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Shadowmundus in PvP

Jeezye
Jeezye
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I haven't seen many posts about this change yet. Did anyone do some testing on how strong overall damage is with different crit rates? I've seen some PvErs stating its still not too good, but I'm more interested in how it might perform in PvP and how high ones critrate should be to make it viable over warrior.

In Summerset PTS shadow was so bad that even warrior mundus was giving higher critical hits than shadow, whats the deal now? I loved to run shadow on my stamsorc when IC came out and I'd die to play high crit builds again!
  • Vildebill
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    Since everyone and their mothers run impen in PvP I wouldn't bother with shadow.
    EU PC
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Jeezye wrote: »
    Vildebill wrote: »
    Since everyone and their mothers run impen in PvP I wouldn't bother with shadow.

    this is actually a common misconeception since impen only reduces the amount of crit damage you do, additively. Running Shadow does the exact same thing in the opposite direction, increasing critical damage. In that way shadow actually counteracts the mitigation of impen, and they do calculate additively if I'm correct.

    Let's put it that way - impen doesn't reduce effectiveness of shadow mundus, but the effectiveness of crit builds overall.

    The issue is still impregnable rendering critdmg builds for some classes entirely not reliable.

    Shadow might be interesting on NB and Templar though.
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    ... - DC - NB

  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    I used Shadow as my goto Mundus back in One Tamriel days in PvP.

    With new buff, I actually tested the Shadow Mundus on a friend on a PvP tank setup. If you have above 40% crit chance, it is a solid choice. Shadow Mundus effectively cancels out almost 4 impen pieces on an enemy. Overall damage was about the same as Warrior/Apprentice with 48% crit rate (from CMX) but the reason I find it a great choice is that the damage was totally bursty in nature, it doesn't affect weak hits but makes the hard crits even harder. On NBs especially, who can crit at will with Cloak, it will effectively allow us to burst at will.

    Shadow is probably the PvP BiS mundus for Khajiits, as even Heavy armor Khajiits have very respectable crit rates, even in no-CP where crit resists will be even lower. It is also increases the damage of bleeds a lot, especially Master DW bleed, which is not affected by other Mundus.
  • Jeezye
    Jeezye
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    Derra wrote: »
    Jeezye wrote: »
    Vildebill wrote: »
    Since everyone and their mothers run impen in PvP I wouldn't bother with shadow.

    this is actually a common misconeception since impen only reduces the amount of crit damage you do, additively. Running Shadow does the exact same thing in the opposite direction, increasing critical damage. In that way shadow actually counteracts the mitigation of impen, and they do calculate additively if I'm correct.

    Let's put it that way - impen doesn't reduce effectiveness of shadow mundus, but the effectiveness of crit builds overall.

    The issue is still impregnable rendering critdmg builds for some classes entirely not reliable.

    Shadow might be interesting on NB and Templar though.

    exactly my thoughts. again idk why critbuilds became so unpopular, and I don't think impenetrable really is that impactful on them. I mean, base multiplier is 50%, add 10% from templar and NBs, 10% minor force, and if you really go full into crit also 15% major force with resto ult. with 13% shadow that leaves you at about 100% more crit damage, and most impen values reduce this by 30-40%. So still you can manage to hit with 50% increased damage on average crits. Especially crittable shields increase the effectiveness by a lot.
  • Jeezye
    Jeezye
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    susmitds wrote: »
    I used Shadow as my goto Mundus back in One Tamriel days in PvP.

    With new buff, I actually tested the Shadow Mundus on a friend on a PvP tank setup. If you have above 40% crit chance, it is a solid choice. Shadow Mundus effectively cancels out almost 4 impen pieces on an enemy. Overall damage was about the same as Warrior/Apprentice with 48% crit rate (from CMX) but the reason I find it a great choice is that the damage was totally bursty in nature, it doesn't affect weak hits but makes the hard crits even harder. On NBs especially, who can crit at will with Cloak, it will effectively allow us to burst at will.

