Proposal to replace the champion system

BattleAxe

ZoS wants to revamp the current endgame progression system I propose change it to something role specific so less options but more impactful depending on what role you choose for your character and have each option be role specific so someone can’t try to cheese the system example for one option in this role paragon system tank increased resistance healer increased healing efficiency and dps increased damage you will only get bonus based on wut role you select and instead of point investment it increases as ur paragon level increases this would also if done right fix both pave and pvp and bring medium and light armor up to par with heavy in pvp content

BattleAxe

To add how this could effect pvp and bring light and medium up to par with heavy specific bonuses would be tied to having 5 or more of specific armor type and some bonuses for playing your selected role

BattleAxe

Sorry I don’t have too much to offer in suggestions at the moment but this kind of system would be a breath of fresh air for all roles both pve and pvp and can allow for more build diversity again if it’s done right all suggestions for more bonuses would be welcome and can create a progression system built by the eso community

validifyedneb18_ESO

BattleAxe wrote: »

To add how this could effect pvp and bring light and medium up to par with heavy specific bonuses would be tied to having 5 or more of specific armor type and some bonuses for playing your selected role

Way to continue to seal the deal against hybrid builds.

Honestly I hope whatever system does replace it, its less of a grind for new players to progress (ESO has grown quite a reputation for grind and seeing a level 2000 player as a new player doenst help) and is generally more toned down compared to now, giving us only the bare essentials we currently get and no more.

We've had power creep for a long time, we need a reversal of that, not just a system that keeps us where we are now.

Merlight

https://www.ef.com/wwen/english-resources/english-grammar/punctuation/

BattleAxe

Thank you grammar police!

BattleAxe

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

To add how this could effect pvp and bring light and medium up to par with heavy specific bonuses would be tied to having 5 or more of specific armor type and some bonuses for playing your selected role

Way to continue to seal the deal against hybrid builds.

Honestly I hope whatever system does replace it, its less of a grind for new players to progress (ESO has grown quite a reputation for grind and seeing a level 2000 player as a new player doenst help) and is generally more toned down compared to now, giving us only the bare essentials we currently get and no more.

We've had power creep for a long time, we need a reversal of that, not just a system that keeps us where we are now.

The intention is not to kill hybrid builds. The intention is to take the current system and simplify it and find a way to allow play your way based on your role. So another example bonus could be increase your max resource by 20% so a hybrid would intentionally make their resources equal to get a bonus to both. This system I’m proposing if done right will allow you to play as you want.

Tommy_The_Gun

There are 9 constellations in Champion System:
1. The Warrior (The Lord, The Lady, The Steed)
2. The Mage (The Ritual, The Apprentice, The Atronach)
3. The Thief (The Tower, The Lover, The Shadow)

There are 3 roles in eso: Tank, DPS, Healer.
There are 3 types of build in eso: Pure Magicka, Pure Stamina, Hybrid.
^ That is 9 combinations ^

That should be a good baseline to do an Champion System Overhaul imho

Madcap_Symphony

BattleAxe wrote: »

The intention is not to kill hybrid builds. The intention is to take the current system and simplify it and find a way to allow play your way based on your role. So another example bonus could be increase your max resource by 20% so a hybrid would intentionally make their resources equal to get a bonus to both. This system I’m proposing if done right will allow you to play as you want.

We already get a 20% bonus to all three resource pools with the current CP setup.

Letho2469

There is only one good solution for it, speaking from a balance and performance perspective: Removing it and replacing it with NOTHTING. The game gives us enough tools to fine tune builds, no need for another sophisticated and ressource intensive layer on top of it.

muh

The system itself doesn't need to be replaced entirely in my opinion.

They could just reduce the functional amount of CP to 160 (so they don't mess with gear) and reduce the granularity of each point. So instead of having to pump 10 points into something to get 1% increase out of it you just put in one point. The requirements for perks are scaled down accordingly.

To make up for the time investment of high CP player they could add a new outfit style tied to Champion Level.
Like every one hundred CP you get a Level up like reward where you can pick one page of said style. Champion Level themselves could be kept as a prestige system instead.

Letho2469

One point for removing the system entirely is performance in cyrodiil. CPs take a separate and unneccessary calculation layer.

