena ...

SidraWillowsky

NERF SORCS

VinayExile

SirAndy wrote: »

VinayExile wrote: »

any more ideas much appreciated

So basically, turn the game into Quake Arena ...

no, just a pvp override, and maybe for trials. the rest of the game untouched

StormeReigns

VinayExile wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

VinayExile wrote: »

any more ideas much appreciated

So basically, turn the game into Quake Arena ...

no, just a pvp override, and maybe for trials. the rest of the game untouched

So, just turn pvp into Quake Arena, just without the fun quake offers.

ghastley

Everything you list is a client-side change. It won't do anything about server issues, or internet connection issues. Most players' complaints are about the internet connection between the client and the server (high or inconsistent ping), or percieved load issues on the server when a lot of character interactions are being calculated. The data traffic between the two ends is actually pretty small, so it's more a latency issue than bandwidth.

VinayExile

ghastley wrote: »

Everything you list is a client-side change. It won't do anything about server issues, or internet connection issues. Most players' complaints are about the internet connection between the client and the server (high or inconsistent ping), or percieved load issues on the server when a lot of character interactions are being calculated. The data traffic between the two ends is actually pretty small, so it's more a latency issue than bandwidth.

There are indeed some things that I listed that are client controllable.
But not everyone can change this, for example people on xbox or ps4

VinayExile

SkerKro wrote: »

VinayExile wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

VinayExile wrote: »

any more ideas much appreciated

So basically, turn the game into Quake Arena ...

no, just a pvp override, and maybe for trials. the rest of the game untouched

So, just turn pvp into Quake Arena, just without the fun quake offers.

Maybe, I've never played quake.
But the state this game is in right now is a meme.
So if they cant fix it better do it this way then nothing at all.

zaria

Your graphic settings will help you if your have low frame rate, it does not affect others.
Yes turning off shadows and stuff would help you a lot.
Cyrodil and trials should have other graphic settings

However everything visual only affect your unit server don't have to do anything than send their outfit data and its part of the package as in race and class.

Removing npc would let you solo keeps. and in practice disable resources as they would not be defended.

The real killer on server performance I believe is all the AoE, then two large groups clashes its lots of AoE around and all that need to be calculated for all players affected so if two 24 man ball groups clashes lots of AoE effects up.

Server performance is best measured then not in combat, if you get random load screen alone its an server issue.
same with low frame rate here.
To test your system go to Alik'r desert during prime time, note your performance alone, now go up to an dolmen zerg, do not engage, just observe and move around, the added lag is client side and will be the same in an huge pvp fight.

Do not play on an potato, drop your setting before enter cyrodil if you do.

Karius_Imalthar

I don't really understand the point of this post.

Ramber

ghastley wrote: »

Everything you list is a client-side change. It won't do anything about server issues, or internet connection issues. Most players' complaints are about the internet connection between the client and the server (high or inconsistent ping), or percieved load issues on the server when a lot of character interactions are being calculated. The data traffic between the two ends is actually pretty small, so it's more a latency issue than bandwidth.

actually most people who complain about the game lag include the fact that their internet has been checked as a source of the problem. The lag is real no matter what you pay for internet or hardware.

zaria

VinayExile wrote: »

ghastley wrote: »

Everything you list is a client-side change. It won't do anything about server issues, or internet connection issues. Most players' complaints are about the internet connection between the client and the server (high or inconsistent ping), or percieved load issues on the server when a lot of character interactions are being calculated. The data traffic between the two ends is actually pretty small, so it's more a latency issue than bandwidth.

There are indeed some things that I listed that are client controllable.
But not everyone can change this, for example people on xbox or ps4

ZoS could pretty easy change graphics then loading Cyrodil or trials.
Yes this require competence, so does surviving the first trash in wayrest 1.

SirAndy

VinayExile wrote: »

I've never played quake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE5b_cTZzBw

zyk

Oh yes, please let me disable other player's cosmetics and vanity pets. I really resent how ZOS has sacrificed client performance to cram as much as they possibly can into the Crown store.

ESO has different performance issues. The critical issue in Cyrodiil is server performance, but ZOS has added so many art assets via styles, mounts, pets, skins, accessories, etc that asset management has emerged as a cause of client stutter.

