Another massive nerf to thieving (and mat farming)

FrancisCrawford

Once again, a PvP nerf is going to make PvE less fun.


Rapid Maneuvers' ability to break guards' and mobs' snares is a huge part of the thieving toolkit. That's now being taken away.

This is also a problem for anybody who wants to travel to crafting mat locations, otherwise farm mats, or generally move around in the overworld.

John_Falstaff

I'm for most part concerned about other uses - like slotting in Rapid Maneuvers to help traversing labyrinth in vCoS HM fight and some other places.

IronWooshu

I can escape from guards just roll dodging they are so unbelievably easy that its a shame they are even guards, what good are they when they cant catch any criminals. I am really curious what their success rate is from catching fleeing criminals. I've died to a guard once that I can remember when I was level 5 and thats only because my game spiked and loading screened me only to come back dead.

This is such a non factor to the health of the game. Maybe they fix the crime system and make it more fun first.

FrancisCrawford

Does Forward Momentum still give removal/immunity to snares & immobalizations? I guess that could work, and turn this into the kind of nerf one can still build around.

Lord_Eomer

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I'm for most part concerned about other uses - like slotting in Rapid Maneuvers to help traversing labyrinth in vCoS HM fight and some other places.

There are other options to purge snare not just rapid.

Rapid had to nerf as was abused by Ballgroups.

Mayrael

OMG... Serious nerf? R.I.P. thieves! This is unplayable!

But seriously, it's a good change, smart people will find way around.

John_Falstaff

@Lord_Dexter , which is the option to both give Expedition and purge snares? Preferably with stamina cost.

ZonasArch

I'm not a thief so I can't say anything there, but as for Mat farming, I run coward's gear, so my Sprint is always major expedited.

Could also work for thieves too, if you think about it. Just use other form of purging. Momentum or Purge or that Templar shiny big bubble that purges too(my to go option as I have 5 Templars or if 13 characters in 2 servers :P)

Feanor

If ZOS starts to balance the game around RP and farming, they might just as well close the servers.

SodanTok

Trully massive nerf to the playstyle that requests you to dodge 5 times by door, drink invisibility potion, press cloak or swim 2m in water to avoid any chase.

Facefister

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Once again, a PvP nerf is going to make PvE less fun.


Rapid Maneuvers' ability to break guards' and mobs' snares is a huge part of the thieving toolkit. That's now being taken away.

This is also a problem for anybody who wants to travel to crafting mat locations, otherwise farm mats, or generally move around in the overworld.

Equip bow, time a roll dodge, easy escape.

anitajoneb17_ESO

SodanTok wrote: »

Trully massive nerf to the playstyle that requests you to dodge 5 times by door, drink invisibility potion, press cloak or swim 2m in water to avoid any chase.

That's not the point.
The point is that non-competitive players/playstyles (majority) must, ONCE AGAIN, adjust, adapt, change, just for the sake of the minority of competitive players in PvP or PvE who optimize and abuse mechanics, systems and abilities up to the point where they get broken and need to be nerfed. Forcing changes onto EVERYONE.

In this case there were many ways to nerf ballgroups in PvP othe r than changing the entire ability for everyone.

That's exactly what I was fearing when they set up the class rep system : that things would be changed according to the top 1% of players.
ZOS, you really need someone to represent the "normal" players. Those who enjoy the sceneries, the dailies, the RPing, the trading, the farming, the thieving, etc... who get hit again and again by all the changes aimed only for the top.

SodanTok

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Trully massive nerf to the playstyle that requests you to dodge 5 times by door, drink invisibility potion, press cloak or swim 2m in water to avoid any chase.

That's not the point.
The point is that non-competitive players/playstyles (majority) must, ONCE AGAIN, adjust, adapt, change, just for the sake of the minority of competitive players in PvP or PvE who optimize and abuse mechanics, systems and abilities up to the point where they get broken and need to be nerfed. Forcing changes onto EVERYONE.

Duh. Balance is done around competition.

anitajoneb17_ESO

SodanTok wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Trully massive nerf to the playstyle that requests you to dodge 5 times by door, drink invisibility potion, press cloak or swim 2m in water to avoid any chase.

That's not the point.
The point is that non-competitive players/playstyles (majority) must, ONCE AGAIN, adjust, adapt, change, just for the sake of the minority of competitive players in PvP or PvE who optimize and abuse mechanics, systems and abilities up to the point where they get broken and need to be nerfed. Forcing changes onto EVERYONE.

Duh. Balance is done around competition.

