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Wrathstone Racial Changes, Flawed Mathematics, Misinformation, and Suggestions

HatchetHaro
HatchetHaro
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We've seen a month of PTS updates for Wrathstone, and I am quite looking forward to the new dungeons (both of which I have already cleared with my friends on hardmode). However, the main talking point of this upcoming update dropping on Monday are the highly-controversial changes to Racial Passives.

Here is the consolidated list of Racial Passive changes we are most likely going to be seeing this coming Monday, courtesy of @ATreeGnome : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460211/consolidated-list-of-racial-passives-v4-3-4/p1

I will be making analyses based on my own experience in end-game raiding. I will also draw upon results from my own testing on Magicka Templar, and @LiquidPony's testing on Stamina Sorcerer.

The Meta
Here is how the roles will change. Keep in mind, all of this analysis comes from the perspective of end-game PvEr.

PvE DPS
For Magicka, Altmer and Dunmer are at the top, and some of the raiders I've spoken to are interested in continuing to run Dunmer due to their vastly-superior Stamina pool with minimal Magicka DPS loss compared to Altmer. Bretons are right behind them when on blue bi-stat food, and are extremely close to them, and will even surpass them when using gold food on classes or rotations that are more Magicka-intensive, such as Solar Barrage Templars or Sorcerers in general. Khajiit are fourth in terms of DPS, though are still extremely close, with better sustain than Altmer and Dunmer as well. Argonians don't bring much of anything to the table with just a measly 1000 Magicka, and are at the bottom of the Magicka races in terms of DPS.

For Stamina, Orcs and Dunmer are at the top, with Dunmer sitting at a negligible DPS loss compared to Orcs. Khajiiti seem to be on par with Dunmer solo, though would fall ever so slightly behind when raid buffs are taken into account. Redguards and Bosmer are right behind them on blue bi-stat food on sustainable classes like Nightblades, and would surpass all of them when using gold food on classes or rotations that are more Stamina-intensive, such as Sorcerers. Imperials would be right behind those; they have decent Stamina sustain to be able to pull off Stamina DPS just enough to be viable, but not competitive. Nords are last, with only 1500 Stamina and no Stamina sustain to speak of.

PvE Tanking
In terms of group utility and taking Minor Heroism into account, Nords have the most group utility, being able to cast Warhorn every 60 seconds, with Imperials close behind, being able to cast Warhorn every 67 seconds. None of the other races give group utility bonuses. In the end, group utility is really what matters, since any race can tank effectively at end-game level.

In terms of ease-of-use, without caring about group utility, Imperials are at the top with a hefty increase to both their Health and Stamina stats, as well as a potent sustain stat that restores effective max 66.6 Stamina, Magicka, and Health per second, proccing every 5 seconds, as well as a full 3% ability cost reduction. Argonians, often touted as "the tanking race", is actually quite a ways behind, with a Magicka stat bonus that forces them to put more points into Stamina to retain the Stamina sustain from Orbs/Shards; their Resourceful passive can effectively restore 88 Stamina, Magicka, and Health to them every second, but with a cooldown of 45 seconds, much of that sustain is wasted most of the time, though can be boosted by using Infused Potion Speed glyphs. They are also able to heal themselves for a bit more than other races, though the amount is miniscule; most healing should come from the healers anyway. Nords and Redguards seem to be right behind Argonians, with Nord resistances making Major Ward and Major Resolve optional, and Redguard Stamina sustain (effective max 190 Stamina/s) being really good for some of the more Stamina-intensive stuff Tanks have to do such as dodge-rolling and blocking.

PvE Healing
Bretons, hands down. Compared to Live, where both Argonians and Bretons are on par with each other in terms of end-game healing, this upcoming update will see Breton sustain being buffed significantly while Argonians are nerfed. With the huge boost to their sustain, Bretons will be able to do so much more in terms of group utility, pumping out more Orbs, Shards, Combat Prayer, and raw heals. In the end, that is what really matters in the end-game.

Argonians, on the other hand, while shoehorned into the healing role with their 6% additional healing done, don't really bring much to the table in terms of group utility, and their 6% extra healing is not any significant amount, especially considering that Bretons are able to pack on more Spell Damage and therefore healing by replacing their typical Magicka Recovery glyphs with Spell Damage glyphs anyway, and also for the fact that healing too much does not do anything.

Altmer and Dunmer would have about the same amount of healing as Argonians, though without any Magicka sustain passives to speak of.

Khajiiti could make for decent healers as well with their decent amount of Magicka sustain.

PvP
This is going to be much more subjective, since I come from an extensive PvE background with much less experience in PvP. However, I do like to do Battlegrounds and often win, so I consider myself decent enough at PvP to make an educated opinion on the matter.

