Do you think the devs even have a clue what they're doing with NB?

Jabassa

Recent NB changes (all of them) make no sense, not to mention that the class was fine prior and did not need any balance changes at all.

Video says it better than I can


https://youtu.be/8FcnE2BZDxg

TeIvanni

Inb4 locked thread.

Jabassa

All changes should be reverted and class should be left alone for now

TeIvanni wrote: »

Inb4 locked thread.

Something needs to be done to get their attention

Jabassa

All changes should be reverted and class should be left alone for now

Devs, when you see this, I want it to be known that I am in the camp that believes silence particularly on single target abilities has absolutely no place in this game. I don't want to see counter play to silence introduced, I believe silence needs to be removed out right

Gilvoth

Yes

i am more than convinced the developers know alot more about not only nightblades but the whole game far better then not only myself but also all the people on this forum.
they work on this game for a living, they study it day in and day out, they know about this game, not everything they do is going to show that but i can promise you that if you were inside with them you would be amazed at what we Dont know and how good those guys actually are.

danthemann5

Yes

Yes. One particular dev directly involved with the combat decision making process plays stamblade main. This is the driving force behind these NB changes. Do the math, they know EXACTLY what they are doing.

Sanguinor2

No

They really do their best to convince both the nightblade mains and the not nightblade mains that they do not know what to do. They are buffing stamblade further which arguably between stam and magblade doesnt need as much attention.

They are taking away stuff like the minor endurance but then give it back in another ability as a passive.

They replace minor berserk which already got compensated for with minor vulnerability with one of the strongest class mitigation tools in the game, which I dont think any stamblade main was asking for? Correct me if I am wrong with that one.

They say incap is overloaded but instead of doing something to make it less overloaded they actually add the single strongest debuff in the game you can have against any magicka build to it. They dont even investigate counterplay options for that prior to releasing it if Brians comment is anything to go by, so they effectively are not even thinking about the consequences of the changes they will be doing or at the very least imply that they do not do so for all changes they do.

They nerf the new snare removal to 2 seconds, keep shuffle as weak as it is and instead give nightblades a carbon copy of shuffle only in stronger that costs stam instead of mag and is not restricted to medium armor. Wouldnt medium armor stamblades be happier with a buffed shuffle?

They might know the math behind the game. But they apparently have no idea what their changes are doing in a real scenario that actually happens ingame, you know, what those changes are made for.

frostz417

No

Devs don’t even play their own game

Jabassa

All changes should be reverted and class should be left alone for now

Gilvoth wrote: »

i am more than convinced the developers know alot more about not only nightblades but the whole game far better then not only myself but also all the people on this forum.
they work on this game for a living, they study it day in and day out, they know about this game, not everything they do is going to show that but i can promise you that if you were inside with them you would be amazed at what we Dont know and how good those guys actually are.

Then explain to me all the contradictions on NB between week one and now? And how they don't see the blatantly obvious impact silence will have on PvP and not have a counter play ready to go along with it? Also, why exactly did NB need changes from wrathstone to begin with?

Pr0Skygon

Yes

I voted yes simply since I'm not a devs myself, and ZOS has actually made some really good changes.

But tbh, the new Incap change is pure nightmare fuel. I'm scared of whoever proposed this change, and also scared of whoever approved this change.

oxygen_thief

No

frostz417 wrote: »

Devs don’t even play their own game

of course they dont. they dont have time for such nonsense they need to spend millions of $. its not so easy as you may think.

echo2omega

Yes

yes.

They have a test server and

They are ...you know...

Testing...

zyk

No

It's not that the devs are stupid or don't know what they're doing. It's that the design process has been compromised.

ZOS is trying to balance the game for multiple modes, some of which are completely different. In particular, 12 player competitive PVE instanced Trials and open world AvA PVP featuring hundreds of players.

Unfortunately for AvA, it's not a development priority for ZOS. It has major issues that ZOS has practically ignored for years. So when it comes to balance changes, ZOS is constantly trying to find ways to adjust balance in PVP without affecting PVE trials.

I'm not defending ZOS as an entity, but rather the individual devs who can't choose what they work on or how their time is allocated. AvA changes seem thoughtless and rushed probably because they are rushed without time to vet them as dictated by their bosses.

The ironic side to all of this is that ZOS is constantly chasing money and while they may be pleased with the results, the huge money makers lately have been PVP games. ESO AvA was a special game and with proper attention could have been one of those massive hits. The greed of Zenimax has held them back IMO.

