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Snares are still way too prevalent

  • Mashille
    Mashille
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    kojou wrote: »

    Seriously though, I would love it if we could get a week with no snares (suppressed by battle spirit) in PvP content just to see what it looks like.

    I wish there would be way more experimental stuff like this. Even if it was just on PTS for a week. Like I keep wishing they'd do some kind of anniversary event where they role combat / balance back to patch 1.5 just to see how people enjoy it or get nostalgic about it.
    Edited by Mashille on January 24, 2019 9:02AM
    House Baratheon: 'Ours Is The Fury'
  • RouDeR
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    The solution is Major and Minor snare 30% and 15% so you will be slowed by 45% at most or 15% if you have Major Expedition buff.
  • FrankonPC
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    It will be a big disappointment if there is nothing to address the current slow issue in pvp. The top end speed was nerfed last patch, let's just bring up the floor for the slowest you can move.

    Anything that pushes towards a middle ground would be a huge improvement.
  • GaunterODim
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    One of the problems on slows is how they are calculated. If you have your base movespeed of 100% and have a 30% movespeed buff, if youre getting hit by a 30% snare youre under your base movespeed of 100% iirc.

    Id much prefer a set value for movespeed like 100 and have slows and movespeed buffs add to or substract from it, so that having a 30 buff and a 30 debuff would equal out to 100 again. This would also be more comprehensive than having to throw around percentages without really knowing which one to take first or whatever.
    This would obviously not work properly if every second skill would still have a slow attached to it or a mechanic that would prevent multiple slows from putting you to 0.
    Edited by GaunterODim on January 24, 2019 1:50PM
  • Minno
    Minno
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    RouDeR wrote: »
    The solution is Major and Minor snare 30% and 15% so you will be slowed by 45% at most or 15% if you have Major Expedition buff.

    We have it. Largest overrides lowest.
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  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    Mashille wrote: »
    Movespeed is still way too slow and sluggish and Snares / immobilises still run rampant through PvP. Trying to fight someone feels like you're running through treacle and most movespeed buffs feel redundant when you're snared 50% constantly.

    Snare removals / snare immunity like Shuffle lasting only 2 seconds is ridiculous as it pretty much means that if you want to have any speed at all in PvP you're spamming Forward Momentum or Shuffle constantly. Does ZOS expect us to just expend 3000 Stamina every 2 seconds so we can actually move?

    Trying to fight someone feels clunky and awkward as half the time you're awkwardly plodding towards and around them due to so many snares. It was bad in Murkmire and could really do with some addressing this patch, at least extending the immunity of snares on certain abilities and making it more accessible. There's now what? 2 abilities that make you immune to snares? And they last a fewof seconds!?

    If this problem remains PvP will continue to lose players as combat just doesn't feel fast, reactive or dynamic anymore as everyone is just walking towards each other at 1 mile per hour.

    Your right spamming abilities to be able to move freely is frustrating. Let's remove forward momentum and shuffle.
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  • Sandman929
    Sandman929
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    ZOS just keeps working on the wrong problem. The problem wasn't that players were getting too much benefit from long duration snare removal/immunity skills, or that groups were getting too much benefit from dedicated support players using snare removal/immunity skills for the group, the problem is that players have to do these things to play with decent mobility.
    Snares aren't fun for anyone on the receiving end. In a 1v1, they're an interesting mechanic, but even if you scale up as much as battlegrounds they're an absolute fun-killer...open world Cyrodiil? A nightmare.
    Edited by Sandman929 on January 24, 2019 3:31PM
    Daggerfall Covenant - Xbox One NA
  • Zer0oo
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    How about changing the swift trade to reduce snares.

    1 swift reduces the duration of snares applied to you by 0.3 sec per light or medium armor(1.5 sec for 5med/light) and the effectiveness of ground snares by 20%

    That would mean would have to specifically build for movement, be "squishy" aka medium/light and have to sacrifice 3 jewelery traits to get snare immunity.
  • Mashille
    Mashille
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    Zer0oo wrote: »
    How about changing the swift trade to reduce snares.

