Does Necromancy and Dragons fit into the Lore of TES: Online - Yes it does, perfectly in fact!

perogwin_ESO

I posted this in response to yet another one of the "They are Breaking the Lore by adding Necros and Dragon" threads. Even though giving it its own post wont stop the Lore Mongers from trying to rip the expansion apart I think its is very good information to share on exactly how the upcoming expansion info will fit into TES ESO Lore.

There are a lot of people running around who say they know the lore, but don't actually bother to investigate it, because if they did they would realize just how little they actually know.

Necromancy

It is not against the lore at all for Necromancy to be added, especially in Elsweyr

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy

Let me highlight a very specific point for you from Lore:

Elsweyr

Elsweyr is said to be relatively accommodating to necromancy. The Khajiit are said to show little if any outrage over uncovered graves, and corpses can apparently be purchased in the port of Senchal. Though corpses don't hold up well in the forests, the deserts of Elsweyr preserve corpses for centuries, allowing skilled necromancers to make use of them relatively easily. The way the bodies are buried in the deserts, under only a small cairn of stones, is also ideal for necromancers on the prowl for resources

So if they were going to add a Necromancer Class, Elsweyr is the best area for it to be added.

I was hoping it would be added when they finally got around to doing the College of Winterhold since it is even TAUGHT there, but this will do.

Quoted From Lore: "At the prestigious College of Winterhold, it is even considered a legitimate arcane study, provided it is done discreetly and in accordance with the College's rules".

Dragons

As for the Dragons, as long as there aren't a ton of them and they are mainly Trial/Dungeon based (heck even a single World Boss) then they will fit in fine.

Again, look into the lore before you say they don't fit. It isn't until the time of the Skyrim Game (which isn't until the 4th Era) that they are considered extinct after the dealings with Alduin

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragons

From Lore:

"Many held the belief that the dragons were extinct. This was not true, as live dragons continued to exist throughout the Third and early Fourth Era. Nomads in the Alik'r Desert frequently spoke of "Great Wyrms" inhabiting its vast wastes, although these claims were never independently confirmed. The Akatosh Chantry hold dragons as their holy symbol, and keep tamed dragons in their "sacred grove". Many ancient legends tell of dragons making deals with other races to protect themselves. According to Brarilu Theran, at least one dragon is known to have laired in the smoking ruins of Vvardenfell after the Red Year, long after the cliff racers were driven off by Saint Jiub."

If they existed through out the 3rd and early 4th it means they are alive during the ESO time line since it is just passed the middle of the 2nd Era, so again, as long as there isn't one lurking at every turn they fit perfectly well in the ESO Timeline

Another bit of info from Lore:

"After being largely absent from the affairs of Tamriel for hundreds of years, dragons reappeared en masse in Skyrim and Morrowind in 4E 201 thanks to the return of Alduin."

Note that they are described as "Being Absent from the Affairs of Tamriel" nothing about them being extinct.

What annoys me the most about all these Lore Mongers coming out of the woodwork is that almost all of them get their info from the Skyrim game. Skyrim takes place in 4E 201, ESO is currently taking place in 2E 583 - Skyrim wont happen for about 1000 years from when ESO is currently happening.

In fact the first game in the Elder Scrolls "Main" series (Arena) doesn't take place till E3 370, over 600 years from where we are now in game. If you include the Extended Elder Scrolls Universe Games the first game after ESO chronologically is still 298 years in the future from the current time line, and that is The Redguard Game.

<Please note each of the lore pages I linked have full reference numbers and citations on where the info was found for people who will think this stuff is made up, so you can look into it yourself>


THE MORE YOU KNOW...

SirAndy

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

Does Necromancy and Dragons fit into the Lore of TES

I'm probably stating the obvious here but *lore* is whatever ZOS decides they want it to be.
That's how lore works, someone simply makes it up.

If ZOS wants dragons and necromancers, they'll change/add lore that explains how both are perfectly fine where and when they want them to be.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but lore ain't real folks ...

perogwin_ESO

SirAndy wrote: »

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

Does Necromancy and Dragons fit into the Lore of TES

I'm probably stating the obvious here but *lore* is whatever ZOS decides they want it to be.
That's how lore works, someone simply makes it up.