BattleAxe

Madcap_Symphony wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

The intention is not to kill hybrid builds. The intention is to take the current system and simplify it and find a way to allow play your way based on your role. So another example bonus could be increase your max resource by 20% so a hybrid would intentionally make their resources equal to get a bonus to both. This system I’m proposing if done right will allow you to play as you want.

We already get a 20% bonus to all three resource pools with the current CP setup.

Yes with cp system we get 20% now wut if it’s removed or entirely changed then the one suggestion I made would make sense actually. The point is this system I’m proposing would have clear cut roles specific bonuses be simpler and would scale off the paragon level so we may have the same bonus but if I’m 200 paragon higher my bonus will be significantly larger so will keep a rewarding system for long time players and drive lower level players to grind up lvls. Bonuses this system would provide would still need to be set up more and as stated earlier suggestions would make this a community built progression system. One thing to keep in mind also is this system is role specific based on the role u selected so u won’t get the bonus a tank would if u selected a dps. Some bonuses will also have to be tied to using proper armor based on mag stam healer or tank.

Kulvar

ZOS wants 4 "properties" to the new CP system:
• Permanent improvement of the character
• Infinitely grindable
• No power creep
• Catch up mechanics for new players

Witar

You could add the serpent into cp system and make it so you can dump your unused cp there for extra small (or cosmetic) bonuses, like glowing halo or access to extra cool mount or different animations or name your cool stuff there.
Definitly would help with infinitly grindable part.

Madrajin

muh wrote: »

The system itself doesn't need to be replaced entirely in my opinion.

They could just reduce the functional amount of CP to 160 (so they don't mess with gear) and reduce the granularity of each point. So instead of having to pump 10 points into something to get 1% increase out of it you just put in one point. The requirements for perks are scaled down accordingly.

To make up for the time investment of high CP player they could add a new outfit style tied to Champion Level.
Like every one hundred CP you get a Level up like reward where you can pick one page of said style. Champion Level themselves could be kept as a prestige system instead.

The problem is that doesn't allow for diminishing returns. Just as when ZOS removed a similar system on attribute points the result was everyone except tanks placing all 64 points in either magicka or stamina the same will happen again with CP people will just put maximum points in a small number of options. Doing so just encourages cookie cutter characters even more. The removal of the World of Warcraft talent tree system was the death of unique characters in that game. I don't want to see the same happen in ESO.

Just like the thief constellation jump points should be removed from warrior and mage constellations. Bonuses should be applied complete with their fractional values rather than rounding down.

Mage constellation unlocks should give a bonus that applies to both stamina and magicka builds which will encourage hybrid builds.

It's impossible to have an infinite advancement system without power creep. There is nothing wrong with ending character advancement.

BattleAxe

Kulvar wrote: »

ZOS wants 4 "properties" to the new CP system:
• Permanent improvement of the character
• Infinitely grindable
• No power creep
• Catch up mechanics for new players

The suggestion I was making would actually fill pretty much all this properties.
Simpler as in u don’t spend points u just unlock bonus to ur specific role. As you progress your “paragon” level the bonus will get better so infinitetly grindable. Now power creep this new system would still probably have some power creep but mainly based on similar paragon levels. Keep the system of a paragon cap each patch so essentially new players can catch up.

Lucky28

Letho2469 wrote: »

One point for removing the system entirely is performance in cyrodiil. CPs take a separate and unneccessary calculation layer.

i doubt they're going to remove it. it's been in the game too long and players have invested too much time into it. removing it would be very problematic.

vamp_emily

I like CP because it allows you to be a little different than other players ( pointing points in different categories ); however, i have a weird feeling CP is bugged.

BattleAxe

I made this discussion primarily to make a suggestion to something that can replace the cp system in the event that’s what ZoS wants to do. I was looking to get players to add in suggestions for bonuses in a system like this again allowing the community to build a new progression system.

Letho2469

Lucky28 wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

One point for removing the system entirely is performance in cyrodiil. CPs take a separate and unneccessary calculation layer.

i doubt they're going to remove it. it's been in the game too long and players have invested too much time into it. removing it would be very problematic.