    Shadow is probably the PvP BiS mundus for Khajiits, as even Heavy armor Khajiits have very respectable crit rates, even in no-CP where crit resists will be even lower. It is also increases the damage of bleeds a lot, especially Master DW bleed, which is not affected by other Mundus.

    how do you end up the 40% chance value? One thing that bothers me when trying to theorycraft high crit builds is how to achieve high crit percentages, especially on magicka. On stam there's several options to increase critrate without gimping other stats, but on magicka its not that easy. Idk if precise destros might be a thing again
  • Dracane
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    Jeezye wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    I used Shadow as my goto Mundus back in One Tamriel days in PvP.

    With new buff, I actually tested the Shadow Mundus on a friend on a PvP tank setup. If you have above 40% crit chance, it is a solid choice. Shadow Mundus effectively cancels out almost 4 impen pieces on an enemy. Overall damage was about the same as Warrior/Apprentice with 48% crit rate (from CMX) but the reason I find it a great choice is that the damage was totally bursty in nature, it doesn't affect weak hits but makes the hard crits even harder. On NBs especially, who can crit at will with Cloak, it will effectively allow us to burst at will.

    Shadow is probably the PvP BiS mundus for Khajiits, as even Heavy armor Khajiits have very respectable crit rates, even in no-CP where crit resists will be even lower. It is also increases the damage of bleeds a lot, especially Master DW bleed, which is not affected by other Mundus.

    how do you end up the 40% chance value? One thing that bothers me when trying to theorycraft high crit builds is how to achieve high crit percentages, especially on magicka. On stam there's several options to increase critrate without gimping other stats, but on magicka its not that easy. Idk if precise destros might be a thing again

    If you talk about pvp, they are an option. The difference between weapon traits there is so tiny, it really does not matter what you are choosing. I have often compared infused, sharpened and nirnhoned. And the difference between them is not noticeable, as everything offers their own advantages.

    7% crit does definately make up for 2700 penetration.
    Edited by Dracane on February 11, 2019 10:34AM
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  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    .
    Jeezye wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    I used Shadow as my goto Mundus back in One Tamriel days in PvP.

    With new buff, I actually tested the Shadow Mundus on a friend on a PvP tank setup. If you have above 40% crit chance, it is a solid choice. Shadow Mundus effectively cancels out almost 4 impen pieces on an enemy. Overall damage was about the same as Warrior/Apprentice with 48% crit rate (from CMX) but the reason I find it a great choice is that the damage was totally bursty in nature, it doesn't affect weak hits but makes the hard crits even harder. On NBs especially, who can crit at will with Cloak, it will effectively allow us to burst at will.

    Shadow is probably the PvP BiS mundus for Khajiits, as even Heavy armor Khajiits have very respectable crit rates, even in no-CP where crit resists will be even lower. It is also increases the damage of bleeds a lot, especially Master DW bleed, which is not affected by other Mundus.

    how do you end up the 40% chance value? One thing that bothers me when trying to theorycraft high crit builds is how to achieve high crit percentages, especially on magicka. On stam there's several options to increase critrate without gimping other stats, but on magicka its not that easy. Idk if precise destros might be a thing again

    With 5 light armor and Major Prophecy you get to 30% in no CP / 42% in CP, add in Sorcerer's Exploitation passive and 1-2 crit bonuses and you'll end up at 40% - 50% without too much investment.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

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  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    Jeezye wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    I used Shadow as my goto Mundus back in One Tamriel days in PvP.

    With new buff, I actually tested the Shadow Mundus on a friend on a PvP tank setup. If you have above 40% crit chance, it is a solid choice. Shadow Mundus effectively cancels out almost 4 impen pieces on an enemy. Overall damage was about the same as Warrior/Apprentice with 48% crit rate (from CMX) but the reason I find it a great choice is that the damage was totally bursty in nature, it doesn't affect weak hits but makes the hard crits even harder. On NBs especially, who can crit at will with Cloak, it will effectively allow us to burst at will.

    Shadow is probably the PvP BiS mundus for Khajiits, as even Heavy armor Khajiits have very respectable crit rates, even in no-CP where crit resists will be even lower. It is also increases the damage of bleeds a lot, especially Master DW bleed, which is not affected by other Mundus.

    how do you end up the 40% chance value? One thing that bothers me when trying to theorycraft high crit builds is how to achieve high crit percentages, especially on magicka. On stam there's several options to increase critrate without gimping other stats, but on magicka its not that easy. Idk if precise destros might be a thing again

    I was using Bosmer StamNB to test with, which had 39% crit chance. The actual crit-rate came around 48%. The damage was very similar to that of Warrior. Anything below 40% is too unreliable.