Roboplus

Apart from the silence, they're in a decent position. Great? Of course not. But once they drop the silence they'll be launchable changes.

The main problem NBs have now is the same problem Sorcs, Templars, and even Necros have in supportive positions (tank/healer). They have no unique buff/debuff. They have no irreplaceable effect that warrants their position in those spots (and that even a DPS can trigger if need be). There's no reason to have an NB tank. And while they are effective in the position (same way Necro are effective tanks), there's no reason to have a Templar healer.

As long as DKs can increase team damage and Wardens can increase team health (so the team can divert more stats toward damage) there's no group configuration that can't be made better by placing both in a tank or healing position, to the exception of everyone else.

But again, that's not an NB problem.

Gilvoth

Yes

Jabassa wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

i am more than convinced the developers know alot more about not only nightblades but the whole game far better then not only myself but also all the people on this forum.
they work on this game for a living, they study it day in and day out, they know about this game, not everything they do is going to show that but i can promise you that if you were inside with them you would be amazed at what we Dont know and how good those guys actually are.

Then explain to me all the contradictions on NB between week one and now? And how they don't see the blatantly obvious impact silence will have on PvP and not have a counter play ready to go along with it? Also, why exactly did NB need changes from wrathstone to begin with?

you should be asking that to the developers.

Canned_Apples

Yes

only ones that seem to be mad are those solo nbs that play 100% gank specs so, yes, the devs know what theyre doing.

Jabassa

All changes should be reverted and class should be left alone for now

zyk wrote: »

It's not that the devs are stupid or don't know what they're doing. It's that the design process has been compromised.

ZOS is trying to balance the game for multiple modes, some of which are completely different. In particular, 12 player competitive PVE instanced Trials and open world AvA PVP featuring hundreds of players.

Unfortunately for AvA, it's not a development priority for ZOS. It has major issues that ZOS has practically ignored for years. So when it comes to balance changes, ZOS is constantly trying to find ways to adjust balance in PVP without affecting PVE trials.

I'm not defending ZOS as an entity, but rather the individual devs who can't choose what they work on or how their time is allocated. AvA changes seem thoughtless and rushed probably because they are rushed without time to vet them as dictated by their bosses.

The ironic side to all of this is that ZOS is constantly chasing money and while they may be pleased with the results, the huge money makers lately have been PVP games. ESO AvA was a special game and with proper attention could have been one of those massive hits. The greed of Zenimax has held them back IMO.

This is what really blows my mind because PvP is the true endgame in MMOs. Particularly ones like ESO that don't have true progression systems like WoW.

Now why do I say this? Well the stories, npc personalities, and voice acting is all phenomenal but that's not endgame for PvE. We're talking trials. How do trials work? Well how well can you muscle memorize a rotation that is the exact same on repeat, and then it "oh he's at 50% everyone hold block!", back to muscle memory, " oh he's at 30% everyone stand on one foot and do the hokie pokie!", back to muscle memory, "oh he's at 20% spam your execute!"

The only things that make trials difficult *ONCE MECHANICS ARE UNDERSTOOD* is if you have incompetent or under geared players in group.

PvP is not memorizable, and always changes from encounter to encounter. It's the truest test of skill in this game and the only thing left once you've done everything else.

Jabassa

All changes should be reverted and class should be left alone for now

Canned_Apples wrote: »

only ones that seem to be mad are those solo nbs that play 100% gank specs so, yes, the devs know what theyre doing.

I don't really play NB even though I have a stam and a mag and I hate all these changes except cloak

Jabassa

All changes should be reverted and class should be left alone for now

Canned_Apples wrote: »

only ones that seem to be mad are those solo nbs that play 100% gank specs so, yes, the devs know what theyre doing.

Also silence is the best thing that could happen for gank builds

Tasear

Yes

It wasn't bad but only if looking at issue as subset. They simply didn't look at big picture in more ways then one here.

jcm2606

All changes should be reverted and class should be left alone for now

I think they do, for the most part, but they've done a terrible job at conveying their intentions. It's clear that their vision for NB has changed since the last round of class balance changes, as they're trading one aspect of the class (damage) for another (survival), but outside of that ESO Live, I can't think of any indication of this shift in vision.

The reason why I say to revert the whole class, though, is because a lot of these changes clearly weren't thought through properly.