If ZOS wants dragons and necromancers, they'll change/add lore that explains how both are perfectly fine where and when they want them to be.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but lore ain't real folks ...

You are quite right Sir, but it helps that the precedent for these two things already exists in established lore to make it even easier.

kathandira

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

As for the Dragons, as long as there aren't a ton of them and they are mainly Trial/Dungeon based (heck even a single World Boss) then they will fit in fine.

I know there are many who are still in love with Skyrim (deservingly so, amazing game), maybe we don't even get to "fight" a dragon. Perhaps we find a dragon NPC who is inured and in hiding. Perhaps said dragon is basically our main driver for the questing in Elsweyr.

It could be anything really.

eso_nya

"Dragonbreak", "Timetravel", "Its Magic! Duh!" theres enough excuses already to rip lore apart in favor of the crownstore

Shezzarrine

This is all true, but my main problem is that the article mentions it being a "war against the Dragons" which sounds like many dragons and that wouldnt fit within the lore of the time.

Just pure speculation here but, even though the Ka Po Tun are not Khajiit, maybe the dragons in this expansion are somehow related to Tosh Raka in some way. Such as some Khajiit mantling dragons or something along those lines. Would be an interesting way to tie Khajiit and the Ka Po Tun together.

perogwin_ESO

kathandira wrote: »

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

As for the Dragons, as long as there aren't a ton of them and they are mainly Trial/Dungeon based (heck even a single World Boss) then they will fit in fine.

I know there are many who are still in love with Skyrim (deservingly so, amazing game), maybe we don't even get to "fight" a dragon. Perhaps we find a dragon NPC who is inured and in hiding. Perhaps said dragon is basically our main driver for the questing in Elsweyr.

It could be anything really.

This is totally correct, but since one of the tag lines for the year is "The Season of the Dragon Approaches", I feel it might be a little more involved then this.

kathandira

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

As for the Dragons, as long as there aren't a ton of them and they are mainly Trial/Dungeon based (heck even a single World Boss) then they will fit in fine.

I know there are many who are still in love with Skyrim (deservingly so, amazing game), maybe we don't even get to "fight" a dragon. Perhaps we find a dragon NPC who is inured and in hiding. Perhaps said dragon is basically our main driver for the questing in Elsweyr.

It could be anything really.

This is totally correct, but since one of the tag lines for the year is "The Season of the Dragon Approaches", I feel it might be a little more involved then this.

That it could be, but which side are we on?

As I typed that, I just thought how neat it would be if we got to decide who's side we are on. I would love to choose, and see some of the effects of that choice.

JamuThatsWho

The Elsweyr chapter will, without a shadow of a doubt, be all about the Knahaten Flu. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that the "dragons" we'll be dealing with are the servants of Peryite.

perogwin_ESO

Shezzarrine wrote: »

This is all true, but my main problem is that the article mentions it being a "war against the Dragons" which sounds like many dragons and that wouldnt fit within the lore of the time.

Just pure speculation here but, even though the Ka Po Tun are not Khajiit, maybe the dragons in this expansion are somehow related to Tosh Raka in some way. Such as some Khajiit mantling dragons or something along those lines. Would be an interesting way to tie Khajiit and the Ka Po Tun together.

Interesting point, people have been clamoring for things like the Ka Po Tun and Tang Mo to be made a part of ESO almost as long as they have been asking for Necromancers. Will be interesting to see where it all goes from here!

kathandira

JamuThatsWho wrote: »

The Elsweyr chapter will, without a shadow of a doubt, be all about the Knahaten Flu. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that the "dragons" we'll be dealing with are the servants of Peryite.

That would be a great tie in.

perogwin_ESO

JamuThatsWho wrote: »

The Elsweyr chapter will, without a shadow of a doubt, be all about the Knahaten Flu. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that the "dragons" we'll be dealing with are the servants of Peryite.

OH, I like this! In fact when I was looking into the lore for the time lines I did come across an interesting tidbit:

"2E 603 — Last documented case of the Knahaten Flu.
- Even after the plague passed, non-Argonians tended to avoid Black Marsh out of fear."

This bit of information means there is exactly 20 years from the current in game year (2E 583) till this happens. I wonder if we will have a hand in finding a cure but it just takes a while till the cure is in full effect?

kathandira

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

JamuThatsWho wrote: »

The Elsweyr chapter will, without a shadow of a doubt, be all about the Knahaten Flu. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that the "dragons" we'll be dealing with are the servants of Peryite.

