Snares are still way too prevalent

gobestar

friendly reminder that move speed is still not fixed wowowow

MaxJrFTW

MAKE IT HAPPEN!!! #iwanttomove

DEATH TO THE SNARE META!

GaunterODim

I support the wish for more changes to movespeed.
The terrible state of it that came with murkmire basicly made me quit eso and not pvp anymore at all because the main tactic feels like slowing someone down and then jumping on him until death.

Literally only coming online twice a week or so when someone needs help in a trial or farming a set and I really would like to play more, but the environment in pvp is just not fun to me anymore.
#Iwanttomove
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam

labambao

Y tho

BiohazardRevenant

I agree with the snare and movement speed issue. Why if there are 100 different ways to instantly root/snare a player isn't there more option to clear the snare especially for magicka classes, stamina ya they can dodge roll out of it into another slow or snare but lets say abilities that granted major/minor expedition also granted an immunity for a time to give you a chance to engage. Forward momentum has to be spammed all the time if you want to stay free which means your not doing anything but that and dodge rolling to get to an area you can move around in then snare is re-applied. You are forcing stamina players to spam forward momentum/shuffle and forcing them to use 2-Handed/Medium Armor in the current meta. Another great approach would be a diminishing return on snares which would be easier than reworking multiple abilities (although I still think there should be more ways to clear snares/roots). These are all things I have played through in other MMO's that work.

Playnice

I agree. I would propose to change it by making only the strongest snare take effect, overriding the other snares. So if you were hit with a 70% snare and a 40% snare then only the 70% one would affect you.

Mashille

labambao wrote: »

Y tho

Remember how Swift already got nerfed and all major expedition buffs got reduced to 4 seconds?

labambao

Mashille wrote: »

labambao wrote: »

Y tho

Remember how Swift already got nerfed and all major expedition buffs got reduced to 4 seconds?

Yes, buddy. Now I play without any major exp, without any gapcloser in melee. I just spam momentum every 4 sec. And I am ok.

Mashille

labambao wrote: »

Yes, buddy. Now I play without any major exp, without any gapcloser in melee. I just spam momentum every 4 sec. And I am ok.

Flamingfunk

Any damage ability with an added snare should have the snare part reduced to 10%. Snares are too strong, they are too easy to apply and they take away much of the fun with PvP.

gobestar

TLDR AT THE END

Diminishing returns or dropping percentage stats for base stats (something they seem to be doing to bring easier calculations and easier balance) in my mind feel like the best ways to balance the move speed issue. Could even be a combination of both, for instance (WoWs diminishing returns):

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Diminishing return.

Here is how it works:

You get snared once, it lasts the full duration(8 seconds).

You get snared a second time within 20 seconds of the first snare, it lasts half(4 seconds).

You get snared a third time within 20 seconds of the 2nd snare, and it will last just 2 seconds.

Then there won't be a 4th time, you will be automatically immune to snares for 20 seconds after the third snare ends. If 20 seconds is too much in ESO, then reduce it by a bit. Either way, something has to be done.

In theory, say we give movespeed a base value of 1000. Then adding that to a diminishing return system:

You get snared once, decreasing your speed by 300, it lasts the full duration(8 seconds).

You get snared a second time within 20 seconds of the first snare, your move speed is decreased by 150 and it lasts half as long (4 seconds).

You get snared a third time within 20 seconds of the 2nd snare, your move speed is decreased by 75 and it will last just 2 seconds.

Then still cap it at that meaning the lowest your move speed could ever be would be 475 (just under half speed) and that speed would last only 2 seconds. You could obviously adjust the values until you found something that felt comfortable to play and taking away the percentages makes it very easy to adjust and test. I'm not sure how it works in WoW or what your "immunity" looks but I imagine after having the third level of snare applied you can't have it reapplied for a time following. This would make snares very effective at the beginning of the fight and still feel impactful, but it rewards the players ability to survive the snares by allowing them a brief immunity to that stage to react and reposition (including an immunity to the strongest snare of 300 for a time after the full duration has concluded). This approach also makes it appealing to build into speed, such as using the swift jewelry. If a gold level jewelry piece were to grant a 150 point bonus in speed, running three swift jewelry would grant you a 450 bonus and a base movement speed of 1450. Given these values, a fully snared player in all gold swift jewelry will move at a speed of 925. This value is still lower than a player who is not snared who has invested nothing into speed which is, as such, doing the intended job of a snare without making the player who chose to invest so heavily into speed feel like their investment did not pay off.