Khajiit are going to be extremely strong gankers; their Critical Damage passive gives them a significant amount of burst, and their tri-stat pools and sustain gives them a lot of utility to be able to survive, regen, and re-engage.

Imperials are going to be extremely strong tanks or DPS; they have significant amounts of extra Health and Stamina, and two great sustain passives that complement any Stamina PvP build extremely well.

Argonians are going to be decent for tanking, DPS, and healing in PvP. Their resourceful passive makes them decent at all three, but the situational nature of it makes them rather unpredictable, and the nerfs to them do make them less viable at PvP than they used to.

Redguards and Bosmer make for great Stamina builds, and Bretons make for great Magicka builds, simply due to their sheer amount of sustain in their dominant resource.

Analysis
Methodology
What these racial changes have done is that they have made certain races compatible with more roles. Khajiit are viable at Magicka DPS now in addition to their already-good Stamina DPS power, Dunmer are really good for Stamina DPS now in addition to their already-great Magicka DPS power, and Bretons are much better at Magicka DPS with their significant sustain boost which they can use on more expensive rotations or trade for more power. The overall power the single-stat races have are also increased, such as Altmer having much, much more Magicka DPS than before, and Orcs being the same way for Stamina. Even Imperials can now be viable as Stamina DDs.

However, the issue here is that with these buffs, certain races also fall by the wayside either due to the lack of buffs or straight-up nerfs.

Nords used to be decent at tanking and are now much better for it due to their group utility passive, but they are no better for DPS than they used to be. Argonians have been nerfed with no increase to any of their already-lacking DPS ability, currently shoehorned into a healer role that is going to be dominated by Bretons for Wrathstone, so they're really not a contender for any role at this point.

There are a few main flaws with ZOS's current methodology in terms of updating these racial passives in terms of balance.
1. The stats that are "mathematically balanced with set bonuses in terms of power" are not consistent with in-game stats.

Health values in set bonuses, enchantments, and attribute points are always 10% more than equivalent Stamina and Magicka values. What this means is that races with the upcoming Health bonuses are going to be unfairly shafted in terms of "mathematical power" in relation to set bonuses. Case in point, an Altmer (2000 Magicka) can try to equalize their Health value to that of an Argonian (1000 Magicka and 1000 Health) by putting more points into Health or using Health glyphs; what this comes down to is that when equalized, the Altmer would have 1000 Magicka and 1100 Health, or 1091 Magicka and 1000 Health, both numbers higher than what the Argonian has.

There's also the fact that certain stats are more useful and flexible than others. Altmer Spell Damage can affect their Healing in addition to their Damage, but Argonian Healing Done does not affect their damage at all. These types of bonuses are simply just unfair because the races that have those are shoehorned into specific roles without being able to trade any of those stats for the DPS role.

2. The failure to recognize that the PvE DPS role is much more affected by stats than the other roles.

PvE Tanking, Healing, and PvP are all reactive roles; the effectiveness of these roles are much more dependent on player skill than stats. For example, a great player can tank on an Altmer just as effectively as they can on an Argonian, complete with Engulfing Flames and Alkosh uptimes. Case in point, I know of quite a few great tanks that do not run "meta" races anyway; you guys know Woeler, who runs a Khajiit tank, I know of a pal who runs a Bosmer tank and is great at it, one of my raid lead runs a Nord already and is amazing at it, and I know of one more top-tier tank who runs an Orc and scorepushes trials regularly. There's also the point where tanks make use of all three resources, so any racial passive with Health, Stamina, or Magicka isn't wasted, and said race can spec more into whatever stats they are lacking in; for example, a Redguard can spec more into Health to be more comparable to a Nord.

Healing is a role that doesn't need to hit its ceiling all of the time; it would either be too much heals which become wasted, or too many orbs being thrown out that no one is taking them. In fact, I also regularly run with a great healer in one of my groups, and she runs an Orc.

PvP is a similar story; as long as you know the limitations and strengths of your race, you can tweak your gear and strategy accordingly, and wouldn't lose out on much compared to other races since PvP roles require both Health and your main resource. Not to mention, of course, that player skill is much higher of a factor here anyway.

Basically, these roles don't really have an effectiveness ceiling.

The same can not be said for PvE DPS: this role has an actual damage ceiling affected by their stats. For example, a player, regardless of skill, will always deal more damage on a Dunmer compared to a Nord. Raiders also don't spec any points or glyphs into Health, relying solely on the Health from their food to stay alive, with gold food being the most efficient in terms of stats that they grant; so for a Nord, they can't exactly spec whatever Health they have into Stamina to more closely match a Redguard.

All this gives races with more Stamina/Magicka bonuses more of an advantage compared to those with Health bonuses in terms of DPS, while those with Health bonuses don't really gain the same advantage for the other roles compared to DPS.

