Please fix Uppercut and its morphs

Parobro

I had an argument with a friend and he found my idea was kinda good.

so since uppercut and its morphs lagg tremendously in cyrodiil and are really unreliable to cast on a fast moving target, while also being able to easily be blocked/ shielded/ dodged (not only by rolldodge also by moving thru the target) i would remove the casttime by nerfing the skills dmg down to the one from heroic slash or reverb for example, it should still stun tho.

i see it as opening a stun on a class that doesnt need to use reverb (appling major defile) and are limited to a kinda annoying playstyle since 90% of the dudes in pvp use defile and bleed stacking builds in a tank meta, so give us a tool to make more dmg reliably and give classes like stamsorc, stamdk, stamwarden a great spammable that does not require you to play snb and snb only.

i would love to see discussions about that topic and pls vote for it here: https://www.strawpoll.me/17982877/r

thanks in advance.

cheers

bantad87

Agree, this skill has been a major headache for my stamsorc. It's the only spammable on the 2-h worth anything, but it's also useless in PvP if your opponent has 1/10th of a brain.

Parobro

bantad87 wrote: »

Agree, this skill has been a major headache for my stamsorc. It's the only spammable on the 2-h worth anything, but it's also useless in PvP if your opponent has 1/10th of a brain.

exactly, just imagine if u do a bit less damage but can stun your target i.e.: magsorcs, reliable, their shield wouldnt be as annoying as it is now with their 30k resistance -.-

and the only solution right now is reverb to drain their stam and give them defile, like nice fast pacing combat playstyle isn it?

Cerra

it's almost as if it's designed to be used right after a stun...

sionIV

Cerra wrote: »

it's almost as if it's designed to be used right after a stun...

It's almost like it has a bad design...

bantad87

Cerra wrote: »

it's almost as if it's designed to be used right after a stun...

You're right, a skill that causes a stun was designed to be used after a stun. Your logic is astounding.

Hyzock

Terrible idea, this would just remove the dizzying swing playstyle as we know it and turn dizzying swing into a worse version of reverb if you want to give it the same damage as reverb.

This is what i commented on another post and also kinda applies to this

Hyzock wrote: »

Making the cast time lower than exactly 1 second would actually be a nerf because the cast time and the global cooldown of abilities are exactly 1 second. For example, reducing the cast time to 0.7s would mean you still have to wait 0.3s before using your next ability. This means that there would be no dps increase. It would make the ability slightly easier to land in pvp but it would also give your opponent 0.3s to react after getting hit with it. IMO the only simple way to buff dizzying swing is a damage increase but that would solve far from all the dizzying swing issues. What would make dizzying swing really shine is a shift in the pvp meta towards less tanky builds because the playstyle revolves around 1 shots, and a change in the targeting system (which i doubt will ever happen) where tab-targeting system would consistently make you hit the tab-targeted player. The high risk of trying to land dizzying swing is pointless if you simply hit another target than intended.

Malamar1229

Imagine a game where you actually adjust skills to compensate for the games performance.

Parobro

another ieda i had with a friend would be making dizzy like a cone, so u can cast it regardless and it would hit just a single target int the cone and stun it/ knock it back, but then we have the cone problems right?

usmcjdking

Hyzock wrote: »

Terrible idea, this would just remove the dizzying swing playstyle as we know it and turn dizzying swing into a worse version of reverb if you want to give it the same damage as reverb.

This is what i commented on another post and also kinda applies to this

Hyzock wrote: »

Making the cast time lower than exactly 1 second would actually be a nerf because the cast time and the global cooldown of abilities are exactly 1 second. For example, reducing the cast time to 0.7s would mean you still have to wait 0.3s before using your next ability. This means that there would be no dps increase. It would make the ability slightly easier to land in pvp but it would also give your opponent 0.3s to react after getting hit with it. IMO the only simple way to buff dizzying swing is a damage increase but that would solve far from all the dizzying swing issues. What would make dizzying swing really shine is a shift in the pvp meta towards less tanky builds because the playstyle revolves around 1 shots, and a change in the targeting system (which i doubt will ever happen) where tab-targeting system would consistently make you hit the tab-targeted player. The high risk of trying to land dizzying swing is pointless if you simply hit another target than intended.

Alright.

No, that's not an actual nerf to DSwing because you don't conceptually understand what the GCD is.

LA -> Uppercut -> Bash takes about 1.7 second to fully resolve, in some cases more. That means 2 LA -> Uppercut -> bash take 3.4 second to resolve in their entirety. Which means in the period of 3 global cooldowns, I'm only getting off 2 Uppercuts. Add another and you get 3 uppercuts in 5 global cooldowns.

Parobro

exactly, it would make also the combat more actionbased and work agaisnt sorc and tanks better.

Davadin

are we even getting another patch before going live?

