The only logical, fair answer to racial passives.

Actually_Goku

The Elder Scrolls is a game based on choices, and player freedom. Freedom to go where you please, do as you please and take the game on at a pace as you please, and to do it with a character built, as you please.

Since ESO has launched, there has never really been “balance” among the races. Up until the proposed update 21 changes, though, the races at least had a different feel, and you would not sandbag yourself for picking your favourite race in a build that didn’t match - ie, an Orc’s sprint speed is useful even if you want to be a mage, and 12% health is always handy for Imperials.

The proposed update 21 changes to racial balancing, with all due respect to the dev team, are terrible from a perspective of freedom of choice. You have taken a system already littered with min-max race elitism, and made it even worse. If you are a non-healing magicka player, I guarantee you won’t feel special or unique running around Tamriel with the rest of the population being 70% Altmer, as well. The other 30% will be Redguards or Orcs.

The changes proposed are half-way to where we need to be for complete parity. For all players to play as the race they want; and to put the racial balancing discussion to bed forever.

Below, I have detailed a system I, and many of my experience guildmates have agreed is the most logical and fair (and frankly, interesting) way of making race matter again.

The added “flavor” passives for each race remain, as they are. IE, Altmer still gain 15% Destro skill staff EXP, due to their inherent affinity lore-wise to being mages. Nords still get 2H EXP due to their affinity for getting drunk and swinging their Battleaxes at everything, etc.

The point of this thread, is to propose a tiered choice system for players to build their character as they see fit, while also implementing the proposed perks and flat changes to come in Wrathstone.

In detail, see below.

As mentioned, races keep their “flavor” perks.

Racial perk 1 - you have a choice between one of the following:

1 - Restore 575 Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher, when activating a class ability.
2 - Increase your Magicka by 1000, and restore 3600 Health, Magicka and Stamina when you drink a potion.
3 - increase Stamina recovery by 258.
4 - increase max Magicka by 2000.
5 - increase max Magicka and Stamina by 1250.
6 - increase your Health recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 75 (this needs a rework, surely)
7 - increase Stamina by 1500, and gain 5 ultimate every time you take damage, occurring every 10 seconds.
8 - Increase max Health and max Stamina by 500.
9 - reduce the cost of weapon abilities by 8%.
10 - increase max Health by 2000.

And so on, 10 choices for tiers 2 & 3. Ideally, ZOS would place certain similar choices into the same tier, ie flat resource or recovery buffs, such as 2000 of any resource, 1250 of two, or the same for recovery, in the same tier.

We believe that this is the fairest, most equitable race balancing system, and it would put to bed, the race issue in ESO once and for all, as everyone would have the same opportunity. The happy coincidence here, is that everyone gets to play their favourite race.

The current system is not tenable, nor is the proposed system.

Make it happen, ZOS.

Red_Feather

I would like Racial Passive Morphs. More things to spend skill points on means more reason to play content for more skill points.

Aedrion

I have a better idea

I've said this all over the forums.

Morphs.

Seraphayel

No, keep the proposed changes

I'm absolutely fine with the changes and will happily play my Khajiit Nightblade Magicka (Healer), even when he's half a percent worse than the generic Altmer equivalent. Who cares?

I don't pick a race because the bonuses make me better, I pick a race because I like their story, how they look or how they overall fit my character. I feel sorry for everybody who picks races because of min-maxing - you'll never be satisfied with your choice.

rafaelcsmaia

Yes, I like it

Although i like it, i doubt zos will change what they came up with ao drastically.

Lets just hope the minor adjustments they do end up making all races viable to what they usednto be or even more.

Sylvermynx

No, keep the proposed changes

I don't have any issue with what's proposed. I play a race/class combo on each girl because it's what she wanted to do when I created her. I have a lot of girls (19....) and every one of them is happy with who she is, so I'm happy too - and I plan to keep it that way!

Actually_Goku

Aedrion wrote: »

I've said this all over the forums.

Morphs.

I was once in favor of that, and still am, however we have been screaming for this for years, and we are not getting it. I consider my proposal to be a happy medium between morphs and what ZOS wants to implement.

CipherNine

Yes, I like it

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm absolutely fine with the changes and will happily play my Khajiit Nightblade Magicka (Healer), even when he's half a percent worse than the generic Altmer equivalent. Who cares?

I don't pick a race because the bonuses make me better, I pick a race because I like their story, how they look or how they overall fit my character. I feel sorry for everybody who picks races because of min-maxing - you'll never be satisfied with your choice.

You don't make any sense. If the way you described is how you enjoy the game. Then in the living hell do you want such restrictive racial passives? It doesn't make any sense. The current racial passives completely contradicts how you say you enjoy the game

Arrodisia

I don't disagree with the changes, just how they're throwing certain aspects of it onto the player base. However, these 2 ideas aren't bad, but maybe both combined would be more interesting . We choose our own passives and we can morph them as we go along. It sounds like a lot of work though. I'm not sure ZOS would want to go that route unless they push the changes back for a few more months.

