Five Attribute System, Making Hybrids Viable, and ending stamina/magicka standoff

Thevampirenight

The major issue, is the three stat system.
You have to put most points into one or the other. Magicka or Stamina, while not leaving much room for building up a characte with a more hybrid style of both magic and stamina that could do good damage and be completely viable. I'm not the expert on builds as I'm not a meta builder or follow the meta much but others have talked about this and I think this is the answer. Attribute points would no longer stop at level fifty but every 15 champion points Gaining one attribute point This is why. 64 might not be enough to handle this new change I am proposing, . I did the math was wrong on 780 being the number of cp points but I based the math on 780, but I'm still going by that value because I would have to change the math to be more then 116 points but with 810 it would be 118 attribute points. Since I based the math on 780 the calculations below would be based on that amount of cp points. I am sorry for mixing that up.



Here is what it looks like currently Spellpower and physical damage are connected to stamina and magicka. My idea is to change it so it separates them from each other. So Magicka would be magicka pool, Recovery stat and healing effectiveness. Stamina would be stamina pool, recovery and improvement of stamina healing. So you would have the five stat attributes instead of three . Spell power effectiveness would be its own stat and so would physical damage so those stats would be separated from the magicka and stamina pools and become their own attributes.
Magicka- Increased Magicka and Magicka Regeneration. Increases healing done by magicka abilties.
Stamina, Increased Stamina Pool and Stamina Regeneration. Increases Healing effectiveness by Stamina abilties.
Health as it is now.
Spell Power- Increases Magicka Based Ability Damage and effectiveness
Physical strength- Increases Stamina Based-ability damage and effectiveness.

According to this https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Stats each point placed into a pool increases dps by 1.5 i'm guessing this would be the same for regen and healing so I am going by that with the math f0r dps/healing/regen.

The change into the five stat system would be like this. As it stands when it comes to how much magicka/stamina that raises your magicka/stamina pool you are only getting 7404 with it all maxed out if you put 64 points in stamina or magicka currently. With this new system it would bring a lot more diversity you can either have more magicka or stamina pool regeneration or invest in spell damage and physical strength. If you invest with more dps you would spend more in spell damage and physical strength and as you level cp points you can increase that dps or invest in resource pools. So basically what I'm saying is no more dps, damage ability being tied into magicka and Stamina attributes as they would be made their own attributes with this new system.

Here is a example of roles that can be done here, with this new system you can have hybrid builds or jack of all trades, with the 5 attribute stats with the 116 max in points.
Pure Healer/ Hybrid Tank Healer
Say your a healer if by chance, and you place 116 in all magicka. With a 1.5 increase in healing per point you would have, 174 percent in way of healing. But at the cost of not having any dps but you could self heal pretty well so you could maybe with this run a healer tank if you really wanted too. Using constant self heals along with taunts to heal your allies and your self it might not be very effective but well it could work.


Hybrid Dps Would look something like this. Say you place 40 in spellpower and 40 in physical. that leaves 36 points to place into magicka or stamina pools if you place say 36 in one pool such as magicka
that would leave you with 3996 in increased magicka. If the stats for improved healing are the same as they are for increased damage. 1.5 per point. You will do fifty four percent with increased healing received as well as healing done. Which is pretty good. So you can do a little bit of a jack of trades thing here. As for dps it goes up 1.5 per attribute point invested. That would give you 60% increased spell power and physical damage in a hybrid build.. Meaning a 60 percent increase in dps. 64 skill points right now put straight int one pool or the other. Is a 96 percent dps increase. Now if you put 50 in both spell power and 50 in physical. You would now have 75 percent increase in dps. As a Hybrid Build stands right now right 32 points placed in both stamina and magicka, You would only get 48 percent increase with dps. That is huge difference, from the 96 with maxed stats. That would then leave sixteen points to be placed into one of the other stats. If you place them all in stamina, you would have 1776 increased stamina and if regen or healing goes by 1.5 you would then have 24 percent in healing or regen. If you deside out 8 and 8 in both magicka and stamina you would have half that in stat and regen/healing effectiveness.