3. The latest changes have failed to lower the performance delta between the top and bottom races for both Stamina and Magicka.

The effectiveness delta between races has actually increased compared to Murkmire, with the DPS gap between races on Magplars rising from 5.68% (Dunmer compared to no-racial) in Murkmire to 6.89% (Altmer compared to no-racial) in PTS 4.3.3. As a result, "meta" racial choices are becoming more of a priority, and in the end-game raiding scene, even a necessity.

In a game that is part of the "Elder Scrolls" franchise, racial identity is always going to be a big draw and a huge part of the enjoyment of the game. However, with these changes, raiders would be more incentivized to switch to a race they don't like to play or risk being removed from the core teams they raid in. This is already a problem currently in Murkmire, with certain groups being so *** as to kick people for playing a Khajiit rather than a Redguard. I myself have been removed from a vCR progression team simply for running an Argonian DPS, even though I have repeatedly demonstrated my skill and ability as a DPS and have cleared vCR+3 multiple times. When the entire ESO community goes up in arms about only receiving one race-change token for this update, it means that whatever changes that are coming aren't balanced.


Misinformation
This starts to go into rant territory, so I'll keep this brief. I'm going to avoid naming-and-shaming, and I'm not going to go into detail because you'd know who.

There have been plenty of mentions of a series of tests done by a specific player (not saying who) using an entirely flawed testing methodology, and the ESO forums community has gobbled it all up. When the state of peer-review becomes so bad that even one of our Class Representatives (again, not saying who) is spreading misinformation through their flawed mathematics and false claims, you know that this "racial passive balance" is going nowhere.

I am currently in a Discord group full of people from end-game raiding guilds on all platforms on both NA and EU, and these two points above have been brought up repeatedly throughout the entire month of PTS. Lots of lambasting to be had, of course, but ultimately our reasoning for labeling these two things above as misinformation is solid, with our own spreadsheets and mathematics as proof.

There is another point that I would like to bring up in regards to the Argonian nerf. PvPrs like to complain about Argonians being OP in PvP, and while that is a legitimate pain point, I don't believe it is as big of an issue as they like to make it out to be. Don't get me wrong, they were really powerful in PvP, but many of their benefits were also overplayed a ton. 1. People will always go up in arms about being out-played by races/classes/builds that they don't play, and 2. a big part of the reason why people think Argonians are unfair to fight against is because their Resourceful passive gives them a burst of resources that can surprise their opponents, and much of those complaints would go away if Argonians were just given a flat 102/s regen for all resources. My point is that the community itself can be extremely misleading when it comes to issues about stats and balancing.

Suggestions
Given that there's only one work day left before the update, I am concerned that my suggestions will fall on deaf ears. I have my own reasoning for these, but all of my reasoning is backed up by my own testing, the testing results from others, and my own significant amount of experience in the end-game raiding scene as both a DPS and Tank.

I will be listing these in order of importance.

Argonians: don't shoehorn them into the healing role; give them something useful that benefits both healing and damage instead.
Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka and Max Stamina by 1000. Restore 4000 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 6%. Wrath of the Hist: Upon receiving healing, gain 5% Weapon and Spell Critical for 5 seconds. OR Upon receiving healing, gain 129/200 Weapon and Spell Damage for 5 seconds.

If people were complaining about the Resourceful passive before, they're going to continue complaining if the current iteration goes live.
Also, Healing Done is way too niche of a passive, useful for healers and nothing more. No one likes to be shoehorned into supportive roles, and increasing Wep and Spell Crit OR Damage gives them more viability as DPS while still keeping them good as healers, and they have to have heals on themselves for those bonuses to take effect. Maybe, just to make them slightly more viable for tanking to match Nords and Imperials, something for healing to match Bretons, and something for DPS in Master Architect or War Machine, perhaps they can have a 2s increase to any Major buffs they apply to the group; nothing majorly overpowered but still at least somewhat useful in these roles.

Nords: they need something sustain-related so they can be viable for DPS as well.
Stalwart: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500 2000. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. When you deal damage, you restore 1000 Stamina. Both of these effects can occur once every 10 seconds.

Sure they're good at tanking, but in terms of flexibility, they don't quite match Imperials. This should change that and should put their DPS on par with Imperials.

Altmer: their Spell Recharge passive doesn't make sense, but any Magicka sustain is going to boost their already-powerful damage. Rather, give them something defensive that's actually useful.
Spell Recharge: Restore 645 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is lower (maximum), after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time. Increases the shields you apply by 10%.

I can see bigger shields being useful for all roles. It increases their survivability, makes sense, and works for group utility. I even kept in the lower-resource-restored because it could still be situationally useful.

Khajiit: 10% Critical Damage makes them too powerful in PvP, and 8% Critical Chance makes them too powerful in PvE. I think a middle-ground should make everyone happy.
Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Damage and Healing by 10% 5%. Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 3/4%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 3m.