LordTareq

I have calculated that removing sorcerer pets from the game will result in a 30% performance increase!

snejremllov

Have you tried turning your monitor off and on again?

VinayExile

zaria wrote: »

Your graphic settings will help you if your have low frame rate, it does not affect others.
Yes turning off shadows and stuff would help you a lot.
Cyrodil and trials should have other graphic settings

However everything visual only affect your unit server don't have to do anything than send their outfit data and its part of the package as in race and class.

Removing npc would let you solo keeps. and in practice disable resources as they would not be defended.

The real killer on server performance I believe is all the AoE, then two large groups clashes its lots of AoE around and all that need to be calculated for all players affected so if two 24 man ball groups clashes lots of AoE effects up.

Server performance is best measured then not in combat, if you get random load screen alone its an server issue.
same with low frame rate here.
To test your system go to Alik'r desert during prime time, note your performance alone, now go up to an dolmen zerg, do not engage, just observe and move around, the added lag is client side and will be the same in an huge pvp fight.

Do not play on an potato, drop your setting before enter cyrodil if you do.

I dont play on a potato, but if there are 50 players fighting at a keep and 30 if those 50 playing on a potato it will impact lagg

VinayExile

SirAndy wrote: »

VinayExile wrote: »

I've never played quake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE5b_cTZzBw

Well that's kind of an overstatement then lol.
Everyone who plays cyro already plays on lowest setting.
Even me and I'm on a high spec rig.
It dousnt matter, the problem is on the server and since zos obviously isnt ever going to change the server or engine this might be a good way to fix it.

VinayExile

snejremllov wrote: »

Have you tried turning your monitor off and on again?

Yea I also tried the block dodge roll sprint thing, didnt work either

zaria

VinayExile wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Your graphic settings will help you if your have low frame rate, it does not affect others.
Yes turning off shadows and stuff would help you a lot.
Cyrodil and trials should have other graphic settings

However everything visual only affect your unit server don't have to do anything than send their outfit data and its part of the package as in race and class.

Removing npc would let you solo keeps. and in practice disable resources as they would not be defended.

The real killer on server performance I believe is all the AoE, then two large groups clashes its lots of AoE around and all that need to be calculated for all players affected so if two 24 man ball groups clashes lots of AoE effects up.

Server performance is best measured then not in combat, if you get random load screen alone its an server issue.
same with low frame rate here.
To test your system go to Alik'r desert during prime time, note your performance alone, now go up to an dolmen zerg, do not engage, just observe and move around, the added lag is client side and will be the same in an huge pvp fight.

Do not play on an potato, drop your setting before enter cyrodil if you do.

I dont play on a potato, but if there are 50 players fighting at a keep and 30 if those 50 playing on a potato it will impact lagg

How?
Server don't wait for client to render stuff.

SirAndy

VinayExile wrote: »

I dont play on a potato, but if there are 50 players fighting at a keep and 30 if those 50 playing on a potato it will impact lagg

In a perfect world, ZOS would have implemented UDP based client/server communication with server-side prediction which would completely negate any effect other players laggy internet connections may have on your gameplay.

Meaning, if implemented correctly, your gameplay would no get laggy just because some of the other players in your view have laggy connections.

One of the many things ZOS didn't get right ...

VinayExile

zaria wrote: »

VinayExile wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Your graphic settings will help you if your have low frame rate, it does not affect others.
Yes turning off shadows and stuff would help you a lot.
Cyrodil and trials should have other graphic settings

However everything visual only affect your unit server don't have to do anything than send their outfit data and its part of the package as in race and class.

Removing npc would let you solo keeps. and in practice disable resources as they would not be defended.

The real killer on server performance I believe is all the AoE, then two large groups clashes its lots of AoE around and all that need to be calculated for all players affected so if two 24 man ball groups clashes lots of AoE effects up.

Server performance is best measured then not in combat, if you get random load screen alone its an server issue.
same with low frame rate here.
To test your system go to Alik'r desert during prime time, note your performance alone, now go up to an dolmen zerg, do not engage, just observe and move around, the added lag is client side and will be the same in an huge pvp fight.

Do not play on an potato, drop your setting before enter cyrodil if you do.