    Yeah, for magicka, I can see it being harder to use in action. I don't think dropping Infused for Precise will be a good decision though. I didn't test it, but I think a Khajiit magNB with Caluurions/Zaans will have 60% crit chance though. Which is more than high enough for Shadow Mundus to be BiS.
    Edited by susmitds on February 11, 2019 10:36AM
  • Jeezye
    Jeezye
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Jeezye wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    I used Shadow as my goto Mundus back in One Tamriel days in PvP.

    With new buff, I actually tested the Shadow Mundus on a friend on a PvP tank setup. If you have above 40% crit chance, it is a solid choice. Shadow Mundus effectively cancels out almost 4 impen pieces on an enemy. Overall damage was about the same as Warrior/Apprentice with 48% crit rate (from CMX) but the reason I find it a great choice is that the damage was totally bursty in nature, it doesn't affect weak hits but makes the hard crits even harder. On NBs especially, who can crit at will with Cloak, it will effectively allow us to burst at will.

    Shadow is probably the PvP BiS mundus for Khajiits, as even Heavy armor Khajiits have very respectable crit rates, even in no-CP where crit resists will be even lower. It is also increases the damage of bleeds a lot, especially Master DW bleed, which is not affected by other Mundus.

    how do you end up the 40% chance value? One thing that bothers me when trying to theorycraft high crit builds is how to achieve high crit percentages, especially on magicka. On stam there's several options to increase critrate without gimping other stats, but on magicka its not that easy. Idk if precise destros might be a thing again

    If you talk about pvp, they are an option. The difference between weapon traits there is so tiny, it really does not matter what you are choosing. I have often compared infused, sharpened and nirnhoned. And the difference between them is not noticeable, as everything offers their own advantages.

    7% crit does definately make up for 2700 penetration.

    sorry I meant how do you end up with the assumption that above 40% shadow will be a sold choice. bad wording. just a rough guess?
  • Vildebill
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    Jeezye wrote: »
    Vildebill wrote: »
    Since everyone and their mothers run impen in PvP I wouldn't bother with shadow.

    this is actually a common misconeception since impen only reduces the amount of crit damage you do, additively. Running Shadow does the exact same thing in the opposite direction, increasing critical damage. In that way shadow actually counteracts the mitigation of impen, and they do calculate additively if I'm correct.

    Let's put it that way - impen doesn't reduce effectiveness of shadow mundus, but the effectiveness of crit builds overall.

    I don't really understand the misconception, nothing I said is contradictory to what you said. If many people run impen, your high crit shadow build won't deal as much damage as it would have done without impen. And since a lot of people do run impen, the damage is mitigated against a lot of people.

    Guess we have to see when the changes hits live, but I would most likely only use shadow in PvP on a Khajiit Nightblade.
    EU PC
  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    Vildebill wrote: »
    Jeezye wrote: »
    Vildebill wrote: »
    Since everyone and their mothers run impen in PvP I wouldn't bother with shadow.

    this is actually a common misconeception since impen only reduces the amount of crit damage you do, additively. Running Shadow does the exact same thing in the opposite direction, increasing critical damage. In that way shadow actually counteracts the mitigation of impen, and they do calculate additively if I'm correct.

    Let's put it that way - impen doesn't reduce effectiveness of shadow mundus, but the effectiveness of crit builds overall.

    I don't really understand the misconception, nothing I said is contradictory to what you said. If many people run impen, your high crit shadow build won't deal as much damage as it would have done without impen. And since a lot of people do run impen, the damage is mitigated against a lot of people.

    Guess we have to see when the changes hits live, but I would most likely only use shadow in PvP on a Khajiit Nightblade.