Bouldercleave

No, keep the proposed changes

I'm fine with what is proposed, although I do like the idea of morphs as posted above.

VERY intriguing.

Seraphayel

No, keep the proposed changes

CipherNine wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm absolutely fine with the changes and will happily play my Khajiit Nightblade Magicka (Healer), even when he's half a percent worse than the generic Altmer equivalent. Who cares?

I don't pick a race because the bonuses make me better, I pick a race because I like their story, how they look or how they overall fit my character. I feel sorry for everybody who picks races because of min-maxing - you'll never be satisfied with your choice.

You don't make any sense. If the way you described is how you enjoy the game. Then in the living hell do you want such restrictive racial passives? It doesn't make any sense. The current racial passives completely contradicts how you say you enjoy the game

Not at all. It's easy, don't pick a race because of their bonuses, pick a race because it fits your character (visuals, lore). If you chose your race based on passives that are about to change it's your fault when they change. Something like a race's lore or visuals doesn't change, that's why someone who prefers - in this case - the roleplaying aspect will never be disappointed by his/her racial choice.

I find it rather silly that 9/10 play Altmer because it might be the best for Magicka characters and not because they really want to play Altmer because they like that race.

The problem in this entire fiasco are min-maxers that pic a race based on numbers. Who benefits by tailored races with tailored racials? In the end all would be the same, like they are now. Neither of the changes is cracking up the meta but ZOS approach at least has some interesting lore behind them (I am not saying every change made to racials is good).

IneedaDollar

I have a better idea

Just remove theres already enough customization options in the game. Replace lost stats with additional Attribute Points or dont compensate lost stats at all since DPS is already too high.

FilteredRiddle

I have a better idea

I think your suggestion goes too far in the direction of 'freedom'. Racial identities is an important factor in TES lore, and to completely rid the game of them would be gutting part of the game's soul. I have suggested something similar a few times, which I feel melds both the importance of racial distinction and the idea of fitting multiple roles.

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

The only Lore friendly change would be to implement something akin to Star Trek Online's, "Race-specific Personal traits" where, "Race-specific Personal traits are optionally selectable based on the player's race." In ESO terms it would look something like each race getting to select 5-6 Passive Abilities from a pool which is specifically tailored to their race.

For example:

Breton pool

MUST CHOOSE 1:
Increased experience gain in skill:
- Restoration Staff
- Destruction Staff
- Light Armor

DISTRIBUTE 30% BONUS BETWEEN:
- Max Magicka
- Magicka Recovery

MUST CHOOSE 3:
- Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your gold gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10% (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Upon using a potion, gain 12% of your maximum, health, magicka and stamina. (Available to all races)
- Increases spell resistance by X (Breton only)
- Increases damage with Cold, Fire or Shock effects by 4% (Altmer, Breton, Dunmer)
- Reduces the magicka cost of spells by 3% (Altmer, Breton, Dunmer)
- Increases healing done and received by 5% (Altmer, Argonian, Breton)

Redguard pool

MUST CHOOSE 1:
Increased experience gain in skill:
- One Hand and Shield
- Two Handed
- Dual Wield

DISTRIBUTE 30% BONUS BETWEEN:
- Max Stamina
- Stamina Recovery

MUST CHOOSE 3:
- Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your gold gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10% (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Upon using a potion, gain 12% of your maximum, health, magicka and stamina. (Available to all races)
- Restores X stamina when damaging an enemy with a melee attack, once every 3 seconds (Redguard only)
- Increases weapon critical chance by 2/5/8% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)
- Increases damage done on melee weapon attacks by 4% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)
- Reduces the stamina cost of skills by 3% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)

Etc.

Effectively:
- Sneak Thief related skills: Khajiit + Bosmer
- Health or Resistance related skills: Argonian + Dunmer + Imperial + Nord + Orc + Redguard
- Stamina or Stamina Damage related skills: Bosmer + Imperial + Khajiit + Nord + Orc + Redguard
- Magicka or Magicka Damage related skills: Altmer + Breton + Dunmer
- Restoration related skills: Altmer + Argonian + Breton

All races would also have a pool of generic skills to choose from (e.g. the 1% AP gain), in addition to a single racial specific skill which confers a small bonus (e.g. Bow attacks returning Stamina & Bosmer, Melee attacks returning Stamina & Redguard, Spell Resistance & Breton, Fire Resistance & Dunmer, Poison/Disease Resistance & Argonian). The skills in their 'pool' would fit into 2 of the above 5 categories, per race, allowing at least two viable 'meta' roles, with the generic options allowing people to spread out beyond the meta if they so choose while still respecting lore.