Yup. But they could forget about balance and competition and focus on the 99% of players who play for fun, couldn't they ? After all, ESO isn't a truly competitive game, it's an RPG. It will never be an e-sport title, it will never be perfectly balanced, and the "play-for-fun" crowd is the one who pays the bills. Unfortunately, they also know that we are endlessly patient and resilient...

Feanor

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Trully massive nerf to the playstyle that requests you to dodge 5 times by door, drink invisibility potion, press cloak or swim 2m in water to avoid any chase.

That's not the point.
The point is that non-competitive players/playstyles (majority) must, ONCE AGAIN, adjust, adapt, change, just for the sake of the minority of competitive players in PvP or PvE who optimize and abuse mechanics, systems and abilities up to the point where they get broken and need to be nerfed. Forcing changes onto EVERYONE.

In this case there were many ways to nerf ballgroups in PvP othe r than changing the entire ability for everyone.

That's exactly what I was fearing when they set up the class rep system : that things would be changed according to the top 1% of players.
ZOS, you really need someone to represent the "normal" players. Those who enjoy the sceneries, the dailies, the RPing, the trading, the farming, the thieving, etc... who get hit again and again by all the changes aimed only for the top.

The point is that adjustments are far easier for non-competitive players. I mean, seriously - if you are thieving or farming, equip Night Mother's (thieving) or Fjord (farming), both are medium armour, and if you have oh so many problems with snares from mobs just press Shuffle. Boom, snare removal and immunity. It's not rocket science.

SodanTok

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Trully massive nerf to the playstyle that requests you to dodge 5 times by door, drink invisibility potion, press cloak or swim 2m in water to avoid any chase.

That's not the point.
The point is that non-competitive players/playstyles (majority) must, ONCE AGAIN, adjust, adapt, change, just for the sake of the minority of competitive players in PvP or PvE who optimize and abuse mechanics, systems and abilities up to the point where they get broken and need to be nerfed. Forcing changes onto EVERYONE.

Duh. Balance is done around competition.

Yup. But they could forget about balance and competition and focus on the 99% of players who play for fun, couldn't they ?

They could, but they arent stupid so they wont. Your ability to outsmart mindless AI that is programmed to stop after 50m of running or when you change instance doesnt require attention of balance team.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Feanor wrote: »

The point is that adjustments are far easier for non-competitive players. I mean, seriously - if you are thieving or farming, equip Night Mother's (thieving) or Fjord (farming), both are medium armour, and if you have oh so many problems with snares from mobs just press Shuffle. Boom, snare removal and immunity. It's not rocket science.

Again, that's not the point. I knew someone would turn up and say "all you have to do is.... and that's easy".
I could in return say "If you want competition and true balance just leave ESO and go play Fortnite... that's easy".
Right ?
Oh, but you don't want to... fine. We don't want to have changes forced upon us either. We don't want to carry 10 differents sets of gear (you know farmers have inventory issues, right ?) when pressing 1 ability works so well. But, no, they take it away from us for... other people's sake.

Feanor

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The point is that adjustments are far easier for non-competitive players. I mean, seriously - if you are thieving or farming, equip Night Mother's (thieving) or Fjord (farming), both are medium armour, and if you have oh so many problems with snares from mobs just press Shuffle. Boom, snare removal and immunity. It's not rocket science.

Again, that's not the point. I knew someone would turn up and say "all you have to do is.... and that's easy".
I could in return say "If you want competition and true balance just leave ESO and go play Fortnite... that's easy".
Right ?
Oh, but you don't want to... fine. We don't want to have changes forced upon us either. We don't want to carry 10 differents sets of gear (you know farmers have inventory issues, right ?) when pressing 1 ability works so well. But, no, they take it away from us for... other people's sake.

Your argument essentially comes down to "there are more casuals and that's what counts". Don't you think that the game caters enough to "the "normal" players. Those who enjoy the sceneries, the dailies, the RPing, the trading, the farming, the thieving, etc.."? It's not like all of these activities require a lot of effort if done casually.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Feanor wrote: »

Your argument essentially comes down to "there are more casuals and that's what counts". Don't you think that the game caters enough to "the "normal" players. Those who enjoy the sceneries, the dailies, the RPing, the trading, the farming, the thieving, etc.."? It's not like all of these activities require a lot of effort if done casually.

What's "efforts" got to do with it ?
I'm talking about playing for fun and getting annoyed by changes made for other people's sake. And those annoyances happening every three months. Every damn quarter, with every damn update.
"Effort" is typically a concept for competitive people. It doesn't and shouldn't apply to us.

SodanTok

You are the minority tho. You arent majority. Casuals are maybe majority in this game but people complaining and being bothered changes are made to appease competitive part of game are minority.

anitajoneb17_ESO

SodanTok wrote: »

You are the minority tho. You arent majority. Casuals are maybe majority in this game but people complaining and being bothered changes are made to appease competitive part of game are minority.