    The misconception lies in the fact that you seem to believe Impen effects high crit damage builds more than low crit damage ones. It does effect high crit chance builds more, but even so crit is still a useful enough stat that the shadow can become worth it in at least some cases (especially when considering shadowy disguise and mechanical acuity).
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • Jeezye
    Jeezye
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    Vildebill wrote: »
    Jeezye wrote: »
    Vildebill wrote: »
    Since everyone and their mothers run impen in PvP I wouldn't bother with shadow.

    this is actually a common misconeception since impen only reduces the amount of crit damage you do, additively. Running Shadow does the exact same thing in the opposite direction, increasing critical damage. In that way shadow actually counteracts the mitigation of impen, and they do calculate additively if I'm correct.

    Let's put it that way - impen doesn't reduce effectiveness of shadow mundus, but the effectiveness of crit builds overall.

    I don't really understand the misconception, nothing I said is contradictory to what you said. If many people run impen, your high crit shadow build won't deal as much damage as it would have done without impen. And since a lot of people do run impen, the damage is mitigated against a lot of people.

    Guess we have to see when the changes hits live, but I would most likely only use shadow in PvP on a Khajiit Nightblade.

    yes but the effective damage gain from shadow mundus is not mitigated by impen as a trait is what I'm trying to say. regardless if enemies run impen or not, the damage increase by shadow is the same
  • Lughlongarm
    Lughlongarm
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    To any build with over 30% crit chance, shadow will out dps lover on average.
    So ya, it's very strong on crit builds also in PVP.

    As players mentioned, the combo of khajiit+NB+shadow will be very strong.

    Impen will not counter this bonus unless players will start to stack over 4000 impen.
  • Vildebill
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    ToRelax wrote: »
    Vildebill wrote: »
    Jeezye wrote: »
    Vildebill wrote: »
    Since everyone and their mothers run impen in PvP I wouldn't bother with shadow.

    this is actually a common misconeception since impen only reduces the amount of crit damage you do, additively. Running Shadow does the exact same thing in the opposite direction, increasing critical damage. In that way shadow actually counteracts the mitigation of impen, and they do calculate additively if I'm correct.

    Let's put it that way - impen doesn't reduce effectiveness of shadow mundus, but the effectiveness of crit builds overall.

    I don't really understand the misconception, nothing I said is contradictory to what you said. If many people run impen, your high crit shadow build won't deal as much damage as it would have done without impen. And since a lot of people do run impen, the damage is mitigated against a lot of people.

    Guess we have to see when the changes hits live, but I would most likely only use shadow in PvP on a Khajiit Nightblade.

    The misconception lies in the fact that you seem to believe Impen effects high crit damage builds more than low crit damage ones. It does effect high crit chance builds more, but even so crit is still a useful enough stat that the shadow can become worth it in at least some cases (especially when considering shadowy disguise and mechanical acuity).

    Have no idea where I stated that, sounds more like your own interpretation. We seem to agree on both how it works and that it will be effective in specific scenarios.
    EU PC
  • Dr.NRG
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    I would assume its an ok but not best choice for non cp but a very op choice for CP. Thats especially true for templars and nightblades as they easily can reach almost 100 crit dmg. You gonna see 12-17k incaps and merciless again. For templars they will get a lot higer overall dps which is good but radiant might become a problem again with this fix due to the way it scales. People will spam it again at you around 40% health and on crits will hit hard and be very effective.
    .
  • jaws343
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    I already run the Shadow on my Crit Magblade. Running Mother's Sorrow, Julianos, 1 piece Zaan, 1 Piece Iceheart. Nearly every hit I do is a crit. And this buff to the mundus is only going to make it hit harder. Not to mention, my magblade is a Dunmer, so the added spell damage is going to make it even stronger next patch.
  • Xvorg
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    Derra wrote: »
    Jeezye wrote: »
    Vildebill wrote: »
    Since everyone and their mothers run impen in PvP I wouldn't bother with shadow.

    this is actually a common misconeception since impen only reduces the amount of crit damage you do, additively. Running Shadow does the exact same thing in the opposite direction, increasing critical damage. In that way shadow actually counteracts the mitigation of impen, and they do calculate additively if I'm correct.

    Let's put it that way - impen doesn't reduce effectiveness of shadow mundus, but the effectiveness of crit builds overall.

    The issue is still impregnable rendering critdmg builds for some classes entirely not reliable.