    1 swift reduces the duration of snares applied to you by 0.3 sec per light or medium armor(1.5 sec for 5med/light) and the effectiveness of ground snares by 20%

    That would mean would have to specifically build for movement, be "squishy" aka medium/light and have to sacrifice 3 jewelery traits to get snare immunity.

    That is exactly the kind of solution we don't want It has the same issues as a set bonus that is designed to specifically counter snares. It would either not be worth the sacrifice or pigeonhole the majority of players into having to run it.
    Edited by Mashille on January 24, 2019 3:59PM
    House Baratheon: 'Ours Is The Fury'
  • Sandman929
    Sandman929
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    Zer0oo wrote: »
    How about changing the swift trade to reduce snares.

    1 swift reduces the duration of snares applied to you by 0.3 sec per light or medium armor(1.5 sec for 5med/light) and the effectiveness of ground snares by 20%

    That would mean would have to specifically build for movement, be "squishy" aka medium/light and have to sacrifice 3 jewelery traits to get snare immunity.

    I really wouldn't want that because it's only a benefit to one specific kind of player. Just like the overkill to mobility nerfing in Murkmire only hit small group/solo players, this "fix" would only benefit them. Nobody likes their entire gaming experience under a cloud of slows, which is what we have right now. In Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds, it feels like you are slowed to some degree 100% of the time, and it's just annoying.
    IMO, roots feel strategic (although the immunity is a little too short), stuns feel strategic, snares feel strategic in a very small engagement and ramp up incredibly fast from strategic to a complete annoyance because snares are everywhere.
    Daggerfall Covenant - Xbox One NA
  • Mashille
    Mashille
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    Sandman929 wrote: »
    I really wouldn't want that because it's only a benefit to one specific kind of player. Just like the overkill to mobility nerfing in Murkmire only hit small group/solo players, this "fix" would only benefit them. Nobody likes their entire gaming experience under a cloud of slows, which is what we have right now. In Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds, it feels like you are slowed to some degree 100% of the time, and it's just annoying.
    IMO, roots feel strategic (although the immunity is a little too short), stuns feel strategic, snares feel strategic in a very small engagement and ramp up incredibly fast from strategic to a complete annoyance because snares are everywhere.

    100% Agree

    House Baratheon: 'Ours Is The Fury'
  • NBrookus
    NBrookus
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    Zer0oo wrote: »
    How about changing the swift trade to reduce snares.

    1 swift reduces the duration of snares applied to you by 0.3 sec per light or medium armor(1.5 sec for 5med/light) and the effectiveness of ground snares by 20%

    That would mean would have to specifically build for movement, be "squishy" aka medium/light and have to sacrifice 3 jewelery traits to get snare immunity.

    We have armor sets that do this. Most people don't run them because of what you have to give up for it and would likely be the same for small percentage reductions and stacking jewelry traits.

    The cost-benefit ratio, IMO has to shift on the side of the player doing the snaring. Right now there isn't a cost for most snares because they are just tacked on to skills people already use.
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  • gobestar
    gobestar
    Soul Shriven
    Whats a move speed? not asking for any reason in particular
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Crixus8000 wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Preemptive Immunity is one of the major problems with the movement system. Because as it exists, snares, when active, have to be powerful to counteract the fact that they can be completely prevented. (And no, "the just remove snares only my playstyle should be valid types are wrong") So you get a very feast/famine issue where some builds can flat out ignore the one counter to their playstyle (was way worse with 8s fm) and others are snares 60/70% permanently

    What they should instead do is reduce snare potency to 30/10% major and minor. And make immunity abilities continue to remove snares/roots, but instead of granting 100% immunity it'd half snare potency for say 20 sec. It'd be way better overall to be snared at a max of 30/40% with the option to lower it to 15/20% as opposed to 60/70% ones.

    Roots need to have a longer after removal immunity and no preemptive one. A mag build being rooted every 2s is basically ***. Up the after removal immunity to 4s and have it apply when removed any way instead of just roll dodges. So stuff like purging it would apply the 4s immunity too.