Nobody has a clue about that except ZOS.

emelee_ESO

No, not a good idea. You will kill hybrids, unique builds, personal playstyle builds, etc... WoW did this and it killed any minor amount of uniqueness you could from their different trees. I had attempted to replay that game a while ago and found this out and it made me sad. Part of the joy I take from ESO is the fact that I can mess around and tweak gear sets, skills, and CP for a play style I want.

Does something need to be done with CP due to the power creep? Yes. Should it be this suggestion? No. Props to you for providing a suggestion though, because it does need something, and I don't have a viable suggestion myself.

BattleAxe

emelee_ESO wrote: »

No, not a good idea. You will kill hybrids, unique builds, personal playstyle builds, etc... WoW did this and it killed any minor amount of uniqueness you could from their different trees. I had attempted to replay that game a while ago and found this out and it made me sad. Part of the joy I take from ESO is the fact that I can mess around and tweak gear sets, skills, and CP for a play style I want.

Does something need to be done with CP due to the power creep? Yes. Should it be this suggestion? No. Props to you for providing a suggestion though, because it does need something, and I don't have a viable suggestion myself.

If implemented correctly this idea of a new system will by all accounts allow hybrids. The thing is tho designing bonuses to make this worthwhile with minimal suggestions I’ve made for bonuses yes it sounds like it will kill hybrids but in reality it would be the exact opposite

Mettaricana

Heres a propsal give us the 3200 cp cap worth of stat buffs apply it to our characters directly and remove the system entirely

Casdha

How about a simple catch up system for new players? You grant 3 banked CP for every level earned up to level 50 and once level 50 is reached they have access to 150 CP to use once level 50 is reached.

This wouldn't be that bad in my opinion as those who have played for a long time already have access to their full CP pool on a new character.

Mettaricana

Casdha wrote: »

How about a simple catch up system for new players? You grant 3 banked CP for every level earned up to level 50 and once level 50 is reached they have access to 150 CP to use once level 50 is reached.

This wouldn't be that bad in my opinion as those who have played for a long time already have access to their full CP pool on a new character.

That sounds nice but its not a catch up issue thats the issue... its more or less the entire system sucks and imbalances the game on its own

Red_Feather

Guild Wars attribute system is really good and no other game I know of uses it. Not even Guild Wars 2 is using it.

I hope people with zenimax have played it even though it is old and think it's a good system too.

It's just a really good system and helped keep people playing way longer than the devs admitted they thought people would play!

Casdha

Mettaricana wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

How about a simple catch up system for new players? You grant 3 banked CP for every level earned up to level 50 and once level 50 is reached they have access to 150 CP to use once level 50 is reached.

This wouldn't be that bad in my opinion as those who have played for a long time already have access to their full CP pool on a new character.

That sounds nice but its not a catch up issue thats the issue... its more or less the entire system sucks and imbalances the game on its own

It's not as crazy as my other idea for true Hybrid builds. You make each resource pool useful for certain roles and link bonuses to each type.

Health = the effectiveness of healing abilities (how much you can heal yourself or others)
Stamina = the effectiveness of sustain abilities (how fast you can recharge pools)
Magicka = the effectiveness of defensive abilities (how large your shields can be) (after all lets face it if a shield is some kind of magic orb that surrounds you...)

Damage is linked to your highest resource pool regardless what it is.

(sword and board would be extra armor and less damage since all other weapons are now two handed)