OH, I like this! In fact when I was looking into the lore for the time lines I did come across an interesting tidbit:

"2E 603 — Last documented case of the Knahaten Flu.
- Even after the plague passed, non-Argonians tended to avoid Black Marsh out of fear."

this bit of information means there is exactly 20 years from the current in game year (2E 583) till this happens. I wonder if we will have a hand in it?

Hmm. That makes me wonder. How long has it been since the start of ESO, to now in the timeline? Could it be fair to say the time between the Sload Incident and the Nocturnal Situation to now has been close to 10-20 years?

perogwin_ESO

kathandira wrote: »

Hmm. That makes me wonder. How long has it been since the start of ESO, to now in the timeline? Could it be fair to say the time between the Sload Incident and the Nocturnal Situation to now has been close to 10-20 years?

This might help:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Second_Era

This link takes you to the 2ND Era timeline - across the top you can view the other time lines as well if you are interested.

Based on this time line "We" only became the "Souless One" just over 2 years ago in game world time.

Seems we have had a VERY busy 2 years....

kathandira

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Hmm. That makes me wonder. How long has it been since the start of ESO, to now in the timeline? Could it be fair to say the time between the Sload Incident and the Nocturnal Situation to now has been close to 10-20 years?

This might help:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Second_Era

This link takes you to the 2ND Era timeline - across the top you can view the other time lines as well if you are interested.

Based on this time line "We" only became the "Souless One" just over 2 years ago in game world time.

Seems we have had a VERY busy 2 years....

LOL! Indeed. You'd think we'd have a few more mentions in the timeline.

In regards to the Flu, it would be a little strange that we are only now addressing it.

2E 560 The Knahaten Flu originates in Stormhold.

2E 582 — Tamrielic invasion of Coldharbour.

Even at this, it has been happening for 22 years, and we really haven't done anything about it at all.

2E 603 — Last documented case of the Knahaten Flu.

But with this, I guess enough is enough, and it is time to put an end to this plague as I think we are here in the time line (below)

2E 583 — The Remnant of Argon is recovered and the Root-Whisper tribe are restored

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Just to add for reference's to Tamriel history and copy's of every book in the TES universe....

https://www.imperial-library.info/

Aliyavana

Ah, a fellow man/women of culture using UESP as a source.

perogwin_ESO

kathandira wrote: »

I think we are here in the time line (below)

2E 583 — The Remnant of Argon is recovered and the Root-Whisper tribe are restored

Yup that was added when Murkmire came out

perogwin_ESO

Aliyavana wrote: »

Ah, a fellow man/women of culture using UESP as a source.

By far one of the best and well done lore sites, especially with all the footnotes for reference!

Hymzir

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

Does Necromancy and Dragons fit into the Lore of TES

I'm probably stating the obvious here but *lore* is whatever ZOS decides they want it to be.
That's how lore works, someone simply makes it up.

If ZOS wants dragons and necromancers, they'll change/add lore that explains how both are perfectly fine where and when they want them to be.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but lore ain't real folks ...

You are quite right Sir, but it helps that the precedent for these two things already exists in established lore to make it even easier.

Hate to break it to you, but ZOS doesn't really care about about precedents or established things, and neither does Bethesda. All they care about is trying to cram enough hot ticket item stuff, into their next installment, to maximize potential buyer base.

Elder Scrolls does not have a carefully constructed and maintained "lore" - every single game is basically it's own thing, and they change anything from the past that does not suit their current frame of reference.

There is enough accumulated bits of lore by this point, that if you shift through enough of it, you can justify just about any theory or explanation you can come up with. Despite all the claims from ZOS to care about this stuff, it is clear from what they've come up so far, that it really is just an afterthought.

For example, I highly doubt that they thought about the bits you found justifying necromancy in Elsweyr (cool as they are), when they decided to give the players the much requested Necromancer class (Assuming, that it is indeed, what is happening with the next expansion.) Sucha decision is far more likely based on the simple reasoning of: "The players want it, therefore cram it into the next installment, and we'll sell a ton of these things." Any lore that surfaces to support this decision is just and added benefit, and any that would go against it can always be changed. Unreliable narrator and transcription error for the win.