    This should be fine but everytime I think about a balance other than just removing the snare I can't see it working. Bascially pvp atm is snared = dead. Always outnumbered, too many proc sets that do ult level damage, bleeds, oblivion, 10k snipes, 25k soul assaults ect if you can't use los to help against these things then your just dead everytime.

    That is true. But the problem then is the individual overpowered mechanics, leaving one mechanic to be overpowered to counter it whilst pidgeonholing players into it isn't good idea. What if you don't want to play a run to *** build to be viable, or your class is not good for it?
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
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  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Playnice wrote: »
    I agree. I would propose to change it by making only the strongest snare take effect, overriding the other snares. So if you were hit with a 70% snare and a 40% snare then only the 70% one would affect you.

    That is how it works already lul.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Mr_Walker
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    I'm not on the PTS, but this is a constant problem in Both PvP and PvE.

    Funny thing is, when you get 2 ball groups going at each other, with rapids going, fights are an absolute blast. Fluid, and fun! Wave goodbye to that when Elseweyr hits.
  • Ragnaroek93
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    The solution would be giving all classes access to more mobility oriented builds, for example making bow builds decent on classes which aren't Nb, giving magicka builds something similar etc. It might be an unpopular opinion but snares are the only counter against Brawler builds and have a place in the game, in my opinion at least.
    The problem wasn't the speed by itself, the problem was that basically every stam build was able to achieve permanent 150% speedboni with imunity while still being allowed to run around with heavy armor sets which grant 5k wpndmg. Playing magicka builds was awfully frustrating during this time and playing builds which rely on kiting wasn't much fun either.
  • Mr_Walker
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    kojou wrote: »
    PvP Players: Snares are OP!

    ZoS: Here is Curse Breaker.

    PvP Players: Curse Breaker is OP!

    ...


    Seriously though, I would love it if we could get a week with no snares (suppressed by battle spirit) in PvP content just to see what it looks like.

    See my previous post. It's an absolute blast, win or lose. Especially in confined spaces like keeps, and/or where the tide of battle keeps shifting between 2 groups.

  • simeion
    simeion
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    ]

    Im just gonna go ahead and counter some of this. Yes the speed pot meta was out of control, no one is saying that it didn't need to be balanced and on one wants it back? When we say mobility needs to be looked at that primarily means snares right now. Next, FM is still very helpful however shuffle is not. Two seconds is so bad and shuffle is so expensive for what it provides that using mistform on a medium armor build is almost better (almost), and some good players do use it. Quick cloak is also a very viable option in place of shuffle because shuffle is trash right now. So we are not "covered." 4 seconds of immunity would not make shuffle OP, it would actually work to balance the still prevalent heavy armor meta. Having the AoE damage reduction is in a good spot neither OP or under performing and it has no bearing on any single target damage so it's very situationally useful. For magic toons you can't just go attaching snare immunity to class skills. If there is going to be snare immunity it needs to require an extra slot just like stam toons i.e. mistform but it shouldn't be attached to vampire either. DK wings is fine as is. NBs DO NOT need cloak to remove snares (mostly because of stamblades), the warden suggestion could work out.

    The ideas I gave are suggestions to get players thinking of options. It is worthless to complain about snares without having a meaningful conversation about them. Nothing wrong with having snares, long a everyone has the option to equip cleanses for snares.

    I agree NB cloak cleanse would strong. I am all ears to a better suggestion.

    Mistform is way to strong in it current form. My suggestion would put the snare and speed on 1 morph and the damage reduction on the other morph.

    AoE damage reduction is a strong mechanic. ZOS has even talked about reducing it themselves to 15%. I am just worried about 1 skill getting to strong. I agree shuffle needs a snare immunity buff.

