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Why does adding penetration after dodging rolling make sense?

Tasear
Tasear
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Wasn't one of the goals not to make passive niche?

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----
DK Dungeon Healer: N/A
---
Warden Dungeon Healer:https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=92350
========
Sorc Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=78878
DK Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=83069


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Trial History: Magic Society Core Healer, Rolling Cliff Hangers Core Healer, Kongpanions Core Healer, Moonlight Core Healer
  • idk
    idk
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    How it that not?

    Anyhow, Zos gave their reasoning, It seems to make up for taking away some of the speed buff they get with dodge roll and provided the penetration

    By tying it to dodge roll it is not full time. The part I find odd is most of the less than full time means the server has work to do to keep up with it. I would expect those passives that require specific action for them to come into play add to server load.

    I would think that would be an equal goal in the balancing since Zos knows all the calculations they have added to the server over the years significantly adds to the lag.
    Really, idk
  • Starlock
    Starlock
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    I could self-impotantly declare that my dodge-rolling maniac of a Bosmer inspired a trend from the developers such that they want all Bosmer to be more like her. Then I could self-importantly bemoan how my creative design will now be copycatted by others because it is built into the very racial abilities of the Bosmer.

    But that would be silly.

    Silly aside, it makes perfect sense for my character as I developed her. But she's intentionally niche and it's weird that racial abilities will now support it. Awesome, but weird. It really doesn't make sense for the game at large. I can't muster complaining, though, for obvious reasons. :p
    Edited by Starlock on February 11, 2019 8:37PM
    I play ESO on XBOX NA
    My gameplay focus is creativity - through storytelling, character design, and character development (aka, I'm a dedicated role player)
    Current characters realized include:
    - Xandar (Altmer, magicka sorcerer, main crafter), a master of magic and a hopeless romantic; specializes in electric shock therapy and melodrama.
    - Vasha (Khajiit, magicka nightblade), a master thief and cunning murderer; specializes in trolling guards and general mayhem.
    - Alexander (Imperial, stamina templar, main tank), an artificer, futurist, and idealist; specializes structural integrity and gears. Mostly just gears.
    - Leoda (Bosmer, stamina warden, werewolf), a cheeky huntress dedicated to the Queen; specializes in putting arrows in your face.
    - Llaus (Dunmer, magicka dragonknight, vampire), a grim outcast with a temper; specializes in death by conflagration or exsanguination.
    - Shantava* (Redguard, stamina sorcerer), a pirate and treasure hunter; specializes in whirling blades, camel wrangling, and your money.
    - Kitara* (Breton, magicka warden, main healer), an elementalist and tree hugger; specializes in herbal remedies, tea, and pleasant bedside manner.
    * Work In Progress, may be deleted/revised
  • Marshall1289
    Marshall1289
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    Not every racial passive works in every scenario. It's there as a bit of flavor. It's weird the sustain race got a dmg buff in the first place and now it lasts 6 sec or 5 after rolling which is really high uptime.

    Dunmer: Fire dmg resist and status effect immunity.
    Altmer: Stam return every 6sec and 5% channel/cast skill mitigation.
    Redguard: 15% snare reduction.
    Orc: 10% sprint speed/12% cost reduction and 600 hp return/4sec
    Khajiit: Sneak -3m detection
    Wood Elf: Poison dmg resist and status effect immunity, movement speed/pen after dodge roll. +3m detection.

    I won't go through every class, but it's clear these can all be seen as conditional or utility based, often times only seeing use in pvp where utility is important.

    Woodelf was already really strong without the penetration. If they didn't have it, no one would be questioning their utility in the first place. It's better than what most races have to offer.
    olsborg wrote: »
    It does not make sense, and no woodelf player as I could see on this forum, likes that. The more popular suggestion is reduce the value and make it permanent or make it resists instead. Even snare immunity.

    They won't make it permanent, this is a sustain race. By ZOS's own vision, they don't want sustain AND dmg in the same racial passives. The passive isn't meant to increase dps for pve test dummy's. It's conditional, therefore most likely will only see use in pvp which is fine.