CipherNine

Yes, I like it

Seraphayel wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm absolutely fine with the changes and will happily play my Khajiit Nightblade Magicka (Healer), even when he's half a percent worse than the generic Altmer equivalent. Who cares?

I don't pick a race because the bonuses make me better, I pick a race because I like their story, how they look or how they overall fit my character. I feel sorry for everybody who picks races because of min-maxing - you'll never be satisfied with your choice.

You don't make any sense. If the way you described is how you enjoy the game. Then in the living hell do you want such restrictive racial passives? It doesn't make any sense. The current racial passives completely contradicts how you say you enjoy the game

Not at all. It's easy, don't pick a race because of their bonuses, pick a race because it fits your character (visuals, lore). If you chose your race based on passives that are about to change it's your fault when they change. Something like a race's lore or visuals doesn't change, that's why someone who prefers - in this case - the roleplaying aspect will never be disappointed by his/her racial choice.

I find it rather silly that 9/10 play Altmer because it might be the best for Magicka characters and not because they really want to play Altmer because they like that race.

The problem in this entire fiasco are min-maxers that pic a race based on numbers. Who benefits by tailored races with tailored racials? In the end all would be the same, like they are now. Neither of the changes is cracking up the meta but ZOS approach at least has some interesting lore behind them (I am not saying every change made to racials is good).

Yeah I totally get that and I agree with you. Which is why I don't see why the racial passives should be the way they are. They should not have as big of an impact on gameplay as they do. The passives completely contradict how a ES game should be. No other ES game had racial passives that made certain races drastically more viable than others.

CipherNine

Yes, I like it

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

I think your suggestion goes too far in the direction of 'freedom'. Racial identities is an important factor in TES lore, and to completely rid the game of them would be gutting part of the game's soul. I have suggested something similar a few times, which I feel melds both the importance of racial distinction and the idea of fitting multiple roles.

Did you even actually play the other ES games? They were not how you describe. All the other games had 100% freedom to play any race however the hell you wanted. The racials in all the other games were so negligible they didn't matter at all. They were just minimal bonus that made each race unique. Nothing that had a big impact on gameplay. Which is how it should be and how you say is how the TES world has always been.

Sylvermynx

No, keep the proposed changes

CipherNine wrote: »

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

I think your suggestion goes too far in the direction of 'freedom'. Racial identities is an important factor in TES lore, and to completely rid the game of them would be gutting part of the game's soul. I have suggested something similar a few times, which I feel melds both the importance of racial distinction and the idea of fitting multiple roles.

Did you even actually play the other ES games? They were not how you describe. All the other games had 100% freedom to play any race however the hell you wanted. The racials in all the other games were so negligible they didn't matter at all. They were just minimal bonus that made each race unique. Nothing that had a big impact on gameplay. Which is how it should be and how you say is how the TES world has always been.

Um. The "other games" were SPMR. That was one character at a time, playing through the single player content. That has no relevance to an MMO....

CipherNine

Yes, I like it

Sylvermynx wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

I think your suggestion goes too far in the direction of 'freedom'. Racial identities is an important factor in TES lore, and to completely rid the game of them would be gutting part of the game's soul. I have suggested something similar a few times, which I feel melds both the importance of racial distinction and the idea of fitting multiple roles.

Did you even actually play the other ES games? They were not how you describe. All the other games had 100% freedom to play any race however the hell you wanted. The racials in all the other games were so negligible they didn't matter at all. They were just minimal bonus that made each race unique. Nothing that had a big impact on gameplay. Which is how it should be and how you say is how the TES world has always been.

Um. The "other games" were SPMR. That was one character at a time, playing through the single player content. That has no relevance to an MMO....

lol bs. This is still suppose to be an ES game. Are you trying to say that other ES games should have no relevance to ESO cause that is absurd. Let all the people that love ES and play this because it's suppose to be an ES game leave and see how many people are left

Vapirko

No, keep the proposed changes

It's too much "freedom." As others have states, what will happen is that a single BiS selection of passives will emerge and you will play that or fall behind in raw damage, stats, recovery etc. I understand it's personal preference and some people like the idea of choosing races based on certain things and others like the idea of playing any race aesthetically and choosing passives. For me, honestly I could not care too much one way or the other, but if forced to make a choice I like having some restrictions left in builds and not just having access to all the best things all the time and I sincerely doubt ZOS will go in this direction. They might make some adjustments to the current changes but that would likely be all.

AcadianPaladin

I have a better idea

I'd like to see race selection have exactly the same impact on combat performance as gender selection. Let folks play the race and gender they want based purely on their roleplaying desires (without regard to combat bonuses/penalties) because doing so hurts or influences exactly no one.