The extra mitigation offered by Grim Focus is great and all, but then you have the damage proc which is a core aspect of NB's burst, which if used resets the mitigation. It's almost like the skill is playing tug-o-war with itself, where trying to take advantage of one aspect of the skill screws the other. It just doesn't make sense.

(If we think about something other than NB for a second, DK suffers the same problem with their ultimates. They lack an execute which pushes them towards timing their ultimates for maximum burst potential, but doing so punishes them because they're essentially wasting resources. This tug-o-war behaviour is in more places than just this new Grim Focus, and I think it highlights how little thought Zenimax puts into the high level functionality of the classes and combat system.)

The Surprise Attack change is just the same. They took Major Fracture off of Surprise Attack to push NB's into using Mark Target for their resistance debuffs, but they really haven't made Mark Target worth sacrificing a slot for -- no, making it free doesn't count. Removing an alternative to a terrible skill doesn't make the terrible skill any less terrible. (Again, this crops up in more places than just Surprise Attack and Mark Target.)

In these questionable changes, though, are some good ones. The new fear might arguably be a bit too strong with it now affecting 6 targets, but the fact that targets no longer run in a random direction is a huge benefit for both the targets and the caster. The new Blur morph providing snare immunity offers a straight up better alternative to Shuffle, and gives magblade something they desperately needed, especially now that Race Against Time was nerfed. If it were up to me, these would stay, maybe with a little adjustment to fear.

At the least Incap needs to be reverted, because it's a hot mess at the moment, but honestly, the whole class should be reverted because these changes just don't make much sense.

Jabassa

All changes should be reverted and class should be left alone for now

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I voted yes simply since I'm not a devs myself, and ZOS has actually made some really good changes.

But tbh, the new Incap change is pure nightmare fuel. I'm scared of whoever proposed this change, and also scared of whoever approved this change.

It scares me that whoever greenlighted this is on the dev team as well. That's a straight up Todd Howard move and we don't need that in ESO

Jabassa

All changes should be reverted and class should be left alone for now

Roboplus wrote: »

Apart from the silence, they're in a decent position. Great? Of course not. But once they drop the silence they'll be launchable changes.

The main problem NBs have now is the same problem Sorcs, Templars, and even Necros have in supportive positions (tank/healer). They have no unique buff/debuff. They have no irreplaceable effect that warrants their position in those spots (and that even a DPS can trigger if need be). There's no reason to have an NB tank. And while they are effective in the position (same way Necro are effective tanks), there's no reason to have a Templar healer.

As long as DKs can increase team damage and Wardens can increase team health (so the team can divert more stats toward damage) there's no group configuration that can't be made better by placing both in a tank or healing position, to the exception of everyone else.

But again, that's not an NB problem.

They're in a horrible position for PvP though.

Surprise attack (the skill that actually fits the class) is gutted, pigeonholing you into using mark target which gives away your next move (not very stealthy at all)

Grim focus is now gutted of its buff, which isn't the end of the world but it hinders the burst of what's supposed to be one of the burstiest classes in the game

I like the cloak change

And then there's incap... "major defile 30% heal reduction is too strong! So let's give it the strongest debuff in the game so now it gives 100% self heal reduction and stops you from using ANY magicka abilities" - and then there's the gank aspect of this "snipe is too strong and is being abused (legitimate issue) so let's nerf that, but now we'll turn incap into one of the most powerful gank tools the game has ever seen!"

Jabassa

All changes should be reverted and class should be left alone for now

jcm2606 wrote: »

I think they do, for the most part, but they've done a terrible job at conveying their intentions. It's clear that their vision for NB has changed since the last round of class balance changes, as they're trading one aspect of the class (damage) for another (survival), but outside of that ESO Live, I can't think of any indication of this shift in vision.

The reason why I say to revert the whole class, though, is because a lot of these changes clearly weren't thought through properly.

The extra mitigation offered by Grim Focus is great and all, but then you have the damage proc which is a core aspect of NB's burst, which if used resets the mitigation. It's almost like the skill is playing tug-o-war with itself, where trying to take advantage of one aspect of the skill screws the other. It just doesn't make sense.

(If we think about something other than NB for a second, DK suffers the same problem with their ultimates. They lack an execute which pushes them towards timing their ultimates for maximum burst potential, but doing so punishes them because they're essentially wasting resources. This tug-o-war behaviour is in more places than just this new Grim Focus, and I think it highlights how little thought Zenimax puts into the high level functionality of the classes and combat system.)