    I just want a conversation that give ideas and if someone does not like them give a counter idea.
  • Synapsis123
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    simeion wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    ]

    Im just gonna go ahead and counter some of this. Yes the speed pot meta was out of control, no one is saying that it didn't need to be balanced and on one wants it back? When we say mobility needs to be looked at that primarily means snares right now. Next, FM is still very helpful however shuffle is not. Two seconds is so bad and shuffle is so expensive for what it provides that using mistform on a medium armor build is almost better (almost), and some good players do use it. Quick cloak is also a very viable option in place of shuffle because shuffle is trash right now. So we are not "covered." 4 seconds of immunity would not make shuffle OP, it would actually work to balance the still prevalent heavy armor meta. Having the AoE damage reduction is in a good spot neither OP or under performing and it has no bearing on any single target damage so it's very situationally useful. For magic toons you can't just go attaching snare immunity to class skills. If there is going to be snare immunity it needs to require an extra slot just like stam toons i.e. mistform but it shouldn't be attached to vampire either. DK wings is fine as is. NBs DO NOT need cloak to remove snares (mostly because of stamblades), the warden suggestion could work out.

    The ideas I gave are suggestions to get players thinking of options. It is worthless to complain about snares without having a meaningful conversation about them. Nothing wrong with having snares, long a everyone has the option to equip cleanses for snares.

    I agree NB cloak cleanse would strong. I am all ears to a better suggestion.

    Mistform is way to strong in it current form. My suggestion would put the snare and speed on 1 morph and the damage reduction on the other morph.

    AoE damage reduction is a strong mechanic. ZOS has even talked about reducing it themselves to 15%. I am just worried about 1 skill getting to strong. I agree shuffle needs a snare immunity buff.

    I just want a conversation that give ideas and if someone does not like them give a counter idea.

    In a thread complaining about snares being too powerful you want to remove one of the only good ones magicka has left. With rapids gone we are left with either two hander forward momentum or mist form. Both of these options pigeonhole us into either having to use a two hander instead of a resto staff/snb or taking way more fire damage and not having any life regen.
    Edited by Synapsis123 on January 25, 2019 2:10AM
  • Mashille
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    In a thread complaining about snares being too powerful you want to remove one of the only good ones magicka has left. With rapids gone we are left with either two hander forward momentum or mist form. Both of these options pigeonhole us into either having to use a two hander instead of a resto staff/snb or taking way more fire damage and not having any life regen.

    You make some good points. I think Mist is fine as it is. The main problem is how many people seem to be forced into using it purely because of how controlling snares are currently.
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  • Kadoin
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    gobestar wrote: »
    Whats a move speed? not asking for any reason in particular

    Something players had too much of in a previous patch and now they are crying over it being nerfed because they can't run lightning fast with their max resist stam builds stacking a bunch of damage anymore.
  • ZonasArch
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    xii-santa wrote: »
    Glue my feet to the floor and call it PvP.

    We can't #$%!@&;* move.

    That's exactly how I felt jumping into BG, so I built a stamDK that deals damage while standing, and I almost only move around targeting critical charge at other enemies, and only then I pop momentum to keep running, if I have to. Works great for my play style.
  • Mashille
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    Kadoin wrote: »
    Something players had too much of in a previous patch and now they are crying over it being nerfed because they can't run lightning fast with their max resist stam builds stacking a bunch of damage anymore.

    giphy.gif

    You realise snares affect Magicka builds even worse right?


    House Baratheon: 'Ours Is The Fury'
  • Kadoin
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    Mashille wrote: »
    Kadoin wrote: »
    Something players had too much of in a previous patch and now they are crying over it being nerfed because they can't run lightning fast with their max resist stam builds stacking a bunch of damage anymore.

    giphy.gif

    You realise snares affect Magicka builds even worse right?


    I'm always snared so I don't care. Got used to it and honestly can't understand the whining.
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    simeion wrote: »
    I love how snares are an bigger issue now since stamina based characters and players have come down to the level of magic based characters and players. While I agree snares and root needs a better immunity and cleanse system than there current form. Movement speed does not need a rework unless we are going add time to current skills that have major expedition.