Parobro

im not sure, but since PS4 and Xbox get the patch at the 4th june i assume they kinda tweak stuff still in the enxt 2 weeks after release and this is also not the last patch forever, so i wish they would at least let it te tested what i brought up

Xogath

Let's be honest, DSwing was bound to be nerfed at some point because it offered high damage and TWO CCs.

Not just one, but two. Despite its cast time and the fact that it can be dodged/etc., it was insanely powerful. To be honest, I'd have been happy with the following outcome:

- Assume damage nerf has been reverted for now.

1. Dizzying Swing - retains cast time, loses one of the CCs.. take your pick. I vote for the knockback since that kind of thing is annoying to me as a melee character trying to stay in your face. Boom, done. High damage and a stun, if you can land it.
2. Wrecking Blow - remove the cast time, hit it with that 15% damage nerf to compensate. Buff the Empower from 40% to 50% or even 75%. It can now be properly weaved by Stamina classes that use it and quite frankly NEED a spammable, and the boosted Empower promotes and rewards this.

Instead of something sensible like this, though, it's now a total pile of garbage.

Parobro

Xogath wrote: »

Let's be honest, DSwing was bound to be nerfed at some point because it offered high damage and TWO CCs.

Not just one, but two. Despite its cast time and the fact that it can be dodged/etc., it was insanely powerful. To be honest, I'd have been happy with the following outcome:

- Assume damage nerf has been reverted for now.

1. Dizzying Swing - retains cast time, loses one of the CCs.. take your pick. I vote for the knockback since that kind of thing is annoying to me as a melee character trying to stay in your face. Boom, done. High damage and a stun, if you can land it.
2. Wrecking Blow - remove the cast time, hit it with that 15% damage nerf to compensate. Buff the Empower from 40% to 50% or even 75%. It can now be properly weaved by Stamina classes that use it and quite frankly NEED a spammable, and the boosted Empower promotes and rewards this.

Instead of something sensible like this, though, it's now a total pile of garbage.

good one!

Davadin

come use Carve with the rest of us.

Davadin

tested. in pve and a round of BG.

carve, nox breath, carve, nox breath, carve, nox breath, carve, nox breath, carve, nox breath..... reverse strike.

who needs Uppercut?

Parobro

Carve can be cleansed and is more expensive then uppercut isn’t it? Plus the cone is missing a lot of times

Beffagorn

Parobro wrote: »

Carve can be cleansed and is more expensive then uppercut isn’t it? Plus the cone is missing a lot of times

They cost the exact same, it can be cleansed and like 90% aoe cones it's buggy af, nothing new there. Alternating Obnoxious Breath and Carve seems to be the best rotation in pvp for now, if you're using a 2h as your main weapon.

2h is still bad compared to SnB or Dw, but it's a bit better than before imo even if Uppercut is dead.

Elwendryll

I use Wrecking Blow in pve, and you always hit as long as your target is in front of you when it lands. The issues with Uppercut and morphs are tied to lag. Like when you get stuck in the animation for several seconds. Abilities shouldn't be changed to account for the lag. They should make sure they work how they are supposed to work even in PvP environment. The changes should be transparent for us.

Davadin

Beffagorn wrote: »

Parobro wrote: »

Carve can be cleansed and is more expensive then uppercut isn’t it? Plus the cone is missing a lot of times

They cost the exact same, it can be cleansed and like 90% aoe cones it's buggy af, nothing new there. Alternating Obnoxious Breath and Carve seems to be the best rotation in pvp for now, if you're using a 2h as your main weapon.

2h is still bad compared to SnB or Dw, but it's a bit better than before imo even if Uppercut is dead.

yes cost the same, buggy? it's a cone vs lag thing, yes. and DoT? yes, can be cleansed, sure.

But boy they hit like a truck now. Spamming it feels like cheating in PvE. Almost took all the fun out of dungeon exploring or overland mob... two hits and u just walk away.

Parobro

I talk about pvp tho

Hyzock

usmcjdking wrote: »

Hyzock wrote: »

Terrible idea, this would just remove the dizzying swing playstyle as we know it and turn dizzying swing into a worse version of reverb if you want to give it the same damage as reverb.

This is what i commented on another post and also kinda applies to this

Hyzock wrote: »

Making the cast time lower than exactly 1 second would actually be a nerf because the cast time and the global cooldown of abilities are exactly 1 second. For example, reducing the cast time to 0.7s would mean you still have to wait 0.3s before using your next ability. This means that there would be no dps increase. It would make the ability slightly easier to land in pvp but it would also give your opponent 0.3s to react after getting hit with it. IMO the only simple way to buff dizzying swing is a damage increase but that would solve far from all the dizzying swing issues. What would make dizzying swing really shine is a shift in the pvp meta towards less tanky builds because the playstyle revolves around 1 shots, and a change in the targeting system (which i doubt will ever happen) where tab-targeting system would consistently make you hit the tab-targeted player. The high risk of trying to land dizzying swing is pointless if you simply hit another target than intended.

Alright.

No, that's not an actual nerf to DSwing because you don't conceptually understand what the GCD is.