ElliottXO

I have a better idea

Too much complexity. Pick a cosmetic race, then pick a 'history/childhood' that grants you the racial bonus.

mxxo

Yes, I like it

I would really appreciate such a system since it is game enhancing & freedom in one.

My Main is Dunmer and i rly dont like the changes.. but i think we´ve made enough trouble in the forum, so if Zos rly thinks the new system is for the better... then i will accept it & adapt since i love the game. Even if the Dunmer thingie is hard to swallow for me personally.

Actually_Goku

Vapirko wrote: »

It's too much "freedom." As others have states, what will happen is that a single BiS selection of passives will emerge and you will play that or fall behind in raw damage, stats, recovery etc. I understand it's personal preference and some people like the idea of choosing races based on certain things and others like the idea of playing any race aesthetically and choosing passives. For me, honestly I could not care too much one way or the other, but if forced to make a choice I like having some restrictions left in builds and not just having access to all the best things all the time and I sincerely doubt ZOS will go in this direction. They might make some adjustments to the current changes but that would likely be all.

It’s been that way for 3 years. 80% of the game right now is either Altmer or Redguard, with a few Orcs and Wood Elves for PVP.

Actually_Goku

Either way, this poll has thus far shown how divided the community is on racial passives.

Sylvermynx

No, keep the proposed changes

ElliottXO wrote: »

Too much complexity. Pick a cosmetic race, then pick a 'history/childhood' that grants you the racial bonus.

Like earlier TES games.... but I'm not sure that lesser level of simplicity would make anyone (except someone like me) happy.

RedFireDisco

I have a better idea

I think there has to be a trade off when you pick a race.

Sustain vs damage

Tankiness vs damage

That sort of thing. The problem with the Dark Elf/High Elf situation is that Altmers have better sustain and damage with the new patch, in fact, I'd rather roll and Altmer STAMBLADE than a Dunmer one because of the sustain to cloak.

There needs to be a massive improvement before this goes live.

Give every race 2 unique passives and then let them pick 3 from a pool. That would be fair

rexagamemnon

Yes, I like it

I definately like it, its not a perfect system though

idk

We should provide feedback. More than I want the numbers to be different. Logic and reasoning work best.

uFuqinwitme

Yes, I like it

No matter which option Zenmiax goes with, now or in the future, there will be a portion of the playerbase that will feel that they are negatively influenced by the changes. Unfortunately thats a side product of being human.

Some people love the idea of races being unique, and prefer the idea of them not just being a different face. Why should a short race have the same options of being as tough as a giant like Nords? Obviously its a fictional landscape where body mass might even be different for races, but for the most part some people feel this way, and that is a fair line of judgement.

On the other hand, some people believe that "play how you want" should come with the inclusion of playing any race you want and having the exact same capabilities in any situation. I follow this idea myself, but I can see why in a playerbase that spans from weekend roleplayers to full time record breakers that some with disagree with this approach.

Whatever you suggest or they go with, just know that a percentage of people will never be happy with the way the game is, and that the game may never stay one way because of that.

Seebs

Yes, I like it

This is basically what I thought they were going to do with the race changes. If someone wants to be a redguards healer or a high elf stamblade, let them without any difficulties. Instead we still have bis races and everyone is going to just play those.

LiquidPony

I have a better idea

I like the idea in general (choice), I'd just sort of go about it in a different way.

I'd get rid of combat-related racial passives altogether and create a new "specialization" or "profession" type system with morphable combat passives and maybe even skills.

I don't think ZOS's proposed changes are bad either. It's just that it's extraordinarily lazy. Where's the ambition and creativity?
Shake things up, give us the power to choose. All they've done is simplify some things and tweak some values. This "big racial update" looks like the result of a quick meeting and an hour of work. I'd like to think we deserve better than that.

The solution of decoupling racial passives from combat has been around for ages. It's the obvious answer. And yet after 5 years, all we get is "changed +20% max magicka to +2000 max magicka." Whoop-dee-doo. What a letdown.

zaria

CipherNine wrote: »

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

I think your suggestion goes too far in the direction of 'freedom'. Racial identities is an important factor in TES lore, and to completely rid the game of them would be gutting part of the game's soul. I have suggested something similar a few times, which I feel melds both the importance of racial distinction and the idea of fitting multiple roles.

Did you even actually play the other ES games? They were not how you describe. All the other games had 100% freedom to play any race however the hell you wanted. The racials in all the other games were so negligible they didn't matter at all. They were just minimal bonus that made each race unique. Nothing that had a big impact on gameplay. Which is how it should be and how you say is how the TES world has always been.

In the other games they was starting bonuses. As stats and attributes increased they became negligible.
In ESO they are endgame bonuses.

Morphs or highest should work, very happy with Khajiit and Dunmer chances but don't think they will do that on all races.