The Surprise Attack change is just the same. They took Major Fracture off of Surprise Attack to push NB's into using Mark Target for their resistance debuffs, but they really haven't made Mark Target worth sacrificing a slot for -- no, making it free doesn't count. Removing an alternative to a terrible skill doesn't make the terrible skill any less terrible. (Again, this crops up in more places than just Surprise Attack and Mark Target.)

In these questionable changes, though, are some good ones. The new fear might arguably be a bit too strong with it now affecting 6 targets, but the fact that targets no longer run in a random direction is a huge benefit for both the targets and the caster. The new Blur morph providing snare immunity offers a straight up better alternative to Shuffle, and gives magblade something they desperately needed, especially now that Race Against Time was nerfed. If it were up to me, these would stay, maybe with a little adjustment to fear.

At the least Incap needs to be reverted, because it's a hot mess at the moment, but honestly, the whole class should be reverted because these changes just don't make much sense.

Very well said and spot on. Changing up the class is all fine and dandy, but considerably more thought needs to be put into it before it hits live

Chelo

No

Gilvoth wrote: »

i am more than convinced the developers know alot more about not only nightblades but the whole game far better then not only myself but also all the people on this forum.
they work on this game for a living, they study it day in and day out, they know about this game, not everything they do is going to show that but i can promise you that if you were inside with them you would be amazed at what we Dont know and how good those guys actually are.

Just because you are a Mechanic, doesn't mean you are an expert Driver...

HourEnemy

All changes should be reverted and class should be left alone for now

Why do they have to even change anything so drastically for Nightblade? It feels fine to me as it is.

If PvP balance is the concern, then they should really be looking at the stam Warden + spin to win...

I honestly wish they'd leave things alone or make minor changes. What is actually so unbalanced about the current incap?

I also really do not understand the grim focus and surprise attack changes.

If it was up to me, I'd leave everything as is and if it's really the feeling that nightblades are overpowered, then add things to other classes.

Chelo

No

Canned_Apples wrote: »

only ones that seem to be mad are those solo nbs that play 100% gank specs so, yes, the devs know what theyre doing.

Believe me, they don't know what they are doing. This happens in every industry, most of the time, the creators hire testers to test their creations because they don't know how to use/test their own creations...

Imagine engineering vehicles for example. Do you really think every engineer out there is an expert Car Driver? They have to hire professional Drivers to test their vehicles, and they proceed to adjust the Car based on the feedback from the Drivers...

It's exactly the same here, just because they know programming and game design, doesn't mean they actually play the game, doesn't even mean they are any good at this anyway. I bet you my account that the top 5% Elitist Min/Max Competitive Players, are better at playing this game than their own Devs.

What's happening right now, is that Devs are experimenting with their creation without a clear view of what/how they expect to achieve.

Drdeath20

No

ZoS have proven, multiple times, that they really dont know whats preferable and whats powerful when it comes to pvp

Gilvoth

Yes

Chelo wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

only ones that seem to be mad are those solo nbs that play 100% gank specs so, yes, the devs know what theyre doing.

Believe me, they don't know what they are doing. This happens in every industry, most of the time, the creators hire testers to test their creations because they don't know how to use/test their own creations...

Imagine engineering vehicles for example. Do you really think every engineer out there is an expert Car Driver? They have to hire professional Drivers to test their vehicles, and they proceed to adjust the Car based on the feedback from the Drivers...

It's exactly the same here, just because they know programming and game design, doesn't mean they actually play the game, doesn't even mean they are any good at this anyway. I bet you my account that the top 5% Elitist Min/Max Competitive Players, are better at playing this game than their own Devs.

What's happening right now, is that Devs are experimenting with their creation without a clear view of what/how they expect to achieve.

there is some truth to what you are saying but you are speculating on most of it, because as far as i can see based on your comments and your forum account home page it looks as if you are not on that dev team, and we have no idea how much they do play, in addition there have been changes in staff and some of them like Gillium the rogue has extensive playtime and he is now a dev.
altho that will change because he is of the older play group he still played for several years.'
several times throughout the years we have seen them playing and alot of them including Brian Wheeler have been here now in their field going on since long long before beta and even alpha and some even earlier.
and we have seen them play on videos and livestreams including Rich Lambert even once said he goes home and play for a few hours every night.
in addition we can only assume how they play, do they play like we do? do they pvp like we do?
if so how often? how much per day / week
is it on private servers? do they play with us daily in the campaigns in pvp? in Trials and just hang out in towns and sometimes zone chat?

