Is orc fine as is? (after you’ve read the wall o’ text)

Wuuffyy

So I’m going to use actual points to defend my POV rather than say they have this, this, and that... OP PLZ nerf!

I wanted to state in general that all racial changes are currently actually nerfs or close to nerfs. Ex 4% Melee/Elemental or 6% fire to 250 or so spell damage... Yeah lol. Uh huh. Not to mention that 0 new CPs are being added and top dpsers are being nerfed (dw w/infused) and then 6%-12% of a resource you have stacked transfers to 2k.

Orc currently has a passive sprint speed reduction and speed increase. This is nice but is more of a situational pvp only passive where as especially in med armor it is very easy to hit the speed cap without this.

The heath returned is very small and also based on a proc condition and then further cut in half in pvp (also doesn’t work for werewolf).

2k stamina and 250 damage is the same as altmer gets plus they can sus their lowest resource allowing them to build for less stam sus in pvp and block more in pve. As a stam build the stamina increase concept never fit with stam damage as it was very apparent early in the game that stam-only oriented dps were suppose to primarily focus on stacking raw weapon damage first to boost their base power (dk meta tanks passive, med armor, the heavy sets).

^This now fits that and they receive this as they are stacking straight damage w/o sustain to w/their racial. This of course can be remedied by sacrificing damage for sustain (the balance).

Even though the race hits the hardest now (in terms of raw power), in PVP you cannot live without sus and in pve it has been shown that passive sus over passive weapon and spell wins (ie Altmer vs breton) so if anything it should be nerfed it should be redguard and Breton as insane free sustain allows you to ignore sacrificing damage for sustain and build straight for damage.

Just wanted to share my thoughts.

Also... Sorry about the poll everyone... It was suppose to be “did you read” yes or durrrr but I didn’t know how to make it and messed it up so I just fixed it as best I could by changing the title to fit the premise. I don’t actually think the people who disagree are stupid or whatever.

Olupajmibanan

Yes.

Actually yes, you either choose Orc for raw stats or Khajit for critical. And if you can't sustain it, you still have redguard.
Seems pretty balanced to me. But, I admitt that I liked 4.3.0 Orc more.

Lughlongarm

1)Orc is the stamina Altmer just with better scale damage potential(medium armor) and more passives value(they get at least one glyph trait value over more than Altmer).

2)Orc never had stamina sustain and they preformed just fine.

3)Altmer vs Breton results are all over the place with many testers using different methodologies and getting different results. There is no clear winner in either scenario. Regardless, it's got nothing to do with Orc performance vs other Stamina races.

If anything, Orc passives are too packed right now and I expect them to get nerfed.

Wuuffyy

Lughlongarm wrote: »

1)Orc is the stamina Altmer just with better scale damage potential(medium armor) and more passives value(they get at least one glyph trait value over more than Altmer).

2)Orc never had stamina sustain and they preformed just fine.

3)Altmer vs Breton results are all over the place with many testers using different methodologies and getting different results. There is no clear winner in either scenario. Regardless, it's got nothing to do with Orc performance vs other Stamina races.

If anything, Orc passives are too packed right now and I expect them to get nerfed.

Altmer gets 10-16% increase to theirs via guild passives and such.

Vapirko

Yes.

It’s been such a headache trying to explain to people they’re over reacting. There’s even people who see the 2k stamina and don’t realize they only added 1.5k lol, not a full 2k above the 500 they had. And that beyond that they’re effectively trading 150 wpn damage for 190 stamina regen, which is better for PvP and makes them distinct from redguards in PvE. But people literally just see the new stats and immediately go red in the face. The health and speed give no edge in PvE and orcs are required to go in fast with guns blazing. Sustain is lower so it doesn’t pay to hang around. The heal might as well not exist and Health will probably still be overall lower than it is on live.

susmitds

Come on guys, you are better than this. All my work with the parses is useless if you guys ask for nerfs before the server is up for testing. We testers will do the parses again this patch. Please wait for results before judging.

sionIV

We have two options.