Lastly I don't think it can be understated the oversaturation of accessibility to snares. There was a post earlier that listed every skill in the game that applies a snare and the list is staggering. Snares should be a decision, just as roots are. Should there be easier access to snares then roots? Yes. Roots are better at neutralizing a players ability to move. To have skills dedicated to applying snares more abundant than skills dedicated applying roots makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that the chilled PASSIVE can apply a root passively. Or that wall of elements should have the ability to snare, root (via the same passive with ice staff), and still do the damage that it does. What doesn't make sense is that crippling grasp on a Nightblade does damage when applied, does damage over time, applies a snare, and gives you move speed. The severity in which these skills are perceived is a matter of opinion, as are possible adjustments, but in my mind they do too much. As an example of an adjustment, cripple gives us a good template for an example. To me, a balanced solution would be to give the crippling grasp the ability to apply a root and snare while maintaining a weak dot and no longer giving you move speed so that it would read something like:

Crippling Grasp: Sap an enemy’s agility, dealing 1410 Magic Damage over 8 seconds rooting them and reducing their Movement Speed by x.

Where as Debilitate could be given the bonus damage so that it reads something like:

Debilitate: Sap an enemy’s health, dealing 238 Magic Damage and an additional 1410 Magic Damage over 8 seconds.

TLDR:
Balance isn't easy and nothing we say is likely to hold any traction with any of the developers in the long run. However it is not hard to begin thinking and testing solutions (coming from someone who brainstormed just now for like 20 min and came up with a possible solution). MOVE SPEED SUCKS RIGHT NOW. Bottom line. There is way too many skills that apply snares passively when snaring should be considered a mechanic and a choice, not a passive reality. Rework move speed. Rework how snaring is applied. Rework skills with an intention that's CONSISTENT (even if I don't agree with it because I'm only one player).

Koolio

Got out ran today while on a medium armor Stamplar by a MDK.

Was running 2 swift and quick cloak with purify. Didn’t matter because he just whipped me in the back the whole time.

ccmedaddy

simeion wrote: »

I love how snares are an bigger issue now since stamina based characters and players have come down to the level of magic based characters and players. While I agree snares and root needs a better immunity and cleanse system than there current form. Movement speed does not need a rework unless we are going add time to current skills that have major expedition.

Speed pots need to stay the way they are. In a 1v1 it is not right for a stamina based toon to have 100% up time on major expedition when they have the stamina to sprint versus magic toon that does not have the stamina pool to sprint. That being said 1vX and small scale pvp have been hurt by the reduction times of major expedition.

I like the idea of major and minor snares based on what the values are. If the values are to large it can be worse than the current system. I favor a 30% major snare and 15% minor.

CP is one way to fix this. Unfortunately our current system of cp players do not have to make tough decisions. I would love to see CP have a node where you reduce snare effects by 0-50%, so the snare is still applied just not as strong. Then we run across the issue of no-cp PvP, So each class needs to have a way to remove snares and roots.

Snare and root removal need to be built in class kits. DK is the only class that is guaranteed snare removal. Templars can cleanse them but Extended Ritual cleanse 5 negative effects and I dont know it priorities what effects to cleanse. Warden are the next class that has a chance to cleanse snares, but once again the the netch priority is not know to me and it is only 1 effect.

Since most stamina toons have have access to snare removal using either Forward Momentum and Shuffle they are covered. I think Shuffle need it snare immunity increased but not until it is reworked because a skill wit major evasion and 4 second snare immunity would be real strong.