LA -> Uppercut -> Bash takes about 1.7 second to fully resolve, in some cases more. That means 2 LA -> Uppercut -> bash take 3.4 second to resolve in their entirety. Which means in the period of 3 global cooldowns, I'm only getting off 2 Uppercuts. Add another and you get 3 uppercuts in 5 global cooldowns.

@usmcjdking

I know i'm basically necroing this thread but i just now saw this and had to respond. First of all, bash cancelling dizzying swing is bad in the first place because you can land a light/heavy attack + ability right after anyway. Bash cancelling is used because you're still in the global cd after an ability so you can't use another light/heavy or ability, which means that a bash is the only option you have for getting some extra dmg in. LA -> Uppercut -> Bash probably takes 1.7s but you should never do that in the first place because you can instantly start another LA -> Dizzying.

I've done some quick tests (the screenshot below), simply LA -> Dizzying spamming on a dummy and checking the timestamps of the hits. The lowest i got in between a Dizzying and a LA is 61ms and the lowest i got in between a LA and the start of a dizzying (keeping into account that the cast time is exactly 1s) is 59ms (this was all done with a ping of about 90-110).

So, because the minimum delay in between Dizzying hit and LA is around 60ms, a reduction in cast time would only be beneficial if the cast time got reduced to 940ms (which would barely make a difference). Anything lower than this would just increase the delay in between Dizzying hit and LA, which would make it a nerf instead of a buff.

So yeah i'm pretty sure i conceptually understand what a GCD is.

usmcjdking

@Hyzock

Thanks for the reply, any discourse is better than no discourse.

Bash cancelling DSwing was brought in to bring it straight in-line for maximum GCD performance in accordance with non-cast time skills. Whether bash is used is certain circumstances or not is of no consequence, the fact is that bash cancelling instant cast skills will net you greater damage ouputs per GCD than not. Removing bash cancelling from the balance theory discussions is how things like S&B primary in PVP begin to perform above the other weapons offensively in practice but not in theory.

You're a very quality player and I know that you know what you're doing. What I cannot understand is that your argument is reducing the cast time below one second results in a nerf. You average LA -> Dswing resolution time is 1.196 seconds which is much better than I'm capable of producing. A .3 second reduction in cast time would effectively give you a .1 second null time in the GCD upon which you have a few options.

1) Queue another skill with a .1 second GCD enforced cast delay.
2) Bash
3) Light attack (as light attacks are not governed by the GCD, only animation length)

Perhaps you are under the impression that LAs follow some GCD rule? Bloodmoon working is clear proof that LAs observe no achievable intra-skill cooldown.

Hyzock

@usmcjdking

IMO bash cancelling on 2h bar might only be worth it while executing, which is the reason why i don't include bashes when discussing dizzying swing, and it's definitely never worth it to bash right after a dizzying swing so i don't see the point in including it in balance discussions when it comes to this. And IMO any cast delay, even .1 second, is a nerf because it gives your opponent extra time to react. The dizzying swing playstyle is all about burst so that's why i really don't want any delays. Even reducing the cast time so it's worth it to bash cancel would spread your damage out over a larger time window which means more time to react, which is IMO a nerf.

jcm2606

To make Uppercut more reliable to land, its targeting really just needs to be overhauled such that an opponent sidestepping it doesn't immediately cancel it, as that's really the problem with it. PVP in this game naturally has a lot of movement, so players are going to be sidestepping it on complete accident, which, in combination with the lag, leads to it often cancelling itself unless you lead into it with some CC.

When somebody starts casting Uppercut, immediately switch its targeting to a conal AOE, where so long as the target is within that AOE, Uppercut will land. Have the character automatically turn within the AOE to visually face the opponent. This stops it from being cancelled when somebody sidesteps it, but in a way that still requires the user to track their opponent to keep it casting.

Honestly, I feel melee skills in general should work like this. Even instant cast skills often get cancelled when both you and the opponent are moving around a lot, which often happens in mobile fights. Maybe forego the conal AOE for instant cast skills, just have the character automatically turn to face the opponent; I hit the button, I paid the resources, the target is still in range, so the skill should land.

VaxtinTheWolf

You know when you are distracting many enemies from your allies and poking them all with your weapon? sometimes you queue the skill, and one of those enemies is currently jumping over your head. Your character automatically turns around and pokes them because of that tracking thing?

Make Uppercut do that.

Hyzock

The only targetting issue Dizzying Swing has is vs a tight group of opponents, but literally every single target ability has this issue. Idk where the "sidestepping" thing comes from. Dizzying Swing has 2 line of sight checks that can cancel the ability, when you first cast it and when it's about to land. You can literally start casting, walk through your opponent, do a quick 180 (if you're on pc ofc), and still land the ability. Maybe the sidestepping is an issue on console but it's definitely a l2p issue if you have issues landing Dizzying Swing vs 1 opponent. Against multiple it's entirely different of course but that's not a Dizzying Swing exclusive isue.