Numbers can be tweaked, but I think these numbers would work to balance out PvE DPS side a bit more without screwing with their utility by too much, and shouldn't require too much work on ZOS's part in terms of actually discussing and implementing this.
Edited by HatchetHaro on February 22, 2019 6:18AM
  • Ogou
    Ogou
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    That was a very interesting read. Thanks for your hard work. It seems that although the difference between the "DPS" races has decreased they are still pulling ahead of the other ones. I sincerely did not expect that.
  • Siohwenoeht
    Siohwenoeht
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    Quite a good write up. It's been very tough to sift through the pts posts and find the objective information. It's especially important for us console users who can't access the pts from our platforms.

    If I missed it in your write up I apologise, but how is the new CP calculation affecting the applicable racial bonuses? Are they working as intended?
    "It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    therift wrote: »
    Until I see testing that subjects parse data to statistical analysis, I will not trust any of them as reliable.
    And you, sir/madam, are correct. I like you.

    Unfortunately, there is much RNG to be had with parsing, and eliminating all of the variance is close to impossible; so far, I am the only person to really eliminate the variance of human error and the RNG of critical chance in my testing. I also publish all of my numbers including original parse numbers, Minor Vulnerability uptimes, calculations, and analysis here.

    I hope that the inclusion of additional parsing data that I used to get my results should assure you that my own testing data is as reliable as it can be, and would also at least give you an idea of how much you can trust it. If there's any additional data you want such as standard deviation between parses, I can supply it.

    Peer-review is a very important thing. As we have seen with the other testing results being thrown about, the lack of it can mislead the population. So thank you for mentioning this.
    Quite a good write up. It's been very tough to sift through the pts posts and find the objective information. It's especially important for us console users who can't access the pts from our platforms.

    If I missed it in your write up I apologise, but how is the new CP calculation affecting the applicable racial bonuses? Are they working as intended?
    I didn't include the new CP calculations; they're a bit finicky and it really isn't fair to compare Live to PTS in terms of raw stats, since their nature is completely different (% vs flat value). As far as I know, current CP calculations on Live are multiplicative to existing bonuses, but take this with a grain of salt because I haven't personally verified it. On the PTS, they are additive; this I can verify. It is working as intended.

    You're still going to see more of a buff to races with more resources compare to races with less.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 22, 2019 6:12AM
  • therift
    therift
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    @HatchetHaro

    It will take me some time to digest your material, but a quick read gives me much confidence in your approach in dealing with all the variables or at least identify where they may skew results. I know... it's not easy.

    Many thanks for the in-depth explanation of your methodology; it helps to follow along
  • DoobZ69
    DoobZ69
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    I agree with the reasoning and the conclusions but I do not agree with the suggestions because they are not backed up with solid enough evidence.
  • Siohwenoeht
    Siohwenoeht
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    therift wrote: »
    Until I see testing that subjects parse data to statistical analysis, I will not trust any of them as reliable.
    And you, sir/madam, are correct. I like you.

    Unfortunately, there is much RNG to be had with parsing, and eliminating all of the variance is close to impossible; so far, I am the only person to really eliminate the variance of human error and the RNG of critical chance in my testing. I also publish all of my numbers including original parse numbers, Minor Vulnerability uptimes, calculations, and analysis here.

    I hope that the inclusion of additional parsing data that I used to get my results should assure you that my own testing data is as reliable as it can be, and would also at least give you an idea of how much you can trust it. If there's any additional data you want such as standard deviation between parses, I can supply it.

    Peer-review is a very important thing. As we have seen with the other testing results being thrown about, the lack of it can mislead the population. So thank you for mentioning this.
    Quite a good write up. It's been very tough to sift through the pts posts and find the objective information. It's especially important for us console users who can't access the pts from our platforms.

    If I missed it in your write up I apologise, but how is the new CP calculation affecting the applicable racial bonuses? Are they working as intended?
    I didn't include the new CP calculations; they're a bit finicky and it really isn't fair to compare Live to PTS in terms of raw stats, since their nature is completely different (% vs flat value). As far as I know, current CP calculations on Live are multiplicative to existing bonuses, but take this with a grain of salt because I haven't personally verified it. On the PTS, they are additive; this I can verify. It is working as intended.

    You're still going to see more of a buff to races with more resources compare to races with less.

    I wanted to assume max stat races would work that way but we all know what happens when we assume ;)
    "It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    I agree with the reasoning and the conclusions but I do not agree with the suggestions because they are not backed up with solid enough evidence.

    I assume that my reasoning, conclusions, and testing results are evidence enough, but it seems you need more from me to convince you.