I dont play on a potato, but if there are 50 players fighting at a keep and 30 if those 50 playing on a potato it will impact lagg

How?
Server don't wait for client to render stuff.

no but how often i see someone teleporting around or just lagging whilst im fine explains alot, it also happens often that NPC's or even players are out of your range because they are lagging

jcm2606

VinayExile wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

VinayExile wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Your graphic settings will help you if your have low frame rate, it does not affect others.
Yes turning off shadows and stuff would help you a lot.
Cyrodil and trials should have other graphic settings

However everything visual only affect your unit server don't have to do anything than send their outfit data and its part of the package as in race and class.

Removing npc would let you solo keeps. and in practice disable resources as they would not be defended.

The real killer on server performance I believe is all the AoE, then two large groups clashes its lots of AoE around and all that need to be calculated for all players affected so if two 24 man ball groups clashes lots of AoE effects up.

Server performance is best measured then not in combat, if you get random load screen alone its an server issue.
same with low frame rate here.
To test your system go to Alik'r desert during prime time, note your performance alone, now go up to an dolmen zerg, do not engage, just observe and move around, the added lag is client side and will be the same in an huge pvp fight.

Do not play on an potato, drop your setting before enter cyrodil if you do.

I dont play on a potato, but if there are 50 players fighting at a keep and 30 if those 50 playing on a potato it will impact lagg

How?
Server don't wait for client to render stuff.

no but how often i see someone teleporting around or just lagging whilst im fine explains alot, it also happens often that NPC's or even players are out of your range because they are lagging

That has nothing to do with their client performance. Don't get me wrong, client performance can definitely impact client-server communication, but it wouldn't be anywhere near that bad.

If we assume a player has about 15 FPS (fair assumption), and if we assume the client is 100% single threaded (as in everything is running in a single "loop"), then the client is being updated globally every 66 milliseconds, (or every 1/15th of a second). Assuming we're in a perfect world with absolutely zero latency/ping (so communication between the client and server happens instantly), that would mean that the server is receiving updates about the player every 66 milliseconds, or every 1/15th of a second. If they're moving, it would look exactly as if they and only they were being rendered at 15 FPS, because that's how fast they're communicating with the server.

We don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world where there is network latency, we live in a world where there is a delay between when you send a message to the server, and when the server receives that message. We also live in a world where this is constantly changing as the network changes (traffic congestion, individual nodes slowing down, damaged lines between nodes, etc), and we also live in a world where two people can live next to each other, and have wildly different connections to the same server.

What you saw was not unstable client performance, but an unstable connection to the servers.

If that player was the only player lagging, then their connection was dying.

If everybody else but you were lagging, then your connection was dying.

ESO's client, for the most part, allows you to do certain actions in the middle of a lag spike. You can walk around, and even sprint for a second or two, but anything that would require communication with the server, such as staying in sprint or using skills, won't work in a lag spike.

I've got a horrible connection to the servers, to the point where if I play in Vivec, my ping literally jumps up to 30k+ milliseconds, or 30+ seconds. I can freely walk around, while everybody else is frozen in time, until the client kicks me back to the main menu because it lost connection to the servers. While I'm doing that, my FPS has actually improved because my client isn't having to render effects and such in, which leads me into your OP,

VinayExile wrote: »

1. disable all skins/mount skins/outfits etc.
2. disable all character hairstyles/jewelry/body markings etc
3. disable CP
4. disable all allied effects
5. disable Siege effects
6. Remove all npc's from cyrodill
7. remove all post-processing effects
8. Limit view distance to 30 for everyone
9. limit server load by disabling any server information loader ( for example, guildsearch/guildstoresearch inventory search etc )
10. limit or disable Directx3d
11. limit moving shadows
12. disable all poisons/weapon enchants in pvp ( you could add maybe 1 or 2 poisons only usable in pvp to remove server load for 100 different ones )
13. Remove all weapons traits and armor traits in pvp besides impenetrable and make impenetrable only usably in pvp
14. remove weapon and gear appearance and make 1 biased outfit for light heavy and medium armor that everyone has.
15. disable ALL item sets in pvp, make a new pile of gear sets intentionally designed for PvP alone, gear sets without timed procs or premade set proc chances that may or may not proc, the amount of stress relieved from the server loosing all these calculations will be IMMENSE. ( i mean make sets with a buff or a stat that is on 100% of the time so the server doesn't have to keep track of these procs all the time )
16. make 1 type of CC animation , stun,root,slow not 10 like now.
17. disable different movement speeds, only 1 and not stackable.