    Snare immunity would be ridiculously OP and should not be tied to a racial passive, they need to add snare immunity to more available skills in the game, not lock it behind a race.

    ZOS's own words:
    "We wanted players who are focused on damage to get a small boost out of this in situations where they dodge attacks, without adding more passive power to the race."

    Dodging is a defensive ability that now rewards offensive capability for that cost. It's interesting and I like it, it behaves as a counter/parry passive.
    Edited by Marshall1289 on February 11, 2019 8:40PM
    Played since PC Beta and PS4 Launch - 9xx CP

    Stam Sorc Redguard PvE Main || Stam Sorc Orc PvP Main
    Soon to be Stam Neco Khajiit || Stam Warden Redguard BowBow || Stam Blade Wood Elf BowBow

    Mag Sorc Altmer || Mag DK Dunmer
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    Not every racial passive works in every scenario. It's there as a bit of flavor. It's weird the sustain race got a dmg buff in the first place and now it lasts 6 sec or 5 after rolling which is really high uptime.

    Dunmer: Fire dmg resist and status effect immunity.
    Altmer: Stam return every 6sec and 5% channel/cast skill mitigation.
    Redguard: 15% snare reduction.
    Orc: 10% sprint speed/12% cost reduction and 600 hp return/4sec
    Khajiit: Sneak -3m detection
    Wood Elf: Poison dmg resist and status effect immunity, movement speed/pen after dodge roll. +3m detection.

    I won't go through every class, but it's clear these can all be seen as conditional or utility based, often times only seeing use in pvp where utility is important.

    Woodelf was already really strong without the penetration. If they didn't have it, no one would be questioning their utility in the first place. It's better than what most races have to offer.
    olsborg wrote: »
    It does not make sense, and no woodelf player as I could see on this forum, likes that. The more popular suggestion is reduce the value and make it permanent or make it resists instead. Even snare immunity.

    They won't make it permanent, this is a sustain race and the passive and by ZOS's own vision, they don't want sustain AND dmg in the same racial passives. The passive isn't meant to increase dps for pve test dummy's. It's conditional, therefore most likely will only see use in pvp.

    Snare immunity would be ridiculously OP and should not be tied to a race passive, they need to add snare immunity to more available skills in the game, not lock it behind a race.

    ZOS's own words:
    "We wanted players who are focused on damage to get a small boost out of this in situations where they dodge attacks, without adding more passive power to the race."

    Dodging is a defensive ability that now rewards offensive capability for that cost. It's interesting and I like it, it behaves as a counter/parry passive.

    How often will it actually work in pve though vs pvp? It's very niche compared to other races. At least other races have situations where their proc can work in pvp and pve, but bosmer doesn't.

    P.S Would still be questioning utility vs orc without penetration.
    Edited by Tasear on February 11, 2019 8:41PM
    Famous Healer, Loving Guild Master, Support Theory Crater
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    Sorc Dungeon Healer (Easy Version): https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91335
    Sorc PvP Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=78983
    ----
    DK Dungeon Healer: N/A
    ---
    Warden Dungeon Healer:https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=92350
    ========
    Sorc Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=78878
    DK Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=83069


    Affiliations: BBC Gaming Guild, Akvari Exchange, Imperial Trade Union, Moonlight Travelers, Raiding Strategy Academy
    Trial History: Magic Society Core Healer, Rolling Cliff Hangers Core Healer, Kongpanions Core Healer, Moonlight Core Healer
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
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    The reasoning was Bosmer are natural hunters, and being agile is key to the style of the race.

    As to why they even made a change. The community where crying about lack of racial style in the 4.3.0 update. This is the racial style you got.

    Its not actually toooo bad for PVP, and Bosmer have plenty enough in their toolbox to make them good picks for PVE.
    Edited by validifyedneb18_ESO on February 11, 2019 8:51PM
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    The reasoning was Bretons are natural hunters, and being agile is key to the style of the race.