several times they have said throughout the years "we will see you ingame"
the last live stream Rich Lambert even said that when he loggs in to play that people spam him with whispers about things that bother them about the game. so we know theres some serious playtime happening there to be able have that kind of interaction.
when they claim they will see us ingame does that mean they are on characters we play with daily and we dont even realize those guys are actually devs?

i stand by my earlier comment that bares repeating
i am convinced the developers know alot more about not only nightblades but the whole game far better then not only myself but also all the people on this forum.
they work on this game for a living, they study it day in and day out, they know about this game, not everything they do is going to show that but i can promise you that if you were inside with them you would be amazed at what we Dont know and how good those guys actually are.
i still support that belief.

fred4

No

After this latest move, I have no idea what their intentions are and I cannot believe that they do themselves. A guildmate thought that there is a different team working on nightblade every week.

I think they have gone way overboard with the changes and that the Incap changes should be reverted to live. I presume the idea was to tone down stamblade's gank potential. Did anyone notice that stamblades used to only slot Poison Injection, but nowadays many melee players also slot Snipe? ZOS have:

Nerfed Snipe
Taken away the Major Fracture from Surprise Attack

IMO these two things were enough to tone down stamblade. You could have left it at that, then suck it and see. The following change was IMO not warranted:

The Minor Vulnerability buff to Ambush / Lotus Fan

Explanation: I play a Zaan + Caluurion melee magblade ganker. The above is a buff to my playstyle. While that playstyle doesn't perform very well in duels, nor in BGs, you can't balance purely for duels and BGs. It is strong in open world. It is strong against inexperienced players, other (squishy) nightblades, in open fields where other classes would struggle to 1vX, and against players who compromised their 1v1 capabilities in favor of group play. Many players claim melee magblade is not viable, because you tend to be very squishy and, therefore, brawling is a death sentence. They are very, very wrong. The playstyle and the way to build just appear to be sufficiently alien, compared to a ranged magblade, that they haven't figured it out. I also think they give too much weight to 1v1 (duels) and that's not warranted. You can't have everything and that's OK.

When you think about stamblade, what has the shifting from Fracture on Surprise Attack to Vulnerability on Ambush done? Zilch. Those changes basically cancel each other out.

People who argue that Incap Strike is too cheap and too overloaded with buffs are, IMO, missing the big picture. Other classes either have more DOTs (DK) or they have one or more delayed burst skills that stack with another attack in the same GCD (magsorc, templar, warden). Those skills are not ultimates. Warden has burst every 3 seconds, sorc every 3.5, templar every 6. Nightblade, by contrast, relies on it's cheap ultimate to burst you within silimar time frames. Once you consider that Incap replaces another class's delayed, stacked-in-one-GCD burst skill AND their ultimate, you're hopefully beginning to understand why it needs to be so cheap and overloaded. You can quibble about it's exact strength, but you can't argue with the basic principle unless you want to totally dismantle how nightblade plays.

I love nightblade. I love the directness of it. I love that, Assassin's Will aside, I have instant burst and can, therefore, better react to opportunities on the battlefield. It's the very nature of nightblades, though, their stealth and their instant burst potential, that makes them so hated. You want to address that, you'd have to dismantle the class altogether. I would be against that. I think the stealth is a very important tool for anyone wanting to play solo and that the game should offer that option.

I think nightblades and magsorcs get flak, because their burst is particularly effective in taking out inexperienced players. On the other hand, nightblade snipers must be the #1 playstyle with which such players rack up kills themselves. Fine-tuning the balance is fine. Detuning stamblades to where they are not quite at the top in duels is fine, since they compensate with so much open world potential. You can quibble about the exact balance, but, as usual, ZOS have brought the sledgehammer and are acting like a bull in a china shop.

fred4

No

Gilvoth wrote: »

and some of them like Gillium the rogue has extensive playtime and he is now a dev.

That is genuinely one of the most baffling things about this. I can only presume that he is absent / on holidays, right now, or that Brian Wheeler's / someone else's ego is overriding what he has to say.

several times throughout the years we have seen them playing and alot of them including Brian Wheeler have been here now in their field going on since long long before beta and even alpha and some even earlier.
and we have seen them play on videos and livestreams including Rich Lambert even once said he goes home and play for a few hours every night.

I hate to admit it, but I have played several hours 7 days a week for 3 1/2 years, the majority of it PvP. I only see a few other dedicated players, or those who make a living from it on Twitch / YouTube, competing with that.