What makes you say that ? Pure assumption on your side.
Besides, I've never said that unhappy casuals were the majority (only that casuals are the majority). And I also said that we're endlessly patient and resilient. Which doesn't prevent me from being fed up and expressing it when our goodwill is being abused over and over.

Feanor

What's "efforts" got to do with it ?
I'm talking about playing for fun and getting annoyed by changes made for other people's sake.

It has everything to do with "effort". You can change your setup in a minor way - it's literally one button press more if you don't know how to dodge roll - and continue whatever you were doing without any further impact.

Actually it's quite a selfish attitude - let everyone else suffer although the adjustment on my end is minor. Your fun seems to be more important than other people having fun as well.

DivineFirstYOLO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

That's exactly what I was fearing when they set up the class rep system : that things would be changed according to the top 1% of players.
ZOS, you really need someone to represent the "normal" players. Those who enjoy the sceneries, the dailies, the RPing, the trading, the farming, the thieving, etc... who get hit again and again by all the changes aimed only for the top.

How is the change to maneuver affecting the scenery, the dailies, the RPing, the trading, the farming, the thieving and so on?
It will still give you major expedition (+30% movement and riding speed). Are you seriously complaining that you now have a harder time escaping guards that used talons on you?

This is exactly why ZOS does not listen to the so called "normal" player base (and thank god that they do not listen). The problems you encounter are trivial when you consider that there are bugged dungeon/trials, that PvP is dominated by lag, that people cannot mount because they are "stuck in combat" forever.

Just use maneuver, make a roll once you get rooted and press the *** shift button to run away from those evil overpowerd guards.

sadlythebest

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Lord_Dexter , which is the option to both give Expedition and purge snares? Preferably with stamina cost.

Curse Eater
OLD
2 – Adds 1206 Maximum Health
3 – Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
4 – Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
5 – Reduces the duration of all negative effects applied to you by 20%.
NEW
2 – Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
3 – Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
4 – Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
5 – When you heal yourself or an ally, remove two negative effects from them. If a negative effect was removed this way, your target restores 150 Magicka. This effect can occur every 2 seconds.

This could be a set to purge the snare debuff.

John_Falstaff

@sadlythebest , mm-m, I don't think it's a good solution. In vCoS HM, there are two labyrinths, so two players will be separated from the group's healer during the labyrinth phase (where Rapids really shine). Maybe if group has two magicka DDs, three team members could put that on to have that set in both labyrinths with guarantee, but it's a very narrow case for magicka groups, and replacing one skill with full 5pc set... it's just weird.

ellahellabella

Trust me, as a pvper that likes to run in groups under 12, This is an incredibly depressing change. We don't have a rapid spam slave, so we're going to cop it big time.

I want this change undone as much as you do


ALSO
Some people are saying it will nerf ball groups now, it won't. Ball groups run a purge slave and a rapid slave. It's just another nerf to smallscale (AGAIN)

Grimm13

SodanTok wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Trully massive nerf to the playstyle that requests you to dodge 5 times by door, drink invisibility potion, press cloak or swim 2m in water to avoid any chase.

That's not the point.
The point is that non-competitive players/playstyles (majority) must, ONCE AGAIN, adjust, adapt, change, just for the sake of the minority of competitive players in PvP or PvE who optimize and abuse mechanics, systems and abilities up to the point where they get broken and need to be nerfed. Forcing changes onto EVERYONE.

Duh. Balance is done around competition.

This is why balancing PVE and PVP separately is needed.

IzzyStardust

SodanTok wrote: »

You are the minority tho. You arent majority. Casuals are maybe majority in this game but people complaining and being bothered changes are made to appease competitive part of game are minority.

What?

IzzyStardust

ellahellabella wrote: »

Trust me, as a pvper that likes to run in groups under 12, This is an incredibly depressing change. We don't have a rapid spam slave, so we're going to cop it big time.

I want this change undone as much as you do


ALSO
Some people are saying it will nerf ball groups now, it won't. Ball groups run a purge slave and a rapid slave. It's just another nerf to smallscale (AGAIN)

Also they don't want small groups, they do not want zergs. They what? Only want people to 1v1 fisticuffs?

I find PVPers so confusing sometimes.

Lord_Eomer

OP post not justifies that rapid should not take nerf its just a bait

FrancisCrawford

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

OP post not justifies that rapid should not take nerf its just a bait

If I'm guessing correctly what you meant by that ungrammatical spew, the one who's baiting is you, because you made up an accusation against me that is obviously incorrect.