Tanking requires a bunch of things which are tied into health and the abilty to sheild but they also need the abilty to taunt. According to that wiki, health levels up by 156 each level giving you a max of 7800 of increased health. With the current 64 skill points you will have 7808 if you place all 64 points into health. Now say you have a tanking build. You place 69 points in health 47 in stamina for the tanking abilties along with shields. You would have 8418 increased health. 5217 increased stamina to use for your taunting and tanking abilties 70.5 percent increase in stamina healing and regen if that is the same stat as it is for the damage. So tanking would be more effective.

Dps Build For this example I'm going with a Magicka Nightblade . Lets use 80 points in spellpower and 36 points in magicka 89 x 1.5 would be 120 percent in dps damage potential with 80 put into the spellpower stat 50.4 with increased magicka regen plus magicka healing. This is for self healing when needed plus, magicka regen. So this would be pretty good dps build.

Glass Canon Dps Build With this I'm going to go with 116 points put in all stamina. Like before I will use the nightblade as an example. This build would use pure Physical Strength Attribute. The befits of this build is lots of damage within a short amount of time. But at the cost of regen, and stamina pool increase. And you would not be able to heal as effectively. You might need to have a constant healer within groups but stealth could help keep you alive and it might even be good for a gank build I don't know.

Dps/Healer Build For this I'm going to do the a Templar, with 64 spell power attribute points and 52 points in magicka. This build you would have 96 percent. Dps and 78 percent in healing effectiveness. Allowing you to be both a healer and a damage dealer.

Dps/Tank I'm going to use the Dragonknight here. Using 64 phyisical power and 52 health points. This would still be a good build here as well. Though it might not give much in the way of regen stamina, as it is only using Health and Physical power. But would allow the ability to do both. Even if the dps is more limited.

As you can see here. the five stats plus 116 by the way I separated them. Allows far more diversity in builds and even hybrid builds including dps/healer hybrids, tank/healing hybrids, Dps/Tanks, Hybrid dps, glass cannon dps and many other combinations. The reason why we don't have this freedom now is they merged spell power with magicka regen and magicka pool attribute along with. Physical strength with stamina regen and stamina pool. Using the Skyrim System of only having health stamina and magicka and this is what has caused everything they have tried to do with balance to basically fail or cause more problems. There is one other thing they can do without adding five stats, placing stamina damage/Physical strength, and Spellpower, into the health attribute. I think this could also work as well. But not as much as the system I'm proposing. If they only still use the 64 attributes.

As for the poll options, they are optional, feel free to share any ideas and maybe do a healthy discussion/ debate on what could be done to improve things even if we might not agree with each other. I think being respectful is important and also willing to look past each others mistakes: ). So this thread is about many things Balance, adding more options for player builds while also giving players a platform of ideas that can improve performance. Ideas that can be discussed about what could be done that could improve the game. in a way players more choices to where they don;t feel like they are put in a corner where they have to play a certain way to succeed but always have more then one choice. I am sorry if I made a bunch of mistakes that made this thread not make sense at first. But I've been editing it and working on it. Playing Eso shouldn't be about current meta but multiple choice and freedom. The reason why I made the five attributes thread was because the system as it currently stands I believe is causing a problem that is making their attempts to balance everything worse of course there is other things like Cp Points, Gear Sets, Foods. That are also big factors in the balance. I don't think anyone should be stuck in playing a certain race in order to advance and do content. It is sad that races only matter for their passives and not for the rich lore surrounding them.

Sylvermynx

Well.... you spend a lot of words (hoo boy that's an understatement), and don't make much sense to me. So - not voting in your polls, and not paying any more attention to you. I'm happy with the system as is. The game feels like Elder Scrolls to me, and that's absolutely all I care about.

Thevampirenight

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Well.... you spend a lot of words (hoo boy that's an understatement), and don't make much sense to me. So - not voting in your polls, and not paying any more attention to you. I'm happy with the system as is. The game feels like Elder Scrolls to me, and that's absolutely all I care about.