For magic based toons:
1: Sorc remove the major exp or Lighting Form and add snare removal.
2: Templar has Ritual and they just might have to recast to get the snare off based on what was cleansed.
3: Dragon Knight has wings maybe just increase the time.
4. Nightblade maybe remove the auto crit to from cloak and add the clease back onto it. This would be strong option. The other idea is to remove the heal of siphoning strikes and add snare immunity. there are a few more options.
5. Wardens can have the snare reduction removed from there passive and have snare immunity add to Crystallized Slab. This make the Warden choose between Major Heroism and Snare immunity.

By all mean I dont have the answer for everything but This is a very important topic for all players in PvP and PvE.

Excellent post. I agree that all classes should have some form of snare removal and immunity. In the current state of the game, there's no excuse for this discrepancy anymore.

Synapsis123

Whenever I go to cyrodiil I get locked down in snares by zergs spamming gap closers on me and I can't even run away. Gap closer snare shouldn't be a thing. There is ZERO counter to it.

For those who are unaware of how it works, gap closer snare is a 75% snare for .75 seconds applied to your target whenever you use any gap closer. The snare from it ignores snare immunity. Even if someone has rapids going and they are sprinting you still snare them by 75%. If two people are spamming gap closers on you then you are basically rooted in place.

Minno

Mashille wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

How about something like this?


All snares that get applied to an enemy character from long range (reflective light, flying blade) should be reduced from 40% to 20%.

All snares that get applied to an enemy character from melee range (stampede) should be reduced from 60% to 35%

All ground targeted snares (cinder storm, winterborn, initial caltrops hit) should be reduced from 70% to 60%.
Warden impaling shards & morphs increased from 30 to 60%, to be same as cinder storm.

Sleet Storm and morphs reduced from 70% to 35%
DK warmth passive increase from 30% to 35%


Major Expedition should be reduced from 30% to 25%. (so it's slightly less than the snares from melee toons, can be made up for in other area's like swift jewelry etc.)
Minor Expedition stays unchanged at 10%


Took me like 5 mins to come up with this, so not perfect and you would need to make sure abilities still land etc... but like seriously it can't be that hard to balance it can it?

I'm not too sure about that. When reading it through, snares still sound very prevalent and reducing Major Expedition down to 25% seems unneeded. With the idea you have, in any fight larger than a 1 v 1, snare AOE's and Snare abilities would still be on you pretty much 100% of the time, and that's one of the main issues, the fact that you're almost always perma snared, no matter what the values of the snares area. So the problem isn't really solved with this. With this the fact that some snares are still as high as 60%, in fights you can guarantee that there's are gonna affect you regularly, meaning the problem is the same as before. you It's always good to hear ideas though.

well the problem the numerous snares are all 40-60% from 1-2 skills but you need a mundas+shift+major expedition to almost void the snare. Snares should work the same way or increase the speed sources again.

The other issue is the highest overrides the lowest, but people keep saying that suggests you get hit by a 30+40+60 into this immovable fictional beast of a feedback. Heres what is happening:
- 70% is fine on ground targeted AOE; just roll dodge out of the AOE and reposition. But I would have this reduced to buff those spells (caltrops, DK aoe heal, etc). Drop to 60%.
- 60% is TOO high on the abilities they are on (stampede, heroic slash, frost wall of elements etc). I would rather this get dropped to 40% and boost the offense of each spell. Like frost wall of elements could be given minor maim on all targets that persists for x seconds after they leave and stampede provide penetration. Or in the case of heroic slash, just remove the 60% because it has minor maim+minor heroism on demand.
- some 40% snares have POWERFUL offensive/defensive buffs (rending slashes ignores armor, acid spray/bombard are undodgeable with an immobilize/dot, nightblade gap closer lol etc). Should drop many of these to 30% pending how easy they are to spam.


30%-40% seems reasonable with how they are cast, because you don't waste resources like sprinting each second+locked out of your abilities, and major expedition is 30% so the 2 cancel each other out anyway. And the 40% is canceled by steed+major expedition for minimal offensive stat dropping. Then with swift you trade 3x resources (2520 max res which is about 240 sd/wd converted) for 15% speed, which cancels out 50-60% snares if you use 3x swift with major expedition and steed. Sprint gets you closer to cap, but because it costs resources per second and locks you of your toon's function, it should NEVER be countered by snares in any form.