See, I told ya

edit: for clarification

Temeraire507

If some new System is differentiating between tanks, healers and damage dealers, please make sure they are viable wherever you want to play them (if not still do it anyway it is something that is annoying me very much). Make sure that you can play your role.
(The following part is not meant as a rant against any playstyle we currently have and is all together a bit narrow minded but still I believe it serves as an example of what I want to point out)
E.g. in PvP real tanks are not necessarily useless but they have the flaw that they can't really do their job (protecting their allies from damage) because you can just ignore them. All they can do against that is spamming some debuffs on you to make you want to attack them, but still that is not the idea of tanking. The problem that you can't really tank leads to healers and DD's running around as tanky as possible since they are just priority targets compared to an almost unkillable guy running around with as much as he can do to absorb damage but doing nothing else.
In PvE healers and tanks are basically supporters not really tanks or healers. A tank shouldn't necessarily need to debuff enemies. We could just take the radical route and make enemies so hard that you need your 60k HP full heavy armor block build to not die with one hit. That is tanking to me, not standing around buffing your DD's taking whatever set benefits their damage the most and debuffing as many enemies as possible (I know that is not everything you do. In reality the current meta tanks still have a hard job. And yes raising enemies strength to the point where you need such a build would also kill a lot of build diversity, which is why I said 'could'. I would not want them to do this.). That buffing and debuffing to me fulfills the definition of support not tanking. (I do not say someone playing like this is bad at what he does. Or that this playstyle is bad. I kinda like playing such a semi-tank myself but to me that is just not tanking.) Same goes for healers. DD's basically exist in the states full life, almost dead and dead, jumping between them all the time and their health is so low that you do not need that much raw healing and HoTs most of the time (ever saw a good group popping healing ults in PvE? I mean a real healing ult like soul siphon, practised incantation or healing thicket not stuff like replenishing barrier against a lot of incoming burst damage). You can just focus on support. That also makes some classes more desirable in this roles than others which is against the philosophy the classes are built around. Every class should be able to heal, tank, support and deal damage in a different way but on a comparable level.

That leads me to the point of saying that just differentiating between those three roles is a really bad idea in my opinion. Personal builds, generally builds that trade part of their damage for tankiness or healing or vice versa, should be playable. Hybrids should be playable. Maybe it should even have its benefit to run 2-2-3 on armor or a bow as magicka DD. Stuff like that would make builds way more diverse than they are currently. But as what do you mark yourself then? If you can do everything but half as good as the others, are you a tank? A healer? A damage dealer? And how do you ensure those builds can still compete with the specialized ones?

BattleAxe

Temeraire507 wrote: »

If some new System is differentiating between tanks, healers and damage dealers, please make sure they are viable wherever you want to play them (if not still do it anyway it is something that is annoying me very much). Make sure that you can play your role.
(The following part is not meant as a rant against any playstyle we currently have and is all together a bit narrow minded but still I believe it serves as an example of what I want to point out)
E.g. in PvP real tanks are not necessarily useless but they have the flaw that they can't really do their job (protecting their allies from damage) because you can just ignore them. All they can do against that is spamming some debuffs on you to make you want to attack them, but still that is not the idea of tanking. The problem that you can't really tank leads to healers and DD's running around as tanky as possible since they are just priority targets compared to an almost unkillable guy running around with as much as he can do to absorb damage but doing nothing else.
In PvE healers and tanks are basically supporters not really tanks or healers. A tank shouldn't necessarily need to debuff enemies. We could just take the radical route and make enemies so hard that you need your 60k HP full heavy armor block build to not die with one hit. That is tanking to me, not standing around buffing your DD's taking whatever set benefits their damage the most and debuffing as many enemies as possible (I know that is not everything you do. In reality the current meta tanks still have a hard job. And yes raising enemies strength to the point where you need such a build would also kill a lot of build diversity, which is why I said 'could'. I would not want them to do this.). That buffing and debuffing to me fulfills the definition of support not tanking. (I do not say someone playing like this is bad at what he does. Or that this playstyle is bad. I kinda like playing such a semi-tank myself but to me that is just not tanking.) Same goes for healers. DD's basically exist in the states full life, almost dead and dead, jumping between them all the time and their health is so low that you do not need that much raw healing and HoTs most of the time (ever saw a good group popping healing ults in PvE? I mean a real healing ult like soul siphon, practised incantation or healing thicket not stuff like replenishing barrier against a lot of incoming burst damage). You can just focus on support. That also makes some classes more desirable in this roles than others which is against the philosophy the classes are built around. Every class should be able to heal, tank, support and deal damage in a different way but on a comparable level.

That leads me to the point of saying that just differentiating between those three roles is a really bad idea in my opinion. Personal builds, generally builds that trade part of their damage for tankiness or healing or vice versa, should be playable. Hybrids should be playable. Maybe it should even have its benefit to run 2-2-3 on armor or a bow as magicka DD. Stuff like that would make builds way more diverse than they are currently. But as what do you mark yourself then? If you can do everything but half as good as the others, are you a tank? A healer? A damage dealer? And how do you ensure those builds can still compete with the specialized ones?

This is ideally if implemented correctly what my suggestion would do make each role viable to do wut they need to do