Well if that is how you feel, but something needs to be done about this. I think its high type they do it when they are adding passives that basically would only work well with hybrid builds with the racial passive balance update. I happened to take my time to make this thread and do most of the math for this. Using a calculator. The thing you must know is all Elder scrolls games except skyrim used more then 3 stats.
Health Magicka and stamina might have worked well for Skyrim but merging everything into two stats basically the most important stats of stamina and magicka and not separating them how they were in other games has caused more issues. Separating regen and resource pool, from damage dealing is a must if they are going to do anything to end the pure stamina vs magicka thing that has been going on. Which is the main reason why hybrids cannot be viable. But they can be in a 5 attribute system with 116 attribute points being made available into the CP system as additional leveling. Which would make more room of course they would need to balance out the cp system
which would make the game the most balanced then it has ever been even if abilties and everyone would be more powerfuil as a result they could adjust the difficulty to compensate by doing it this way gives freedom of choice this game has been lacking because of the attributes system alone.

Shadow-Fighter

Other

It was fundamentally wrong to scale up (damage) with base attributes.

It would get things much worse to extend the base attributes while gaining more power from it

Thevampirenight

Shadow-Fighter wrote: »

It was fundamentally wrong to scale up (damage) with base attributes.

It would get things much worse to extend the base attributes while gaining more power from it

Which is why they would have to adjust things. Like creature difficulty to balance it all out. Having us being more powerful while creatures being more difficult. in Dungeons and trials and vet dungeons. Though players might not like it but its better to be powerful and balanced then weaker and not balanced as it is at this point. Doing it the way I suggested would probs be better because if you removed damage bonus, crit change and all that from the stats. A lot of players would be pissed off probably most of the player base if not all. So changing it by separating the stats and getting more power at the cost of resource regeneration and resource pool size would be a much better idea. Then just removing base damage increase from attributes entirely.

Shadow-Fighter

Other

The problem is we have more resources to gain power (e.g. damage).
Base attributes, CP, gear, potion, spell (class abilty), race

Instead of lessen those resources they nerf across the board. I would prefer to gain pure power (sustain) from 2 or 3 resources.

Less resource but pure power

Thevampirenight

Shadow-Fighter wrote: »

The problem is we have more resources to gain power (e.g. damage).
Base attributes, CP, gear, potion, spell (class abilty), race

Instead of lessen those resources they nerf across the board. I would prefer to gain pure power (sustain) from 2 or 3 resources.

Less resource but pure power

Well there is a lot of things they would have to do, but I think starting at champion points/attributes. Making Attributes as I said, Health, Magicka, Stamina, Spell Power, Physical strength. Nerfing all champion points by 50 percent. Then working on Nerfing all the food and drink the game by. Nerfing all item set gear and everything by fifty or forty percent without making any other changes to them so they are still viable that would mean doing it to all the item set gear monster sets whatever within in the game no matter what type of it so that way players might be able to handle it if everything got hit. While having 116 attribute points to invest in could maybe do the trick. Players would be pissed all their stuff got nerfed but I'm sure having more attribute power would make up for it in a way. As they work their current builds, with the newly balanced champion system food system while having 116 attributes to work to work on their builds. With the new five attribute system. Not sure how it would turn out. But it could work even if players are weaker but have more powerful at the same time. While having champions points not be as powerful. I think hiring a outside balancing team that has very good success in balancing games could help also with ingame balancing.

Saucy_Jack

The problem isn't that there isn't choice; if someone wants to be a hybrid, they can make a hybrid. The problem is that 0.00002 seconds after the changes are implemented ingame, the theorycrafters will figure out which stat spread is mathematically the best for DPS, at which point everyone and their mom will jump on that bandwagon. Currently there's a couple of "best builds" for mag, and "best builds" for stam; by changing the amount of attributes to 5 or 8, or whatever, it'll just change to the "best builds" for whatever things get added in.

Thevampirenight

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

The problem isn't that there isn't choice; if someone wants to be a hybrid, they can make a hybrid. The problem is that 0.00002 seconds after the changes are implemented ingame, the theorycrafters will figure out which stat spread is mathematically the best for DPS, at which point everyone and their mom will jump on that bandwagon. Currently there's a couple of "best builds" for mag, and "best builds" for stam; by changing the amount of attributes to 5 or 8, or whatever, it'll just change to the "best builds" for whatever things get added in.