    As to why they even made a change. The community where crying about lack of racial style in the 4.3.0 update. This is the racial style you got.

    Its not actually toooo bad for PVP, and Bretons have plenty enough in their toolbox to make them good picks for PVE.

    ... this is about bosmers...
    Famous Healer, Loving Guild Master, Support Theory Crater
    Former Class Representative, & Former Community Ambassador
    Grand Prize Winner to Deardic Dress up Contest
    ESO Community Discord: https://discord.gg/9UafDmq
    Guides
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    Builds
    Sorc Trial Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=90740
    Sorc Dungeon Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91310
    Sorc Dungeon Healer (Easy Version): https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91335
    Sorc PvP Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=78983
    ----
    DK Dungeon Healer: N/A
    ---
    Warden Dungeon Healer:https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=92350
    ========
    Sorc Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=78878
    DK Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=83069


    Affiliations: BBC Gaming Guild, Akvari Exchange, Imperial Trade Union, Moonlight Travelers, Raiding Strategy Academy
    Trial History: Magic Society Core Healer, Rolling Cliff Hangers Core Healer, Kongpanions Core Healer, Moonlight Core Healer
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    It doesn't make sense.

    Give them a flat pen bonus all time, half it if it's seems OP or something at 1500 pen.
    Xaraan • NA • PC • AD • Argonian (x15):
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    Xa-Raan - (Sun's Dusk Reaper) - Vampire Magicka-Nightblade
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    Xaraanodon - (Ophidian Overlord) - Warden-Tank
    Xäraan - (Master Angler) - Magicka-Warden
    Xâraan - (Paragon) - Stamina-Warden
    Xaraanok - (Centurion) - Sorc-Tank
    Xaraanosorcus - (Magnanamous)- Magicka-Sorc
    Xa'Raan - (Apex Predator) - WW Stamina-Sorc
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
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    Tasear wrote: »
    The reasoning was Bretons are natural hunters, and being agile is key to the style of the race.

    As to why they even made a change. The community where crying about lack of racial style in the 4.3.0 update. This is the racial style you got.

    Its not actually toooo bad for PVP, and Bretons have plenty enough in their toolbox to make them good picks for PVE.

    ... this is about bosmers...

    Yeah. Im a ***. I was talking about Bosmer in the post but wrote breton lol.

    Thanks for pointing it out, fixed.
  • Jayne_Doe
    Jayne_Doe
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    The reasoning was Bretons are natural hunters, and being agile is key to the style of the race.

    As to why they even made a change. The community where crying about lack of racial style in the 4.3.0 update. This is the racial style you got.

    Its not actually toooo bad for PVP, and Bretons have plenty enough in their toolbox to make them good picks for PVE.

    And if you don't PvP AT ALL, then this passive is pretty much useless. Yeah...the movement speed bonus works in PvE, but that's pretty much still a wasted passive if that's all you're getting. I'll not be taking this passive at all on my Bosmer once it's live.

    And, I still disagree that hunters don't require the ability to be able to remain undetected by their prey. Giving them sneak detection to go with the idea of a hunter does work in terms of flavor, but in practical terms, it's meaningless outside of PvP, since no NPC enemies sneak. I will miss not having the sneak passive on my Bosmer, as I built her as a thief, but I could deal with that if the passive weren't weighted HEAVILY to PvP, with only a small utility for PvE.

    And, I just noticed that you referred to Bosmer as Breton. :wink:
  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    I actually don't mind this addition. My stamblade is already a woodelf. And against ranged builds, I have always found that a dodge roll while approaching a target is usually a good idea. So now, that dodge roll is going to give me a boost to my penetration. I will take it.
  • TankinatorFR
    TankinatorFR
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    The reasoning was Bosmer are natural hunters, and being agile is key to the style of the race.

    The reason is that it please the devs, nothing more.
    Half the change done to this bosmer passive (and also some others change to others races) contradict their lore, making lore an invalid argument when it come to justify ZOS balancing.