1. We nerf the Orc racials, because they're too strong.

2. We buff Imperials, Nords and Bosmers to bring them up to the same power

One of these two has to happen, and knowing how ZoS, it's going to be the first options.

Dunmer was the strongest stamina DD before 4.3.2 and they had 1250 Stamina and 258 Weapon Damage.

Nerftheforums

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

susmitds wrote: »

Come on guys, you are better than this. All my work with the parses is useless if you guys ask for nerfs before the server is up for testing. We testers will do the parses again this patch. Please wait for results before judging.

Imagine asking the forums for logical reasoning and data to deduct conclusions. The last 5 years didn't teach you anything?

Vapirko

Yes.

susmitds wrote: »

Come on guys, you are better than this. All my work with the parses is useless if you guys ask for nerfs before the server is up for testing. We testers will do the parses again this patch. Please wait for results before judging.

What this? A voice of reason and rationality? Must be a witch! To the gallows with you.

Vapirko

Yes.

@sionIV hey buddy, me again, want to explain how the equivalent of 150 wpn damage in max Stam, traded for 190 stamina regen will make the orc race gods?

sionIV

Vapirko wrote: »

@sionIV hey buddy, me again, want to explain how the equivalent of 150 wpn damage in max Stam, traded for 190 stamina regen will make the orc race gods?

I already did.

Best stamina DD race pre 4.3.2 was Dunmer with 1250 Stamina and 258 Weapon Damage. Now the Orc has 2000 stamina and 258 Weapon Damage, even taking the crown away from the Dunmer. So the Orc became stronger than the strongest Stamina DD, while the Bosmer, Imperial and Nord got nothing.

Vapirko

Yes.

sionIV wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

@sionIV hey buddy, me again, want to explain how the equivalent of 150 wpn damage in max Stam, traded for 190 stamina regen will make the orc race gods?

I already did.

Best stamina DD race pre 4.3.2 was Dunmer with 1250 Stamina and 258 Weapon Damage. Now the Orc has 2000 stamina and 258 Weapon Damage, even taking the crown away from the Dunmer. So the Orc became stronger than the strongest Stamina DD, while the Bosmer, Imperial and Nord got nothing.

@sionIV dude, seriously, are you forgetting that they traded sustain for this? Do you not understand how sustain plays a huge part in DPS parses? And are you just ignoring the fact that Dunmer also is getting a stamina boost? So you’re not explaining anything. You’re just picking and choosing what to look at. And once again Nords are not supposed to be top DPS, they have other strengths which are needed in the game. As I already said Bosmer and Nord could use some work, the answer is not nerfing Orcs. Really I’m amazed at how people stick to their guns, repeating incorrect and selective facts multiple times.

sionIV

Vapirko wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

@sionIV hey buddy, me again, want to explain how the equivalent of 150 wpn damage in max Stam, traded for 190 stamina regen will make the orc race gods?

I already did.

Best stamina DD race pre 4.3.2 was Dunmer with 1250 Stamina and 258 Weapon Damage. Now the Orc has 2000 stamina and 258 Weapon Damage, even taking the crown away from the Dunmer. So the Orc became stronger than the strongest Stamina DD, while the Bosmer, Imperial and Nord got nothing.

@sionIV dude, seriously, are you forgetting that they traded sustain for this? Do you not understand how sustain plays a huge part in DPS parses? And are you just ignoring the fact that Dunmer also is getting a stamina boost? So you’re not explaining anything. You’re just picking and choosing what to look at.

As you seem to have trouble understanding this, I'll try to make it simple.

Pre 4.3.2
Best Stamina DD race is Dunmer
DUNMER HAS NO SUSTAIN.

Dunmer
1250 Stamina
258 Weapon Damage

THIS WAS THE BEST RACE.