In fact I'd be surprised if any of the things previously mentioned about necromancy in Elsweyr appeared in the "chapter" at all. I'd be really surprised and impressed, if you could actually go and buy materials from corpse merchants in Senchal. That'd be a pretty neat thing, to separate the Khajit mentality towards Necromancy, from the way people feel towards it in other cultures. Khajiti morals are, after all, based on rather different principles.

The point I'm striving towards is, that there may very well be, established lore lurking about that supports the design choices made. However, in the end it doesn't really matter, since they're bound to just spin some new yarns to explain whatever it is they end up doing, there is very little reason to expect it to conform with anything previously established, and the reasons behind these design choices have nothing to do with lore in the first place.

We will see what it ends up being, once it is released, and then we can talk about it as much as we want, and whether it is implemented well or not. At this point, everything is just a big question mark, and there is no way to know what bits of previously established stuff end up correlating with their latest concoction.

And thus I come to my ultimate point - There is very little point in being serious about Elder Scrolls lore, fun as such activity can be, for the people behind the Elder Scrolls do not take it seriously themselves. The lore is whatever it needs to be to push the latest product, but lore is never the product in question itself.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

*Prepares Summoning Ritual*
*Rattles Bones! Throws Powders on Brazier*

"We Summon Thee!!!!" @ZOS_Lawrence_Schick ! "Klatu, Arknar, Gygax"! We summon you!!

But seriously, what is your take and say on this Oh Revered Loremaster?
Was there discussion with Bethesda about the issues discussed here?
Please Help us Oh Great One! Or maybe Zeb?

Recremen

I am totally fine with necromancers being added as a class, I just hope they do it like with wardens and Morrowind and not have it actually be A Thing as far as the plot goes. Though that's more because necromancers are icky and I don't want them associated with beauteous cat heaven Elsweyr.

Aliyavana

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

*Prepares Summoning Ritual*
*Rattles Bones! Throws Powders on Brazier*

"We Summon Thee!!!!" @ZOS_Lawrence_Schick ! "Klatu, Arknar, Gygax"! We summon you!!

But seriously, what is your take and say on this Oh Revered Loremaster?
Was there discussion with Bethesda about the issues discussed here?
Please Help us Oh Great One! Or maybe Zeb?

from his activity, I don't think he is active on the eso forums, ive seen him more active on the eso subreddit

zyk

I don't care whether it makes sense according to established lore.

What bothers me is that they're obviously playing to the crowd at this point. That is a death spiral for all good fiction.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Aliyavana wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

*Prepares Summoning Ritual*
*Rattles Bones! Throws Powders on Brazier*

"We Summon Thee!!!!" @ZOS_Lawrence_Schick ! "Klatu, Arknar, Gygax"! We summon you!!

But seriously, what is your take and say on this Oh Revered Loremaster?
Was there discussion with Bethesda about the issues discussed here?
Please Help us Oh Great One! Or maybe Zeb?

from his activity, I don't think he is active on the eso forums, ive seen him more active on the eso subreddit

True...Oh well, we can hope!!! Huzzah!!

LuckyLuke

I thought spinners could weave just about anything into the story.

Banana

I like new stuff

Watchdog

Existence and abundance are two different things.

Dragons and Necromancers do exist in the lore, however, there should not be one of each per every common citizen of Tamriel.

Recremen

Watchdog wrote: »

Existence and abundance are two different things.

Dragons and Necromancers do exist in the lore, however, there should not be one of each per every common citizen of Tamriel.

There are literally millions of players but only a few thousand regular citizens in Tamriel. At some point you have to assume that the in-game world isn't a 1:1 scale of the intended universe, but instead illustrative and interesting but with many concessions taken to ensure good gameplay that's feasible on modern systems. Thus, while we may have a couple million new necromancers running around come the patch drop, we shouldn't assume that they're actually intended to outnumber regular citizens any more than the infinitely-respawning necromancer NPCs are.

M_Volsung

Pelinal Whitestrake was a synth.

primethief147

zyk wrote: »

I don't care whether it makes sense according to established lore.

What bothers me is that they're obviously playing to the crowd at this point. That is a death spiral for all good fiction.

Lets be real here of course they're going to play towards the crowd. We have known they've been doing this since the first chapter just like we know for sure the next chapter will most likely be western skyrim.