    Argonians:
    Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka and Max Stamina by 1000. Restore 4000 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
    Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 6%. Wrath of the Hist: Upon receiving healing, gain 5% Weapon and Spell Critical for 5 seconds. OR Upon receiving healing, gain 129/200 Weapon and Spell Damage for 5 seconds.

    Several changes I've listed here. First of all, I want to give them an additional 1000 Max Stamina. Argonians have always been something of a hybrid race with their sustain, and since Dunmer and Khajiit are now the same way, I see no reason not to have Argonians be brought up closer to their level, with the lowest damage and highest sustain.

    Secondly, what made Argonians strong as tanks and at PvP in the first place was their tri-stat sustain. Their first PTS iteration of it nerfed the Live 4600 Resources per potion down to 3600, so about 80 resources/s, and I thought that was a healthy amount; then they buffed it back up to 4000 (88 resources/s) because they realized that their nerfs were too heavy-handed. The thing is that this just retains their pain-point in PvP while still being an overall nerf to PvE, and PvE is something they absolutely do not need a nerf in, what with the buffs to other races taking their roles already.

    Thirdly, as I've stated, Healing Done is way too niche of a stat; it does nothing for any role except for healers, and the fact of the matter is that healers in raids already have more than enough healing power.

    Rather, I would trade that for more damage, since that is the exact role they have been lacking in the entire time. I've put in two different choices, either Critical Chance or raw Damage; Critical Chance gives damage without really buffing their PvP ability too much (since Critical Chance isn't too powerful in PvP), and Spell+Wep Damage gives them more consistent damage and healing. I've also made them proc only when healing is received just to maintain the lore consistency and also to make people work a bit more for it in PvP by keeping heals on themselves.

    I also suggested giving them additional 2s of any Major buffs they apply to the group; it makes them a bit more viable for tanking, healing, and DPS, without intruding too far into those roles and disrupting the rankings.


    Nords:
    Stalwart: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500 2000. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. When you deal damage, you restore 1000 Stamina. Both of these effects can occur once every 10 seconds.

    Imperials have 66/s resources restored per second, have 2000 Max Stamina, 2000 Max Health, and 3% ability cost reduction.

    Nords only have 1500 Max Stamina, 1000 Max Health, and just a tiny bit more Ultimate regeneration.

    I want to buff that to 2000 Max Stamina and 100/s Stamina sustain just so they can go toe to toe with Imperials in terms of PvE DPS. If Imperials can be good at it, Nords should be good at it too.


    Altmer:
    Spell Recharge: Restore 645 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is lower (maximum), after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time. Increases the shields you apply by 10%.

    Let's be real, restoring the resource you're not specced into is just plain useless for 99% of scenarios; it's only slightly useful for tanking, but even then you're better off with other kinds of passives.

    Increasing the shields they apply help their group utility and survival; as a tank, Igneous Shields can shield for more, and as a healer, Healing Ward would be more potent. It also fits into the lore of Altmer being casters.


    Khajiit:
    Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Damage and Healing by 10% 5%. Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 3/4%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 3m.

    From my own testing, 10% Critical Damage puts them behind Bretons and Dunmer in terms of DPS, and 8% Critical Chance puts them far ahead of all other races (at least on Templar). 10% Critical Damage also makes PvP ganking builds so much more potent due to the much higher burst potential. I just put in half of the Critical Damage and half of the Critical Chance so they would be much closer in terms of PvE damage to the other race, and still viable in PvP.


    I hope this is enough.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 22, 2019 5:49PM
  • Tommy_The_Gun
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    Part of the reason why Argonians wont be as good in both PvE tanking & healing and in PvP in general is that they are losing poison resistance & poison immunity entirely. It may not seem like much, but both PvE & PvP have plenty of poison dmg sources in it. Not to mention WW build utilizing Argonians that all of the sudden will have poison dot on them that deals + 25% more dmg (because ww) without the option to purge it while in ww form.

    And finally, the loss of healing received. This mostly hurts tanks, but also pretty much every other role (basically 5% less healing compared to live server = 5% more chances to die).

    Looking at other races and their passive changes it makes me think that "quick to mend" pasive should stay as it is curently on live server.
    Also one of the racial rebalance goals was to improve character progression... So how is that an improvement when argonians get their weakest passive as a level 50 "reward" ?!

    Anyway, good points OP. It is nice to see that. Wished more people looked at racial passives like that.
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on February 22, 2019 7:52AM
  • Shantu
    Shantu
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    Peekachu99 wrote: »
    In the end, developers follow their own vision—for better or worse—and we’re just along for the ride.

    So true.
  • TheMythicDawn
    TheMythicDawn
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    Oi, give the poor sod a break eh? Mate really likes argonians crikey
  • HighEndDesktopGamer
    Peekachu99 wrote: »
    A bunch of angry emotionally invested ranting over a video game means it’s time for a break. How many hours did you spend discussing and compiling this? In the end, developers follow their own vision—for better or worse—and we’re just along for the ride.

