Argonian nerf

killmove

Argonian passive isn't that big, it's mainly 102 resources back per sec (4620/45) and now its 80 resources per sec (3600/45)
So Why nerf Argonian ?

Banana

There still pretty strong. But just as ugly

Silver_Strider

I can live with the nerf to our sustain; I fully expected that much to occur. What I don't understand is why TF they nerfed us to the ground in literally every single facet of this game without SOMETHING to compensate for the nerfs.

Our healing and tanking potency have been nerfed and our damage took a hit as well with the sustain nerf but will they throw us a bone? Nope.

Drdeath20

Every race is getting nerfed.

Juhasow

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Every race is getting nerfed.

High elfs laugh at You.

susmitds

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Every race is getting nerfed.

Redguard laughs at you.

Faulgor

1000 Magicka > 3% Magicka

And they still have the second most health with Nords after Imperials.

Silver_Strider

Faulgor wrote: »

1000 Magicka > 3% Magicka

And they still have the second most health with Nords after Imperials.

That's only true if you have less than 33.5k Magic and I'm gonna tell you right now, it's stupid easy to get that much magic on almost any class without even trying to build for it.

Anyron

For me, 3% max magicka = 1028 magicka so if you say that was buff, you are wrong
I am argonian sorcerer dps, with 40452 max magicka
Its not counted, i found that amount by reseting my racial resourceful so its correct

Nerfs what argonian got are ok, but what is wrong is how it is compared to other races. As magicka dps argonian is weakest of all magicka races by far.

For example altmer. Superior racials can be multiplied both by major buffs and +% on skills, which gives them even more power compared to argonians or even bretons

Tommy_The_Gun

Main problem (and I can really grasp why that people seems to overlook this, yes even top tier players and class reps - people that know this game better than ZOS does seems to overlook this) is that argonian potion passive is not direct reason why they can have very good sustain.

You see, argonians only became very popular and often used in PvP after Summerset update... and what we got with Summerset ? You guessed it - jewellery crafting.

In short, 3 pcs of Infused jewellery with potion speed enchants allow to reduce potion cooldown by 24 seconds. This means that you can drink potion every 21 seconds, instead of 45 seconds. This effectively DOUBLES the argonians potion passive.

This absolutely NEEDS to be addressed on the PTS.

But then again, seeing all the hate & salt on forums towards Argonians - simply makes me sad.

I guess this is how forums look like nowadays when you post literally ANYTHING constructive about argonians... the hate... the hate is just insane...

Faulgor

If 1000 Magicka are a nerf for Argonians, then all stat changes are nerfs, because that's the best conversion of all of them.

Altmer: 10% Magicka --> 2000 Magicka
Dunmer: 9% Magicka --> 1250 Magicka
Dunmer: 6% Stamina --> 1250 Stamina
Orc: 6% Stamina --> 500 Stamina
etc.

Only Khajiit got a better deal because they didn't have any stat boosts at all before.

xaraan

I expected a nerf, not b/c it was too strong, but b/c people thought it was and complained enough.

But not a nerf to every passive- losing more than half health bonus, losing healing in bonus, poison resist and losing 20some percent of potion passive.

IMO, even though I expected a nerf to the potion passive I thought they would deserve a bonus to damage in some form. Nothing that makes them on part with top DD races, but something. And with across the board nerfs and nothing offered in return elsewhere I have no faith that balancing will improve at zos with various people involved differently now, from class reps and staff.

Skander

Becouse argonian by passives had at least 2 times the bonuses of other races

xaraan

Skander wrote: »

Because argonian by passives had at least 2 times the bonuses of other races

No they didn't.

This lie was started by a class rep that already got outed for using bad math and inaccurate charts. Let's not spread it.

The potion passive didn't offer much more regen when divided out than what people assume looking at the whole number. And that isn't even counting that you only get that if you still need it. If you drink a tri-pot b/c you needed one resource and don't need but 7 K back in the others, then you get nothing from the passive on those lines. Not even counting the fact it's the only passive that requires a consumable to get use out of. But we did expect it to get nerfed.

But the statement they were twice as strong, or twice the bonuses is just flat wrong.

Every single support bonus they had was nerfed. They should have been offered something to help them in a DD role in exchange.

Priyasekarssk

killmove wrote: »

Argonian passive isn't that big, it's mainly 102 resources back per sec (4620/45) and now its 80 resources per sec (3600/45)
So Why nerf Argonian ?

It should have been long before. It took several years for ZOs to figure it out argonian is overpowered.

Arkangeloski

Nerf to the ground? Lol go look at other classes... The argonian survived the onslaught with a few scratches others can't say the same. Never made an argonian because they are hideous and tbh probably smell like stagment water too, but I might swallow the pill and make one after this patch.