And according to the current offensive/speed conversion, we can say 5% speed = 840 max stat = 80 spell/weapon dmg. If you drop a 70% snare to 60%, it should get back 160 sd/wd worth of benefit. Some abilities already have this benefit so you can justify the nerfs mentioned above.

You can also do this, if you feel the snares can't be lowered:
- increase cost of sprint slightly
- provides snare immunity on sprinting similar to cloak "turning off" dots.
- punishes those that do not sprint/sprint too much but rewards those that sprint enough to avoid snares but let a second or two tick

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Buff movement speeds and mount speeds

MyNameIsElias

I am here on behalf of Lord FENGRUSH, please fix movement speed!

labambao

@Minno roll dodge out of templar sacred ground

NBrookus

Playnice wrote: »

I agree. I would propose to change it by making only the strongest snare take effect, overriding the other snares. So if you were hit with a 70% snare and a 40% snare then only the 70% one would affect you.

@Playnice That's already how it works now.

Koolio

Synapsis123 wrote: »

Whenever I go to cyrodiil I get locked down in snares by zergs spamming gap closers on me and I can't even run away. Gap closer snare shouldn't be a thing. There is ZERO counter to it.

For those who are unaware of how it works, gap closer snare is a 75% snare for .75 seconds applied to your target whenever you use any gap closer. The snare from it ignores snare immunity. Even if someone has rapids going and they are sprinting you still snare them by 75%. If two people are spamming gap closers on you then you are basically rooted in place.

I can’t remember which patch but I think it was reduced to 50% but still.

Now I can say on Ps4 NA almost nobody runs gap closers. They just don’t work. Almost like they have a cast time.

You have to keep your reticle over them from the time you activate the move until the GCD of the beginning portion of the animation plays or it fails.

Good luck if your target is moving and the button isn’t L1 or R1

gobestar

Koolio wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

Whenever I go to cyrodiil I get locked down in snares by zergs spamming gap closers on me and I can't even run away. Gap closer snare shouldn't be a thing. There is ZERO counter to it.

For those who are unaware of how it works, gap closer snare is a 75% snare for .75 seconds applied to your target whenever you use any gap closer. The snare from it ignores snare immunity. Even if someone has rapids going and they are sprinting you still snare them by 75%. If two people are spamming gap closers on you then you are basically rooted in place.

I can’t remember which patch but I think it was reduced to 50% but still.

Now I can say on Ps4 NA almost nobody runs gap closers. They just don’t work. Almost like they have a cast time.

You have to keep your reticle over them from the time you activate the move until the GCD of the beginning portion of the animation plays or it fails.

Good luck if your target is moving and the button isn’t L1 or R1

what are they doing to you guys FeelsBadMan




#Justice4Consoles

Playnice

NBrookus wrote: »

Playnice wrote: »

I agree. I would propose to change it by making only the strongest snare take effect, overriding the other snares. So if you were hit with a 70% snare and a 40% snare then only the 70% one would affect you.

@Playnice That's already how it works now.

Based on other threads I've seen, my impression of the way it currently works is you get snared for say 60%, then you get snared again by let's say 50%. The total amount of snare would equal (1-(0.6*0.5)) or just 70%. Is this not how it works?

ScorpionReaver

Zenimax PLZ !

I know this all too well. Fighting whilst wading through molasses

Vapirko

simeion wrote: »

I love how snares are an bigger issue now since stamina based characters and players have come down to the level of magic based characters and players. While I agree snares and root needs a better immunity and cleanse system than there current form. Movement speed does not need a rework unless we are going add time to current skills that have major expedition.

Speed pots need to stay the way they are. In a 1v1 it is not right for a stamina based toon to have 100% up time on major expedition when they have the stamina to sprint versus magic toon that does not have the stamina pool to sprint. That being said 1vX and small scale pvp have been hurt by the reduction times of major expedition.

I like the idea of major and minor snares based on what the values are. If the values are to large it can be worse than the current system. I favor a 30% major snare and 15% minor.

CP is one way to fix this. Unfortunately our current system of cp players do not have to make tough decisions. I would love to see CP have a node where you reduce snare effects by 0-50%, so the snare is still applied just not as strong. Then we run across the issue of no-cp PvP, So each class needs to have a way to remove snares and roots.