    Shadow might be interesting on NB and Templar though.

    actually in any bleed build
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  • LiquidPony
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    jaws343 wrote: »
    I already run the Shadow on my Crit Magblade. Running Mother's Sorrow, Julianos, 1 piece Zaan, 1 Piece Iceheart. Nearly every hit I do is a crit. And this buff to the mundus is only going to make it hit harder. Not to mention, my magblade is a Dunmer, so the added spell damage is going to make it even stronger next patch.

    You would do more damage with The Apprentice on Live right now. No reason at all to use The Shadow on 99% of builds.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    I already run the Shadow on my Crit Magblade. Running Mother's Sorrow, Julianos, 1 piece Zaan, 1 Piece Iceheart. Nearly every hit I do is a crit. And this buff to the mundus is only going to make it hit harder. Not to mention, my magblade is a Dunmer, so the added spell damage is going to make it even stronger next patch.

    You would do more damage with The Apprentice on Live right now. No reason at all to use The Shadow on 99% of builds.

    maybe more overall damage. but not crit hit damage, at least on mag builds. i am glad shadow is getting buffed though.

    i tested shadow and apprentice.

    for i did my magblade, who used the shadow for rp reasons, also have 17% into elfborn and have an assassination ability slotted, using full gold divines, 7*7.5% for all tests, except for one, and no stat changing sets i came up with these numbers-

    crit with shadow- 14047
    yUASvlz.jpg

    crit with apprentice- 13847
    RImbefN.jpg

    apprentice is lower then shadow.

    then i put on my normal infused helm, as the shadow with 7 divines comes out to 13.68 and the game rounds this number down to just 13% anyways
    PlT5YT7.jpg


    wearing 5 gold divines julianos, 5 gold Ineffable aether and mismatched monster helms, both gold divines. (kena shoulder and neriteth helm if that matter to you.) the reason i choose these sets is because i wanted consistent results.

    i have 44 cp into eldborn, giving me 17% crit hit damage from that, i also have Merciless Resolve on my bar, to activate the Hemorrhage passive, giving me 10% more crit hit damage.

    i did the tests, again, with major sorcery up from a pot, the shadow has crits of 15138-
    LWvz4jA.jpg

    full log here-
    899JIB3.jpg

    normal hits for 7967

    the apprentice, with major sorcery, is 15015-
    5iSA3tj.jpg

    full log here-
    VAiesOB.jpg

    normal hits for 8483

    i have a difference of 123

    again, you see that on my tests, shadow crits for more, so when people say apprentice crits for more, they are wrong, but the base would more then make up for it. at a certain point. but keep in mind shadow would impact damaging enchants, apprentice doesn't.
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 11, 2019 3:52PM
  • Jeezye
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    Ohhhh my. While everyone is complaining about khajit loosing crit chance, I'm celebrating even more crit damage modifiers :D DW daggers on NB/templar must be insane next patch
    Edited by Jeezye on February 12, 2019 10:30PM
  • Kolzki
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    Khajiit nb archer’s mind shadow snipe gankers. That’s all I’m saying.
  • ccmedaddy
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    Can't wait to put on Mechanical Acuity+Shadow on my kitty magplar and destroy everyone who thinks they're safe from crit dmg because they have 3k impen lol
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  • Minno
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    ccmedaddy wrote: »
    Can't wait to put on Mechanical Acuity+Shadow on my kitty magplar and destroy everyone who thinks they're safe from crit dmg because they have 3k impen lol

    Now everyone knows why I wanted impen buffed lol.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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  • jaws343
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    ccmedaddy wrote: »
    Can't wait to put on Mechanical Acuity+Shadow on my kitty magplar and destroy everyone who thinks they're safe from crit dmg because they have 3k impen lol

    I'll be respeccing my Khajiit stamblade into a magblade to do exactly this. Probably pair it with Bright Throat and Balorgh.
  • IlCanis_LupuslI
    IlCanis_LupuslI
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    ccmedaddy wrote: »
    Can't wait to put on Mechanical Acuity+Shadow on my kitty magplar and destroy everyone who thinks they're safe from crit dmg because they have 3k impen lol

    Was thinking the same 4 stamsorc^^
    Cp 1352
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