    Speed pots need to stay the way they are. In a 1v1 it is not right for a stamina based toon to have 100% up time on major expedition when they have the stamina to sprint versus magic toon that does not have the stamina pool to sprint. That being said 1vX and small scale pvp have been hurt by the reduction times of major expedition.

    I like the idea of major and minor snares based on what the values are. If the values are to large it can be worse than the current system. I favor a 30% major snare and 15% minor.

    CP is one way to fix this. Unfortunately our current system of cp players do not have to make tough decisions. I would love to see CP have a node where you reduce snare effects by 0-50%, so the snare is still applied just not as strong. Then we run across the issue of no-cp PvP, So each class needs to have a way to remove snares and roots.

    Snare and root removal need to be built in class kits. DK is the only class that is guaranteed snare removal. Templars can cleanse them but Extended Ritual cleanse 5 negative effects and I dont know it priorities what effects to cleanse. Warden are the next class that has a chance to cleanse snares, but once again the the netch priority is not know to me and it is only 1 effect.

    Since most stamina toons have have access to snare removal using either Forward Momentum and Shuffle they are covered. I think Shuffle need it snare immunity increased but not until it is reworked because a skill wit major evasion and 4 second snare immunity would be real strong.

    For magic based toons:
    1: Sorc remove the major exp or Lighting Form and add snare removal.
    2: Templar has Ritual and they just might have to recast to get the snare off based on what was cleansed.
    3: Dragon Knight has wings maybe just increase the time.
    4. Nightblade maybe remove the auto crit to from cloak and add the clease back onto it. This would be strong option. The other idea is to remove the heal of siphoning strikes and add snare immunity. there are a few more options.
    5. Wardens can have the snare reduction removed from there passive and have snare immunity add to Crystallized Slab. This make the Warden choose between Major Heroism and Snare immunity.

    By all mean I dont have the answer for everything but This is a very important topic for all players in PvP and PvE.

    i wouldn't add it to Crystallised Slab. I'd add it to deceptive predator. we have another rework in mind for Slab with the same general idea, sacrifice major heroism but also projectile shield and mag sustain for "x" the idea is a full DPS skill though with no defensive elements. so it's really a matter of defence or offence.
    Edited by ESO_Nightingale on January 25, 2019 11:27AM
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  • ESO_Nightingale
    ESO_Nightingale
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    we just need more counterplay. nerfing snares would really screw with PvE. especially because they are actually okay. we just need a little more access to removal/immunity. nerfing snares would make them almost worthless.
    Edited by ESO_Nightingale on January 25, 2019 11:37AM
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  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    we just more counterplay. nerfing snares would really screw with PvE. especially because they are actually okay. we just need a little more access to removal/immunity. nerfing snares would make them almost worthless.

    Snares was fine before ZOS went overboard with all the mobility nerfs. And how on earth would a nerf to snares affect PvE??? Snares has literally 0 practical usage in PvE.
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  • ESO_Nightingale
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    we just more counterplay. nerfing snares would really screw with PvE. especially because they are actually okay. we just need a little more access to removal/immunity. nerfing snares would make them almost worthless.

    Snares was fine before ZOS went overboard with all the mobility nerfs. And how on earth would a nerf to snares affect PvE??? Snares has literally 0 practical usage in PvE.

    Tanks use snares to help control a group of adds to round them up. Templars and Nightblades have to use snares more effectively than any other tanks as they don't have an AoE immobilisation tool.
    Edited by ESO_Nightingale on January 25, 2019 11:39AM
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  • biggda76
    biggda76
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    we just more counterplay. nerfing snares would really screw with PvE. especially because they are actually okay. we just need a little more access to removal/immunity. nerfing snares would make them almost worthless.

    Snares was fine before ZOS went overboard with all the mobility nerfs. And how on earth would a nerf to snares affect PvE??? Snares has literally 0 practical usage in PvE.

    Tanks use snares to help control a group of adds to round them up. Templars and Nightblades have to use snares more effectively than any other tanks as they don't have an AoE immobilisation tool.

    N O
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