A few of these are good, but most of these are only going to help client performance, which isn't really the problem. Also changed your list to be numbered, to make it easier to read mine.

1. Disabling skins, mounts, outfits, etc might only help a teeny tiny bit. It might help server performance slightly, like a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent, because it's a tiny bit less data to send to the clients. It probably won't help client performance, since the client is still having to render something in for whatever it is.
2. Same thing as skins, mounts, outfits, etc. Hairstyles and bodymarkings, even removing them, would be on the same system, so the client would still have to do the work, anyways.
3. This might help the servers since it is less calculations having to be done, but I do remember Zenimax saying that it didn't help as much as people thought it would.
4. Disable the visual effects, or the actual effects of the skills themselves? Visual effects can already be disabled through an option, and I believe they default to off, even on console. Actual effects of the skills themselves, no, because that's taking away from the gameplay.
5. As above, no, taking away from the gameplay.
6. This could actually help, but it'd have to be balanced carefully, because the NPC's do serve a purpose.
7. Only helps client performance, which isn't the problem.
8. Again, only helps client performance. PC can also already do this automatically via addons, Votan's Adaptive Settings dynamically changes the draw distance of multiple things depending on the FPS, and it doesn't help that much in Cyrodiil.
9. I don't think things like guild search and guild store search are a constant drain on performance. I'd imagine they're set up almost like a service tool, where they're called upon when needed.
10. Disabling DirectX/3D makes literally zero sense, because DirectX/3D is the graphics API reponsible for literally drawing everything you see to the screen. Without it, you're either using a software renderer (which, for a full sized game, wouldn't result in frames-per-second, rather seconds-per-frame), or you're using text. ESO is not a text-based MMORPG, if one even exists.
11. See skins, mounts, outfits, etc.
12. Again, no, taking away from the gameplay.
13. No, taking away from gameplay.
14. See skins, mounts, outfits, etc.
15. No, taking away from the gameplay, x1000.
16. See skins, mounts, outfits, etc.
17. Taking away from the gameplay

zyk

Client performance is an issue for many players.

Not everyone sees the world the same way. Most people are fine with 30 FPS in games, for example. Others, particularly competitive PC gamers, need a solid 60+; Some would say 120. Everyone is correct because we all have different tolerances.

With that said, Average Framerate is a poor measure because due to the way it is calculated it does not capture microstutter that may have significant impacts on gameplay. What you actually want are consistent Frame Times that do not ever exceed certain thresholds.

It is possible to have erratic and problematic Frame Times despite a high Average FPS.

When I'm gaming and "in the zone", I become hyper-aware of stutter. It affects my gaming performance greatly. Regardless of how much RAM one has (I have 24GB on this system) ESO will not use most of it and will continuously manage assets in the background. This can be felt in Cyrodiil when a zerg arrives or departs, or even a single player with a lot of assets one does not already have in memory that require processing.

It is normal for there to be constant asset management that causes stutter in keep fights. Again, you might not see the stutter reflected in the FPS indicator, but it can be agonizing -- especially on top of all of the other performance issues.

In casual games, performance matters less. But in games involving PVP, smooth performance is essential. It would make a huge difference to me if we could play PVP with a reduced style/accessory processing footprint.

I don't care what eyelashes or nose rings or super special rng crate pet my opponents might be using. Smooth gameplay is way more important than that.

Would it really be such a terrible thing if we were limited to horses in Cyrodiil? That approaching zerg might have 50 different sets of mount art assets to load and process -- and perform cleanup if memory is constrained.

ESO was actually designed to have good Frame Time performance and did until the Outfit system was introduced because that increased style diversity greatly; particularly newer, more detailed styles. This, in turn, means more processing which can cause stutter.

Ackwalan

So you want PvP to become a pillow fight. Sure, at least it would be a lag free (doubtful) pillow fight.