True I'm sure they would do this, but this way there would be more then one way to do it. Adding a little bit more randomness instead of copy and paste builds. Some might even make hybrid builds if they are viable enough to make one with good dps. Not everything is about the best dps ever. But being able to do the content. Still you are most likely right. At the same time, with hundreds of item sets, different cp combinations and having five resource pools not everyone would look to be copy cat builds as they might be doing now or as many. Depending on class build and other factors. So we would still see more diversity even though a lot might still follow the theory crafters guides of doing it.

D0PAMINE

@Thevampirenight Based on how the system is now, adding to it will likely over complicate it to the point where a player using a hybrid probably won't even have it optimized. The easiest viable way is through sets, racials and class choice. You can run a hybrid and do everything except push scores (afaik) in PvE. Also keep in mind how complicated or easy the rotation would be. Pure Magicka and Pure Stamina builds are not broken, so changing how they are can be a hit or miss. It would be a massive project and be too time consuming. Nothing Personal.

richo262

Other

If they want hybrid builds, they should just scrap attributes.

Tie all stats to enchants on gear, that way swapping out your gear makes you Stam or Mag or HP or a mix of the three. Rather than praying at a shrine.

BrianLovesLisa

Other

"I did the math if the current limit is 780 in cp which I think it is."

I didn't read after this, because it is 810. So I figured if you don't know the current CP your post is invalid.

Thevampirenight

BrianLovesLisa wrote: »

"I did the math if the current limit is 780 in cp which I think it is."

I didn't read after this, because it is 810. So I figured if you don't know the current CP your post is invalid.

I thought I read somewhere that it was 780, I was wrong then, no matter. I also recently only came back to the game. I thought was 780 was an honest mistake. I should have checked that.

LeagueTroll

No They don't need to do this.

TLDR. Srsly you expect zos do this much?

Thevampirenight

LeagueTroll wrote: »

TLDR. Srsly you expect zos do this much?

Not really its just an idea, in case they ever want to change it. Its just one of many and the reason why I added the other option is so other can post their ideas as well.

LeagueTroll

No They don't need to do this.

Thevampirenight wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

TLDR. Srsly you expect zos do this much?

Not really its just an idea, in case they ever want to change it. Its just one of many and the reason why I added the other option is so other can post their ideas as well.

Hybrid will hardly make games more diverse. Potatoes will just spam snipe with crystal frag 1 after another, and still do a 4 digit dps. There will just be some new meta that’s like 7 dots 8 sec rotation with light attack weave in between. Tanks are already hybrid and healer need resto staff regardless.

Thevampirenight

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

TLDR. Srsly you expect zos do this much?

Not really its just an idea, in case they ever want to change it. Its just one of many and the reason why I added the other option is so other can post their ideas as well.

Hybrid will hardly make games more diverse. Potatoes will just spam snipe with crystal frag 1 after another, and still do a 4 digit dps. There will just be some new meta that’s like 7 dots 8 sec rotation with light attack weave in between. Tanks are already hybrid and healer need resto staff regardless.

Well one thing they have not really done cooldowns on abilties other then adding a one second global cooldown on abilites. Snipe ,Frags, Templar jabs and other abilties that are just constant spam effects there really isn't much if any cooldown on them like there should be. The reason why there are not cooldowns on such abilties is more for player convenience they even allow animation canceling treating it like a feature. This allows basically non stop players ability skill use till magic/ stamina runs out . But one of the many problems that is causing lag and server issues is constant spam spam spam ability ability ability. You got a lot of zergs doing this in many areas and I think this might be causing a lot of performance issues. Along with calculations caused by constant spam ability adding a little timer or cooldown not to big but maybe three or four seconds to the worst offender abilities could help with the server lag issue. I could be wrong and it would do nothing. *Shrugs*

This might also be the reason why they added in the global one second cooldown. But I think if they could add add a few second cooldown might help decrease lag. I'm sure many would be opposed to this but why not. If you had to choose between the lag and ability cooldowns I think cooldowns might win out. I have the feeling they might be moving more to flat numbers then percentage value's at least with racial passives and possibly others come the next dlc to increase performance that might be hindered by so abilities/passives using percentage value which might cause the most strain. So if they do more to reduce percentage values then they might not need to have to do a cooldown on abilties.