THE BEST RACE PRIOR 4.3.2 DID NOT HAVE ANY SUSTAIN.

The calculations and tests, showed that the Dunmer was the strongest DD Stamina race, even without any sustain. Now the Orc is stronger than the Dunmer, and the other stamina races didn't get any major buffs.

Wuuffyy

sionIV wrote: »

We have two options.

1. We nerf the Orc racials, because they're too strong.

2. We buff Imperials, Nords and Bosmers to bring them up to the same power

One of these two has to happen, and knowing how ZoS, it's going to be the first options.

Dunmer was the strongest stamina DD before 4.3.2 and they had 1250 Stamina and 258 Weapon Damage.

Number 2 or realize that trading that much sus for a bit more damage with diminishing returns isn’t OP idk whichever.

ezio45

Yes.

Yes, let the orcs have nice things...

kojou

Polls in general are not worth much. Biased ones are worth less than that...

IMO Orc and Altmer should be comparable opposites.

Orc:
2000 Stamina
1000 Health and 600 healing every 4 seconds
258 Weapon Damage
Sprint Cost and Movement Speed

Altmer:
2000 Magicka
645 Stamina (assuming magicka focus) every 6 seconds
258 Spell Damage
5% Damage reduction while channeling

My guess is Orc will lose the 1000 health and get the healing passive increased a little, since that is the stand out stat. Either that or Altmer should get 1000 of a max resource as well.

Also the 5% damage reduction isn't going to be very good if it is calculated like Minor Aegis... It would be better if it was a flat physical and spell resistance value like the Breton and Nord's. Plus it would be easier to quantify the value of it. It certainly isn't as good as sprint cost reduction and movement speed.

Lughlongarm

kojou wrote: »

Polls in general are not worth much. Biased ones are worth less than that...

IMO Orc and Altmer should be comparable opposites.

Orc:
2000 Stamina
1000 Health and 600 healing every 4 seconds
258 Weapon Damage
Sprint Cost and Movement Speed

Altmer:
2000 Magicka
645 Stamina (assuming magicka focus) every 6 seconds
258 Spell Damage
5% Damage reduction while channeling

My guess is Orc will lose the 1000 health and get the healing passive increased a little, since that is the stand out stat. Either that or Altmer should get 1000 of a max resource as well.

Also the 5% damage reduction isn't going to be very good if it is calculated like Minor Aegis... It would be better if it was a flat physical and spell resistance value like the Breton and Nord's. Plus it would be easier to quantify the value of it. It certainly isn't as good as sprint cost reduction and movement speed.

I actually think they will lose the 10% speed and small buff to either healing passive or sprint cost. That way, bosmers will feel special again.

Ragnaroek93

3k stats (and none of it is an offstat) is just a bit too much. Especially in PvP 1k extra health shouldn't be underrated. They should get something like 1500 stamina and 500 health and get their healing passive buffed a bit.

Azyle1

Orcs are probably a bit overtuned right now. I know we haven't done testing but it's hard for me to see how they cannot be given that dunmer and khajiit were both good last pts tests and now orc got buffed. Both Dunmer and Khajiit have little or no sustain.

kojou

Lughlongarm wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Polls in general are not worth much. Biased ones are worth less than that...

IMO Orc and Altmer should be comparable opposites.

Orc:
2000 Stamina
1000 Health and 600 healing every 4 seconds
258 Weapon Damage
Sprint Cost and Movement Speed

Altmer:
2000 Magicka
645 Stamina (assuming magicka focus) every 6 seconds
258 Spell Damage
5% Damage reduction while channeling

My guess is Orc will lose the 1000 health and get the healing passive increased a little, since that is the stand out stat. Either that or Altmer should get 1000 of a max resource as well.

Also the 5% damage reduction isn't going to be very good if it is calculated like Minor Aegis... It would be better if it was a flat physical and spell resistance value like the Breton and Nord's. Plus it would be easier to quantify the value of it. It certainly isn't as good as sprint cost reduction and movement speed.