    The sooner you realize that and either settle in or move on, the happier you will be.

    Honest advice, not trolling.

    I had a giggle too. I share your sentiments. The proposed changes will make the game more interesting and encourage diversity.

    My eyes glaze over when other players post these sorts of threads. Good for a laugh though!
  • Pevey
    Pevey
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    I agree with all of the suggestions and would also add:

    Redguards should be given some weapon damage to return them to their rightful place as a top-tier stam dps. (they are the warrior race, should not be behind dunmer!)

    Imperial is still terrible. They should not be shoehorned into tanking, especially since as you pointed out so well any race can tank. They need something for dps. But I sound like a broken record here.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Pevey wrote: »
    I agree with all of the suggestions and would also add:

    Redguards should be given some weapon damage to return them to their rightful place as a top-tier stam dps. (they are the warrior race, should not be behind dunmer!)

    Imperial is still terrible. They should not be shoehorned into tanking, especially since as you pointed out so well any race can tank. They need something for dps. But I sound like a broken record here.

    I haven't personally tested this but I think that Redguards and Bosmer are actually going to deal more damage compared to Orcs and Dunmer on classes and rotations that are more resource-intensive, such as Stamina Sorcerer, especially when using gold food, which is mathematically the most powerful food a DPS can use.

    Imperials are actually already most of the way there on Stamina DPS. The resource return and reduced ability cost makes them closer to Redguards, though it definitely doesn't hold a candle to Redguard Adrenaline Rush. I think just a bit of extra Weapon Damage (replace some of their Health) would put them in the middle between Redguards and Orcs in terms of DPS for both sustainable and resource-intensive rotations.
  • Tatanko
    Tatanko
    ✭✭✭
    Not to derail the conversation, but since you've got experience with Update 21: what are your thoughts/recommendations on the dual wield changes?
    Silvanus the Gilded
    Lord of the Topal
    Imperial Templar - PC/NA
  • phantasmalD
    phantasmalD
    ✭✭✭
    Also one of the racial rebalance goals was to improve character progression... So how is that an improvement when argonians get their weakest passive as a level 50 "reward" ?!
    The passives got reordered, Resourceful is the last one you are getting now.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tatanko wrote: »
    Not to derail the conversation, but since you've got experience with Update 21: what are your thoughts/recommendations on the dual wield changes?

    Stamina DPS has been at the top for quite a while now since Summerset with the inclusion of Relequen and Jewelry crafting making Advancing Yokeda extremely viable; it is not unusual to see scorepushing raids being run with 6 or more Stamina DPS, so I'm personally fine with a nerf.

    The dual wield changes would likely make Stamina DPS run Nirnhoned/Sharpened + Precise/Sharpened with a double damage Alchemical Poison. It shouldn't be too big of a damage nerf to them.

    EDIT: Apparently Alchemical Poisons no longer stack. You can still use them in solo content like vMA, and I suppose you could use Absorb Stamina + Poison glyphs for multiplayer stuff.

    Rather, the Infused 1-handed weapon change affects tanks the most; having a good Infused Torugs Crusher uptime is something that trial tanks strive for, so with the nerf to Infused on 1-handed weapons, I highly suspect the meta would shift towards Ice staff tanks running Elemental Blockade. Overall, it makes debuffing as a tank more challenging.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 22, 2019 2:50PM
  • Uryel
    Uryel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    In a game that is part of the "Elder Scrolls" franchise, racial identity is always going to be a big draw and a huge part of the enjoyment of the game.

    Indeed. I understand that your analysis is mostly for high end raiding and PvP content, but I'd like to add that this part I did quote is even more true for the casual, non high end players.

    I play a bosmer stealthy character, because I like bosmers and stealth. That is the identiy of the character. But the Maths Team decided that there can be only one race with stealth bonus, and went for khajiits, despite the bosmers being as culturaly inclined to stealth. So basically, I, and everyone who made a bosmer for the same reason for that matter, am robbed of the very core of my character's identity.

    I can lose my gameplay, or lose my character's identity. Thank you, ZOS...
    max_only wrote: »
    Bosmers sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. The feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tatanko wrote: »
    Not to derail the conversation, but since you've got experience with Update 21: what are your thoughts/recommendations on the dual wield changes?

    Stamina DPS has been at the top for quite a while now since Summerset with the inclusion of Relequen and Jewelry crafting making Advancing Yokeda extremely viable; it is not unusual to see scorepushing raids being run with 6 or more Stamina DPS, so I'm personally fine with a nerf.

    The dual wield changes would likely make Stamina DPS run Nirnhoned/Sharpened + Precise/Sharpened with a double damage Alchemical Poison. It shouldn't be too big of a damage nerf to them.