Nord_Raseri

they should not away the healing recieved bonus part of the last passive.

Twohothardware

It's not about how much the return is per second, it's the fact Argonian gets all of the resources instantly when needed most so u can time your resource surge when your lowest. You also get the full return while blocking and even if you have very low Recovery stats. Argonian Resourceful passive is also majorly buffed by the new Infused Jewelry with Potion Cooldown Glyphs. On top of that Argonian got 10% bonus to healing. Only a 5% bonus to healing is more than other Races gain from 10% bonus Stamina or Magicka.

Anyron

Twohothardware wrote: »

It's not about how much the return is per second, it's the fact Argonian gets all of the resources instantly when needed most so u can time your resource surge when your lowest. You also get the full return while blocking and even if you have very low Recovery stats. Argonian Resourceful passive is also majorly buffed by the new Infused Jewelry with Potion Cooldown Glyphs. On top of that Argonian got 10% bonus to healing. Only a 5% bonus to healing is more than other Races gain from 10% bonus Stamina or Magicka.

I disagree. 2k magicka and 250 spell damage (altmer) increases healing more than 1k magicka and 4% healing done.

For pve if you need potions for healing you have bad healer and stamina.. Lets say my stam is always full

If you build tank for this passive, resourceful, thats only one role. You have there also healer +dd and for this two its useless

Silver_Strider

Twohothardware wrote: »

It's not about how much the return is per second, it's the fact Argonian gets all of the resources instantly when needed most so u can time your resource surge when your lowest. You also get the full return while blocking and even if you have very low Recovery stats. Argonian Resourceful passive is also majorly buffed by the new Infused Jewelry with Potion Cooldown Glyphs. On top of that Argonian got 10% bonus to healing. Only a 5% bonus to healing is more than other Races gain from 10% bonus Stamina or Magicka.

The burst resources only mattered in PvP and were near useless in most PvE content outside of solo play. The only people that bothered with Infused Pot enchantments were permablockers because the general investment in using potions that often on top giving up resources/damage as a result of jewelry trait/enchantment slots being gone, was not needed in any circumstance other than that specific niche. People were playing successfully long before Infused came into the picture and while it offers a great amount of sustain, it didn't really change anything for Argonians since it came at the lost of damage/resources because in essence, all you were doing was trading the damage boost from jewelry for sustain, and dropping a sustain set to make up the damage lost from Jewelry. That's not a buff, that's a gold sink as you stupidly waste all your gold buying mats to make these expensive potions only to get similar results to people that were playing without Infused Pot enchants.

The 10% bonus to healing is just that, a bonus to HEALING ONLY. The 10% Max resources are bonuses to healing, damage and your sustainability. I also find fault with the 5% healing done passive being better than the 10% Max Resource because if that was true the 3% Max Magic Argonian had would have pushed them to be the undisputed Healer champions instead of having a 3 way tie with Breton and Altmer. If anything, it was a 5% Healing Done vs 7% Max Magic difference that just barely tied up with the other magic races, leaving only sustain and survivability being the deciding factors, of which Argonian had a leg up over Altmer and Breton but were countered by the fact both those races out DPS'd Argonian. With these new changes, the differences are clearly being stacked against Argonian on all fronts to a point that the race is going right back to being bottom tier in just about everything again.

Wuuffyy

Kids are not sacrificing 600 spell and wep to get 3 20 seconds off their pot guy. That isn't the problem and it's a legit combo. Some people need a lot of each resource to make it through (WW) tough fights. SO PLEASE BE QUIET. B/c you haven't deduced anything except your own opinion.

amir412

Argonian got a well deserved nerf.
Was too tanky, ez to sustain, and didnt had to built for regen/sustain at all.

Tommy_The_Gun

amir412 wrote: »

Argonian got a well deserved nerf.
Was too tanky, ez to sustain, and didnt had to built for regen/sustain at all.

You are overlooking very important thing. Curently (on live server) argonians have literly NOTHING that can boost their DPS potenial. Instead they have extra tanky-ness & resources sustain. If you want to play as DPS as argonian you are simply forced to run 2 5pcs dmg sets and even then your dmg will be lower than lets say on altmer or dunmer.
The thing is, you can't have your cake and eat it. Sacrifices has to be made somewhere. Argonians sacrifice their dmg potenial for sustain & tankiness.

Zos stated that they want every race to be able to play every role more or less with the same effectiveness. However this does not applay to argonians for some reason as all they got was a heavy sustain nerf and a nerf for healing recived. They were nerfed in the roles they were good at without any buff for the roles they were bad at (dps).

Azurya

they swim much to fast, reduce this pls

Juhasow

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Main problem (and I can really grasp why that people seems to overlook this, yes even top tier players and class reps - people that know this game better than ZOS does seems to overlook this) is that argonian potion passive is not direct reason why they can have very good sustain.