I actually think they will lose the 10% speed and small buff to either healing passive or sprint cost. That way, bosmers will feel special again.

That would likely start a riot. The Orc movement speed is a 3rd rail for people that selected that class. Kind of like the Argonian swimming speed...

Maybe they could give Altmer a 10% movement buff while channeling and heavy attacking.

MartiniDaniels

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

susmitds wrote: »

Come on guys, you are better than this. All my work with the parses is useless if you guys ask for nerfs before the server is up for testing. We testers will do the parses again this patch. Please wait for results before judging.

Thanks for all you work susmitds, but during testing do you reach 16k HP (+1k HP to 17k we get from ebon) on each race? I mean those health is usually achieved with blue food, but if you run sustain food (camorane) you will be down on HP and so orcs 1000 HP will benefit a lot.

Azyle1

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Come on guys, you are better than this. All my work with the parses is useless if you guys ask for nerfs before the server is up for testing. We testers will do the parses again this patch. Please wait for results before judging.

Thanks for all you work susmitds, but during testing do you reach 16k HP (+1k HP to 17k we get from ebon) on each race? I mean those health is usually achieved with blue food, but if you run sustain food (camorane) you will be down on HP and so orcs 1000 HP will benefit a lot.

There is a good chance with the CP buff that orc and Khajiit could run recovery food and still hit like 16K hp.

MartiniDaniels

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

Azyle1 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Come on guys, you are better than this. All my work with the parses is useless if you guys ask for nerfs before the server is up for testing. We testers will do the parses again this patch. Please wait for results before judging.

Thanks for all you work susmitds, but during testing do you reach 16k HP (+1k HP to 17k we get from ebon) on each race? I mean those health is usually achieved with blue food, but if you run sustain food (camorane) you will be down on HP and so orcs 1000 HP will benefit a lot.

There is a good chance with the CP buff that orc and Khajiit could run recovery food and still hit like 16K hp.

Yes, and other stamraces (redguard, dunmer.. bosmer) will be forced to use health glyph on chest, which will be minus another~1k magicka/stamina in result. Same for khajiit in magicka department.

Azyle1

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Come on guys, you are better than this. All my work with the parses is useless if you guys ask for nerfs before the server is up for testing. We testers will do the parses again this patch. Please wait for results before judging.

Thanks for all you work susmitds, but during testing do you reach 16k HP (+1k HP to 17k we get from ebon) on each race? I mean those health is usually achieved with blue food, but if you run sustain food (camorane) you will be down on HP and so orcs 1000 HP will benefit a lot.

There is a good chance with the CP buff that orc and Khajiit could run recovery food and still hit like 16K hp.

Yes, and other stamraces (redguard, dunmer.. bosmer) will be forced to use health glyph on chest, which will be minus another~1k magicka/stamina in result. Same for khajiit in magicka department.

Redguard and bosmer shouldnt need it though. They can just use blue food. Dunmer yes you are correct.

MartiniDaniels

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

Azyle1 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Come on guys, you are better than this. All my work with the parses is useless if you guys ask for nerfs before the server is up for testing. We testers will do the parses again this patch. Please wait for results before judging.

Thanks for all you work susmitds, but during testing do you reach 16k HP (+1k HP to 17k we get from ebon) on each race? I mean those health is usually achieved with blue food, but if you run sustain food (camorane) you will be down on HP and so orcs 1000 HP will benefit a lot.

There is a good chance with the CP buff that orc and Khajiit could run recovery food and still hit like 16K hp.

Yes, and other stamraces (redguard, dunmer.. bosmer) will be forced to use health glyph on chest, which will be minus another~1k magicka/stamina in result. Same for khajiit in magicka department.

Redguard and bosmer shouldnt need it though. They can just use blue food. Dunmer yes you are correct.