    Rather, the Infused 1-handed weapon change affects tanks the most; having a good Infused Torugs Crusher uptime is something that trial tanks strive for, so with the nerf to Infused on 1-handed weapons, I highly suspect the meta would shift towards Ice staff tanks running Elemental Blockade. Overall, it makes debuffing as a tank more challenging.

    Alchemical poisons don't stack. If two players use the same poison, they will override each other. So double dot poisons are out of question. Only one player may use them
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll just break your comment down.
    srfrogg23 wrote: »
    You see, this is why racial passives just need to be relegated to flavor and have zero impact on combat.
    I fully agree with this.
    srfrogg23 wrote: »
    We're talking about some pretty minor differences in end game efficiency but people can't resist the urge to exaggerate and exacerbate the hysteria.
    Actually, end-game raiders min/max to be able to get the best scores possible. Even a difference in 1% DPS is fought over because any little bit helps to get them a higher score than before, and the difference is now actually up to 6.5%.

    The thing is that you not caring about min/maxing does not make the very idea of min/maxing laughable; not being able to comprehend it does not mean you are right in slamming it.
    srfrogg23 wrote: »
    And how exactly was that other test flawed? They brought results to the table. Results that showed the differences between each race in each role was less than 2% effectiveness. With numbers based on 20 parses, then averaged.

    You brought conjecture and opinions. Are you sure you're not the one bringing misinformation?
    They brought results to the table but the tests they used that brought those results are flawed and in no way represent the real differences in DPS across races. They have failed to factor in human error, the variance from critical chance, and even the variance from Minor Vulnerability which they are even unaware of, and they have used a testing methodology that absolutely does not emulate the end-game raiding scene. Their numbers vary up to 6k between parses and the fluctuating data alone makes their results unreliable.

    I, on the other hand, have documented every single part of my testing procedure, eliminated human error and the variance from lucky and unlucky critical hits, and made transparent every single value that would skew my results. All of my numbers were consistent and within 2k of each other, and all of my results and calculations are fully transparent for everyone to peer-review.

    So yes, I'm absolutely certain I am not the one bringing misinformation. I did not bring conjecture; I've brought analyses based on information that is as complete and consistent as possible, and commented on the changes based on my vast amount of experience in the end-game raiding scene that makes me qualified to comment on it with an unbiased and objective approach.

    Tatanko wrote: »
    Not to derail the conversation, but since you've got experience with Update 21: what are your thoughts/recommendations on the dual wield changes?

    Stamina DPS has been at the top for quite a while now since Summerset with the inclusion of Relequen and Jewelry crafting making Advancing Yokeda extremely viable; it is not unusual to see scorepushing raids being run with 6 or more Stamina DPS, so I'm personally fine with a nerf.

    The dual wield changes would likely make Stamina DPS run Nirnhoned/Sharpened + Precise/Sharpened with a double damage Alchemical Poison. It shouldn't be too big of a damage nerf to them.

    Rather, the Infused 1-handed weapon change affects tanks the most; having a good Infused Torugs Crusher uptime is something that trial tanks strive for, so with the nerf to Infused on 1-handed weapons, I highly suspect the meta would shift towards Ice staff tanks running Elemental Blockade. Overall, it makes debuffing as a tank more challenging.

    Alchemical poisons don't stack. If two players use the same poison, they will override each other. So double dot poisons are out of question. Only one player may use them

    This is simply not true. Alchemical poisons are independent to each player, and they absolutely do stack, at least for double DoT poisons; in fact, double DoT poisons were in the meta back before the Infused buff last year, way back to Dragon Bones and before, used on the bow bar.

    What you are mentioning is simply the Major/Minor debuffs that some of these poisons apply, and those don't stack.

    No, that is correct. Any poisons applied are considered a unique debuff, and so any identical potions will "override" each other. This was also tested and confirmed numerous times by numerous endgame raiders when this was discovered.

    In addition, a ton of testing along with new raid buffed tests from Liko seem to indicate that Nirn + Sharp or Sharp + Sharp with Shadow and more points into Piercing seem to be stronger now than Infused + Infused. Enchants will remain the same at Poison and Absorb Stam, with maybe a Disease instead of Absorb Stam for the higher regen races.
    Oh snap, is it? It wasn't that way back in Dragon Bones, and that was when I last tested it.

    I've edited my comment to reflect this.

    When did this happen and is it intended?
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 22, 2019 5:47PM
  • T3hasiangod
    T3hasiangod
    ✭✭✭✭
    Tatanko wrote: »
    Not to derail the conversation, but since you've got experience with Update 21: what are your thoughts/recommendations on the dual wield changes?