Snare and root removal need to be built in class kits. DK is the only class that is guaranteed snare removal. Templars can cleanse them but Extended Ritual cleanse 5 negative effects and I dont know it priorities what effects to cleanse. Warden are the next class that has a chance to cleanse snares, but once again the the netch priority is not know to me and it is only 1 effect.

Since most stamina toons have have access to snare removal using either Forward Momentum and Shuffle they are covered. I think Shuffle need it snare immunity increased but not until it is reworked because a skill wit major evasion and 4 second snare immunity would be real strong.

For magic based toons:
1: Sorc remove the major exp or Lighting Form and add snare removal.
2: Templar has Ritual and they just might have to recast to get the snare off based on what was cleansed.
3: Dragon Knight has wings maybe just increase the time.
4. Nightblade maybe remove the auto crit to from cloak and add the clease back onto it. This would be strong option. The other idea is to remove the heal of siphoning strikes and add snare immunity. there are a few more options.
5. Wardens can have the snare reduction removed from there passive and have snare immunity add to Crystallized Slab. This make the Warden choose between Major Heroism and Snare immunity.

By all mean I dont have the answer for everything but This is a very important topic for all players in PvP and PvE.

Im just gonna go ahead and counter some of this. Yes the speed pot meta was out of control, no one is saying that it didn't need to be balanced and on one wants it back? When we say mobility needs to be looked at that primarily means snares right now. Next, FM is still very helpful however shuffle is not. Two seconds is so bad and shuffle is so expensive for what it provides that using mistform on a medium armor build is almost better (almost), and some good players do use it. Quick cloak is also a very viable option in place of shuffle because shuffle is trash right now. So we are not "covered." 4 seconds of immunity would not make shuffle OP, it would actually work to balance the still prevalent heavy armor meta. Having the AoE damage reduction is in a good spot neither OP or under performing and it has no bearing on any single target damage so it's very situationally useful. For magic toons you can't just go attaching snare immunity to class skills. If there is going to be snare immunity it needs to require an extra slot just like stam toons i.e. mistform but it shouldn't be attached to vampire either. DK wings is fine as is. NBs DO NOT need cloak to remove snares (mostly because of stamblades), the warden suggestion could work out.

Sahidom

@Mashille I agree with you movement speed is an effective counter to move out of range or AoE before the snare/immobilization/stun effect lands; but I feel this is just a "patch fix" and not really a solution to the problem.

That said, I do believe ZOS does need to reevaluate how they want snares/immobilization/stuns, and the counter-plays, more thoroughly; more particularly, how to address multiple snare/immobilization/stun effects can be layered (or evoked back-to-back from another effect) for an effective snare/immobilization/stun lock on players without opportunity to break/escape said effects. I understand their an integrated component to encourage dynamic PVP encounters; however, under the current Zerg meta of PVP, the effects quickly become OP.

NBrookus

Playnice wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Playnice wrote: »

I agree. I would propose to change it by making only the strongest snare take effect, overriding the other snares. So if you were hit with a 70% snare and a 40% snare then only the 70% one would affect you.

@Playnice That's already how it works now.

Based on other threads I've seen, my impression of the way it currently works is you get snared for say 60%, then you get snared again by let's say 50%. The total amount of snare would equal (1-(0.6*0.5)) or just 70%. Is this not how it works?

It used to work that way, but was changed ~9(?) months ago.

kojou

PvP Players: Snares are OP!

ZoS: Here is Curse Breaker.

PvP Players: Curse Breaker is OP!

...


Seriously though, I would love it if we could get a week with no snares (suppressed by battle spirit) in PvP content just to see what it looks like.

Crixus8000

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Seriously though, I would love it if we could get a week with no snares (suppressed by battle spirit) in PvP content just to see what it looks like.

Heaven

Minno

labambao wrote: »

@Minno roll dodge out of templar sacred ground

If you avoid it in the first place you don't have to

biggda76

labambao wrote: »

Minno roll dodge out of templar sacred ground

What platform do you play on?