You see, argonians only became very popular and often used in PvP after Summerset update... and what we got with Summerset ? You guessed it - jewellery crafting.

In short, 3 pcs of Infused jewellery with potion speed enchants allow to reduce potion cooldown by 24 seconds. This means that you can drink potion every 21 seconds, instead of 45 seconds. This effectively DOUBLES the argonians potion passive.

This absolutely NEEDS to be addressed on the PTS.

But then again, seeing all the hate & salt on forums towards Argonians - simply makes me sad.

I guess this is how forums look like nowadays when you post literally ANYTHING constructive about argonians... the hate... the hate is just insane...

Nobody overlooked that it was perfectly known by everyone class reps and top tier players. It is just acceptable thing since yes You are doubling the argonian passive effectiveness but You're loosing traits and other enchantments You would be able to put into jewelery. During summerset PTS people started to theorycraft builds around use of that passive and infused jewelery so no it was not overlooked and some of the tanks already started to use it on PTS. The only thing why this was not talked about so widely during PTS is fact that at the beggining of PTS infused trait was bugged.

amir412

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Argonian got a well deserved nerf.
Was too tanky, ez to sustain, and didnt had to built for regen/sustain at all.

You are overlooking very important thing. Curently (on live server) argonians have literly NOTHING that can boost their DPS potenial. Instead they have extra tanky-ness & resources sustain. If you want to play as DPS as argonian you are simply forced to run 2 5pcs dmg sets and even then your dmg will be lower than lets say on altmer or dunmer.
The thing is, you can't have your cake and eat it. Sacrifices has to be made somewhere. Argonians sacrifice their dmg potenial for sustain & tankiness.

Zos stated that they want every race to be able to play every role more or less with the same effectiveness. However this does not applay to argonians for some reason as all they got was a heavy sustain nerf and a nerf for healing recived. They were nerfed in the roles they were good at without any buff for the roles they were bad at (dps).

If u want to play Argonian as DPS, thats ur own problem for playing mediocre build.
ZOS statements and their actions are bias, when they finally start to do well thoughts balances, i can actually take their statements seriously.
I really dont understand why would u play, knowngly, a race that will lower ur DPS just cuz u wanna roleplay or something like that.
Choosing a race by lore/look and complain about lower dps and not able to compete is your problem, and urs alone.

Didgerion

killmove wrote: »

Argonian passive isn't that big, it's mainly 102 resources back per sec (4620/45) and now its 80 resources per sec (3600/45)
So Why nerf Argonian ?

80 resources per second is 160 regeneration.
So you get 160 magica regeneration, 160 stamina regeneration and 160 health regeneration in just one passive. That's like 3 jewelry enchants. Not much you say?

Sharee

Didgerion wrote: »

killmove wrote: »

Argonian passive isn't that big, it's mainly 102 resources back per sec (4620/45) and now its 80 resources per sec (3600/45)
So Why nerf Argonian ?

80 resources per second is 160 regeneration.
So you get 160 magica regeneration, 160 stamina regeneration and 160 health regeneration in just one passive. That's like 3 jewelry enchants. Not much you say?

Now compare it to redguard passives. And you will realize redguards actually have a higher stamina regeneration than argonians.(792 every 5 seconds is 158 regen, AND they get a 9% general stam regen bonus on top of that)
Argonians only come on top regen-wise if you add all 3 of their regens together(and then only if you actually NEEDED that magicka when you used a potion because you were low on stamina). But if you have stamina DPS argonian, your stamina regen is much more important than your health regen.

Result: a stamina redguard not only has a better stamina regen than an argonian, he also does more damage thanks to having stat bonuses in an area that actually boosts damage(10% max stam bonus).

Then only thing that argonians(currently, on live) are better at is off-stat regen(i.e. magicka regen on a stamina toon) and incoming healing(which the redguard matches with his increased damage)

Kitty_Quietly

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Argonian got a well deserved nerf.
Was too tanky, ez to sustain, and didnt had to built for regen/sustain at all.

You are overlooking very important thing. Curently (on live server) argonians have literly NOTHING that can boost their DPS potenial. Instead they have extra tanky-ness & resources sustain. If you want to play as DPS as argonian you are simply forced to run 2 5pcs dmg sets and even then your dmg will be lower than lets say on altmer or dunmer.
The thing is, you can't have your cake and eat it. Sacrifices has to be made somewhere. Argonians sacrifice their dmg potenial for sustain & tankiness.

Zos stated that they want every race to be able to play every role more or less with the same effectiveness. However this does not applay to argonians for some reason as all they got was a heavy sustain nerf and a nerf for healing recived. They were nerfed in the roles they were good at without any buff for the roles they were bad at (dps).