Yes, and here we are coming to same conclusion as in ton of other threads. Altmer and dunmer completely suck, cause they don't have nor recovery, nor health. Bosmer and redguard have recovery but don't have WD so they are like 2nd class citizens but with blue food. Breton has extraordinary recovery so that's ok. Argonian, imperial and nord are "tanks" in ZOS vision.
Viva la orc and khajiit dps!

susmitds

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Come on guys, you are better than this. All my work with the parses is useless if you guys ask for nerfs before the server is up for testing. We testers will do the parses again this patch. Please wait for results before judging.

Thanks for all you work susmitds, but during testing do you reach 16k HP (+1k HP to 17k we get from ebon) on each race? I mean those health is usually achieved with blue food, but if you run sustain food (camorane) you will be down on HP and so orcs 1000 HP will benefit a lot.

@MartiniDaniels I specifically plan to do that exact test if the PTS ever comes up. I have a feeling that the 3k resources may be a bit too much comparatively but till we confirm it but conjecture without valid testing is bad feedback.

Azyle1

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Come on guys, you are better than this. All my work with the parses is useless if you guys ask for nerfs before the server is up for testing. We testers will do the parses again this patch. Please wait for results before judging.

Thanks for all you work susmitds, but during testing do you reach 16k HP (+1k HP to 17k we get from ebon) on each race? I mean those health is usually achieved with blue food, but if you run sustain food (camorane) you will be down on HP and so orcs 1000 HP will benefit a lot.

There is a good chance with the CP buff that orc and Khajiit could run recovery food and still hit like 16K hp.

Yes, and other stamraces (redguard, dunmer.. bosmer) will be forced to use health glyph on chest, which will be minus another~1k magicka/stamina in result. Same for khajiit in magicka department.

Redguard and bosmer shouldnt need it though. They can just use blue food. Dunmer yes you are correct.

Yes, and here we are coming to same conclusion as in ton of other threads. Altmer and dunmer completely suck, cause they don't have nor recovery, nor health. Bosmer and redguard have recovery but don't have WD so they are like 2nd class citizens but with blue food. Breton has extraordinary recovery so that's ok. Argonian, imperial and nord are "tanks" in ZOS vision.
Viva la orc and khajiit dps!

We will have to see. I fully trust the work of @susmitds and am excited to see what he or she puts together.

Also, as a person who uses Khajiit on all his stam DPS, I do secretly hope they stay competitive.

Lughlongarm

kojou wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Polls in general are not worth much. Biased ones are worth less than that...

IMO Orc and Altmer should be comparable opposites.

Orc:
2000 Stamina
1000 Health and 600 healing every 4 seconds
258 Weapon Damage
Sprint Cost and Movement Speed

Altmer:
2000 Magicka
645 Stamina (assuming magicka focus) every 6 seconds
258 Spell Damage
5% Damage reduction while channeling

My guess is Orc will lose the 1000 health and get the healing passive increased a little, since that is the stand out stat. Either that or Altmer should get 1000 of a max resource as well.

Also the 5% damage reduction isn't going to be very good if it is calculated like Minor Aegis... It would be better if it was a flat physical and spell resistance value like the Breton and Nord's. Plus it would be easier to quantify the value of it. It certainly isn't as good as sprint cost reduction and movement speed.

I actually think they will lose the 10% speed and small buff to either healing passive or sprint cost. That way, bosmers will feel special again.

That would likely start a riot. The Orc movement speed is a 3rd rail for people that selected that class. Kind of like the Argonian swimming speed...

Maybe they could give Altmer a 10% movement buff while channeling and heavy attacking.

You are probably right about the riots ... )

Defilted

The last improvements to Orc are nice. The max Stam hit right in the sweet spot.

Wuuffyy

.

Demra

Out of curiosity, how does orc compared to nord? I am playing stam sorc and enjoy being loyal to EP. Is there any reason to choose nord over orc for pvp?