Mayrael

Actually your suggestions are blind guessing. If you want to solve a problem you need to find the cause first. Your suggestions are missed because what causes lag the most are ball groups - not intentionally but because of how game engine works. Each AoE skill used by or against them causes exponential growth of calculations. When we have few ball groups on there is also big lag increase. If things you mentioned would be the cause of lag, we would have big delays all the time, but somehow we can experience them mostly when ball groups are on. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame ball groups, that's just the sad truth.

idk

Zacuel wrote: »

I can't tell if this is for serious or not.

I questioned this as well. OP does not want us to see where siege are hitting since all siege effects are to be removed.

OP also does get that Zos has specifically said they want things to work in PvE like they work in PvP. Their request that poisons and enchants be disabled clearly shows a lack of knowledge of what Zos actually wants.

Basically the suggestion in it's entirety would make PvP rather silly looking and really fails to get to the real issue with server lag. It is getting into local computations as well and we all should not be punished because things to not work to OP's liking on PS4.

zaria

zyk wrote: »

Client performance is an issue for many players.

Not everyone sees the world the same way. Most people are fine with 30 FPS in games, for example. Others, particularly competitive PC gamers, need a solid 60+; Some would say 120. Everyone is correct because we all have different tolerances.

With that said, Average Framerate is a poor measure because due to the way it is calculated it does not capture microstutter that may have significant impacts on gameplay. What you actually want are consistent Frame Times that do not ever exceed certain thresholds.

It is possible to have erratic and problematic Frame Times despite a high Average FPS.

When I'm gaming and "in the zone", I become hyper-aware of stutter. It affects my gaming performance greatly. Regardless of how much RAM one has (I have 24GB on this system) ESO will not use most of it and will continuously manage assets in the background. This can be felt in Cyrodiil when a zerg arrives or departs, or even a single player with a lot of assets one does not already have in memory that require processing.

It is normal for there to be constant asset management that causes stutter in keep fights. Again, you might not see the stutter reflected in the FPS indicator, but it can be agonizing -- especially on top of all of the other performance issues.

In casual games, performance matters less. But in games involving PVP, smooth performance is essential. It would make a huge difference to me if we could play PVP with a reduced style/accessory processing footprint.

I don't care what eyelashes or nose rings or super special rng crate pet my opponents might be using. Smooth gameplay is way more important than that.

Would it really be such a terrible thing if we were limited to horses in Cyrodiil? That approaching zerg might have 50 different sets of mount art assets to load and process -- and perform cleanup if memory is constrained.

ESO was actually designed to have good Frame Time performance and did until the Outfit system was introduced because that increased style diversity greatly; particularly newer, more detailed styles. This, in turn, means more processing which can cause stutter.

Again this is client issues, and yes having separate graphic settings for Cyrodila and trials would probably solve lots of problems. This would probably be easiest on console as ZoS could simply do it them self. On PC it would require separate settings, probably with an smart auto adjust who could be overridden.

You also have unnecessarily processes like the guild member list getting updated in background rather then you access it.

MentalxHammer

Please let us adjust our graphics on console. I do not need to see the grass blowing in the wind while I'm PKing.

VinayExile

Mayrael wrote: »

Actually your suggestions are blind guessing. If you want to solve a problem you need to find the cause first. Your suggestions are missed because what causes lag the most are ball groups - not intentionally but because of how game engine works. Each AoE skill used by or against them causes exponential growth of calculations. When we have few ball groups on there is also big lag increase. If things you mentioned would be the cause of lag, we would have big delays all the time, but somehow we can experience them mostly when ball groups are on. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame ball groups, that's just the sad truth.

No it's not just the ball groups themselves.
At 3 am in the morning there are no ballgroups around and yet you still get lagg
The problem is there are way way way to many variables added into the game, such as skins outfits traits items potions etc etc.
This makes every single person have so much going on during a fight that the servers have trouble keeping up.

You can notice this very well when you have a very long 1v1 or 2v2.
No one around in alikr or wherever you want and the longer the fight lasts the more MS and fps drops you will experience.

The aoe skills are not the problem, the variable load for each and every skill and item proc calculation the server has to keep up with during a fight is the problem.