    About this "penetration bonus after dodging", all I can say is that I will now have 3 more unspent skill points, because there is no use in what this passive give for PvE gameplay and stealth-oriented gameplay. In fact, I see barely any use for this passive outside of a specific kind of build that is already considered a troll build that should be nerfed by most players I have heard talking about it.
    No offense, Starlock, I have absolutely no problem with this build by myself, but I have mostly seen PvP players complaining about roll-dodging builds on all games I have been on, ESO included.
    Edited by TankinatorFR on February 11, 2019 9:15PM
  • Jayne_Doe
    Jayne_Doe
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    jaws343 wrote: »
    I actually don't mind this addition. My stamblade is already a woodelf. And against ranged builds, I have always found that a dodge roll while approaching a target is usually a good idea. So now, that dodge roll is going to give me a boost to my penetration. I will take it.

    Hmm...I'm starting to see how those work together and could be beneficial in PvE, although only situationally. A Bosmer has the agility to dodge an attack, giving them some momentum and putting the enemy off guard, at which point they are open to a punishing attack from the Bosmer.

    While still situational, the two work together to at least bring some nice utility to PvE. Without the penetration, the speed boost seemed of minimal value in PvE. The sneak detection is still totally useless for me, but I may try this new passive out.
  • Lucky28
    Lucky28
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    makes sense if your running that stupid eternal hunt set. outside of that, i dunno.
    Invictus
  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    Jayne_Doe wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    I actually don't mind this addition. My stamblade is already a woodelf. And against ranged builds, I have always found that a dodge roll while approaching a target is usually a good idea. So now, that dodge roll is going to give me a boost to my penetration. I will take it.

    Hmm...I'm starting to see how those work together and could be beneficial in PvE, although only situationally. A Bosmer has the agility to dodge an attack, giving them some momentum and putting the enemy off guard, at which point they are open to a punishing attack from the Bosmer.

    While still situational, the two work together to at least bring some nice utility to PvE. Without the penetration, the speed boost seemed of minimal value in PvE. The sneak detection is still totally useless for me, but I may try this new passive out.

    From a PVE perspective, I actually find the sneak detection to be more useful. But my bosmer nightblade is my main thieving character, so there is a bit of bias there. The pen bonus is better for PVP imo.
  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    It's not a bad change, it's just a weird one.
    i am stronk woman
    can Dunmer have more fire resist than Breton plz?
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  • Browart
    Browart
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    roll dodge, incap, roll dodge, grim focus, roll dodge, something else

    On each thing u will have 1,5k pene as bonus. OP
  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    Browart wrote: »
    roll dodge, incap, roll dodge, grim focus, roll dodge, something else

    On each thing u will have 1,5k pene as bonus. OP

    Throw in Eternal Hunt and you can keep them locked down as well.
  • kypranb14_ESO
    kypranb14_ESO
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    Tasear wrote: »
    Wasn't one of the goals not to make passive niche?

    You mean you don't roll into bed? I sure as hell do.
  • Rikumaru
    Rikumaru
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    That passive literally got a 50% increase in duration. It's pretty good right now imo.
    Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.
  • Mattock_Romulus
    Mattock_Romulus
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    Makes perfect sense.

    Son: Dad how was i made?
    Dad: Well your mom and I were play fighting in the house and well, i dodge rolled and it just fell in...
    Son: :neutral:
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    To answer the original post: it doesn't. 3 points to go somewhere else.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • katorga
    katorga
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    They are just throwing things out there at this point, responding to forum whines, and stirring the pot enough to make sure there are an adequate volume race changes.
  • Dr.NRG
    Dr.NRG
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    ezio45 wrote: »
    It doesn't make sense and is a stupid change....

    Exactly and since wood elf’s are so small shouldn’t they have less penetration? That passive suits an Orc better xD
    Edited by Dr.NRG on February 12, 2019 5:31AM
    .
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