Yeah, true. Don’t know what the final numbers will mean when people test it, but it does seem like something is missing here.

Personally, I just wish that resourceful passive was changed from a potion booster to a cost reduction somewhere. Maybe like a 8% reduction in class and monster ability cost? Maybe they could get like a 129 weapon and spell damage to those class and monster abilities too. Yeah, probably still over powered. I don’t know.

Hopefully any huge problems with their balance in other roles is spotted on PTS. I know when considering which chararchter to change with the update, an Argonian seemed most likely for me. If they change something else then that decision gets harder. All races are fun, and since not aiming for top of anything, I just figure what might let me do more or live more when playing as absentmindedly as I often do.

Juhasow

Sharee wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

killmove wrote: »

Argonian passive isn't that big, it's mainly 102 resources back per sec (4620/45) and now its 80 resources per sec (3600/45)
So Why nerf Argonian ?

80 resources per second is 160 regeneration.
So you get 160 magica regeneration, 160 stamina regeneration and 160 health regeneration in just one passive. That's like 3 jewelry enchants. Not much you say?

Now compare it to redguard passives. And you will realize redguards actually have a higher stamina regeneration than argonians.(792 every 5 seconds is 158 regen, AND they get a 9% general stam regen bonus on top of that)
Argonians only come on top regen-wise if you add all 3 of their regens together(and then only if you actually NEEDED that magicka when you used a potion because you were low on stamina). But if you have stamina DPS argonian, your stamina regen is much more important than your health regen.

Result: a stamina redguard not only has a better stamina regen than an argonian, he also does more damage thanks to having stat bonuses in an area that actually boosts damage(10% max stam bonus).

Then only thing that argonians(currently, on live) are better at is off-stat regen(i.e. magicka regen on a stamina toon) and incoming healing(which the redguard matches with his increased damage)

Comparing requirement of using potion every 45 seconds to using meele direct dmg every 5 seconds without giving any context is not the smartest idea. Thing is in real fight redguard passive resource gain is much harder to achieve at 100% then argonian one especially in PvP where sometimes You'll be simply in defense and not doing any meele direct dmg when You can use potion in both defense and offense. Even in PvE when You look at Your combat metrics from skeleton fight where this redguard passive should be the most effective since You can deal dmg constantly on target that is not even moving You see it's not actual 79/sec but closer to 50/60 per sec because You need to bar swap on bow and spend 4-5 seconds there and You dont have meele direct dmg there and 9% stamina regen is barely noticable since stamina characters in PvE do not have high base stam regen or if You're tank You're blocking so stam regen is not working at all so no redguard do not have better stamina sustain then argonian. Also since You bring up current state of redguard passive would be nice to compare it to current state of argonian passive which is ~100/sec and You have total control over it since You can pop potion on cooldown so here You have it argonian stamina restore is almost 2x better currently then redguard one and he also have magicka and health restore.

Sharee

Juhasow wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

killmove wrote: »

Argonian passive isn't that big, it's mainly 102 resources back per sec (4620/45) and now its 80 resources per sec (3600/45)
So Why nerf Argonian ?

80 resources per second is 160 regeneration.
So you get 160 magica regeneration, 160 stamina regeneration and 160 health regeneration in just one passive. That's like 3 jewelry enchants. Not much you say?

Now compare it to redguard passives. And you will realize redguards actually have a higher stamina regeneration than argonians.(792 every 5 seconds is 158 regen, AND they get a 9% general stam regen bonus on top of that)
Argonians only come on top regen-wise if you add all 3 of their regens together(and then only if you actually NEEDED that magicka when you used a potion because you were low on stamina). But if you have stamina DPS argonian, your stamina regen is much more important than your health regen.

Result: a stamina redguard not only has a better stamina regen than an argonian, he also does more damage thanks to having stat bonuses in an area that actually boosts damage(10% max stam bonus).

Then only thing that argonians(currently, on live) are better at is off-stat regen(i.e. magicka regen on a stamina toon) and incoming healing(which the redguard matches with his increased damage)

Comparing requirement of using potion every 45 seconds to using meele direct dmg every 5 seconds without giving any context is not the smartest idea. Thing is in real fight redguard passive resource gain is much harder to achieve at 100% then argonian one especially in PvP where sometimes You'll be simply in defense and not doing any meele direct dmg when You can use potion in both defense and offense.

Right, however on the other hand, it is also not easy to achieve 100% effectiveness of the argonian passive, because you will often use a potion in a situation where you do not actually need any stat replenishment (you use a potion to refill stamina while your HP and magicka are already full, or you use a detection potion when all your resources are full), which cuts the argonian passive down to 1/3 or even zero effectiveness respectively.