    Stamina DPS has been at the top for quite a while now since Summerset with the inclusion of Relequen and Jewelry crafting making Advancing Yokeda extremely viable; it is not unusual to see scorepushing raids being run with 6 or more Stamina DPS, so I'm personally fine with a nerf.

    The dual wield changes would likely make Stamina DPS run Nirnhoned/Sharpened + Precise/Sharpened with a double damage Alchemical Poison. It shouldn't be too big of a damage nerf to them.

    Rather, the Infused 1-handed weapon change affects tanks the most; having a good Infused Torugs Crusher uptime is something that trial tanks strive for, so with the nerf to Infused on 1-handed weapons, I highly suspect the meta would shift towards Ice staff tanks running Elemental Blockade. Overall, it makes debuffing as a tank more challenging.

    Alchemical poisons don't stack. If two players use the same poison, they will override each other. So double dot poisons are out of question. Only one player may use them

    This is simply not true. Alchemical poisons are independent to each player, and they absolutely do stack, at least for double DoT poisons; in fact, double DoT poisons were in the meta back before the Infused buff last year, way back to Dragon Bones and before, used on the bow bar.

    What you are mentioning is simply the Major/Minor debuffs that some of these poisons apply, and those don't stack.

    No, that is correct. Any poisons applied are considered a unique debuff, and so any identical potions will "override" each other. This was also tested and confirmed numerous times by numerous endgame raiders when this was discovered.

    In addition, a ton of testing along with new raid buffed tests from Liko seem to indicate that Nirn + Sharp or Sharp + Sharp with Shadow and more points into Piercing seem to be stronger now than Infused + Infused. Enchants will remain the same at Poison and Absorb Stam, with maybe a Disease instead of Absorb Stam for the higher regen races.
    Oh snap, is it? It wasn't that way back in Dragon Bones, and that was when I last tested it.

    I've edited my comment to reflect this.

    When did this happen and is it intended?

    From what I recall, this was discovered about halfway through the Dragon Bones patch. However, at the time, Hail did not proc Berserker, so despite the fact that these poisons did not stack, it was still the highest DPS to use them.

    This is intended, mainly to prevent abuse in PvP.
    Edited by T3hasiangod on February 22, 2019 2:53PM
    PC/NA - Mayflower, Hellfire Dominion

    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer - Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor - Voice of Reason - Gryphon Heart - The Unchained

    Tank - Healer - DPS (all classes, all specs)

    Youtube - Twitch
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tatanko wrote: »
    Not to derail the conversation, but since you've got experience with Update 21: what are your thoughts/recommendations on the dual wield changes?

    Stamina DPS has been at the top for quite a while now since Summerset with the inclusion of Relequen and Jewelry crafting making Advancing Yokeda extremely viable; it is not unusual to see scorepushing raids being run with 6 or more Stamina DPS, so I'm personally fine with a nerf.

    The dual wield changes would likely make Stamina DPS run Nirnhoned/Sharpened + Precise/Sharpened with a double damage Alchemical Poison. It shouldn't be too big of a damage nerf to them.

    Rather, the Infused 1-handed weapon change affects tanks the most; having a good Infused Torugs Crusher uptime is something that trial tanks strive for, so with the nerf to Infused on 1-handed weapons, I highly suspect the meta would shift towards Ice staff tanks running Elemental Blockade. Overall, it makes debuffing as a tank more challenging.

    Alchemical poisons don't stack. If two players use the same poison, they will override each other. So double dot poisons are out of question. Only one player may use them

    This is simply not true. Alchemical poisons are independent to each player, and they absolutely do stack, at least for double DoT poisons; in fact, double DoT poisons were in the meta back before the Infused buff last year, way back to Dragon Bones and before, used on the bow bar.

    What you are mentioning is simply the Major/Minor debuffs that some of these poisons apply, and those don't stack.

    No, that is correct. Any poisons applied are considered a unique debuff, and so any identical potions will "override" each other. This was also tested and confirmed numerous times by numerous endgame raiders when this was discovered.

    In addition, a ton of testing along with new raid buffed tests from Liko seem to indicate that Nirn + Sharp or Sharp + Sharp with Shadow and more points into Piercing seem to be stronger now than Infused + Infused. Enchants will remain the same at Poison and Absorb Stam, with maybe a Disease instead of Absorb Stam for the higher regen races.
    Oh snap, is it? It wasn't that way back in Dragon Bones, and that was when I last tested it.

    I've edited my comment to reflect this.

    When did this happen and is it intended?

    From what I recall, this was discovered about halfway through the Dragon Bones patch. However, at the time, Hail did not proc Berserker, so despite the fact that these poisons did not stack, it was still the highest DPS to use them.

    This is intended, mainly to prevent abuse in PvP.
    That makes sense. Thanks a ton for the input mate. Love your work.
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